Can We Eventually Have a Game Mode Without Exhaustion?

[Ertzi]

Hey, developers. Any way to persuade you to add a game mode where you would never die to exhaustion? You can do this when all the other core thingies are done. I love every other mechanic in the game and I would love to be able to play dungeons with my friends without any rush. I dig the slow character progression and the importance of items (when I remember to use them -- but that's on me), I love building the decks and molding the characters to my play style, I enjoy the tactical combat immensely. It's fun to unlock the map little by little and discover new enemies and locations. Simply put, I am a huge fan of the game... except for one thing. Exhaustion.

I know, I know. All you veterans are about to rage explode right now at this suggestion. Listen, you can still play on your insane difficulty and have fun your way. I am not taking anything away from you. I am merely asking for a "casual" mode, where I could enjoy exploring the dungeons and having the delicious tactical dilemmas without the annoying nagging thought of "should I already start to run towards the next room because my cards might run out".

I get that exhaustion is a very core concept of the original game. I am simply asking for more modes down the road for the digital version. No need to deny this kind of gameplay from others, even though you would not enjoy it. More modes is always better, because more ways to play and enjoy the game = more players. Win-win, right? I am only asking to work on this after everything else. Please focus on the core elements & the campaign next. It's just that the only way I ever lose is to the deck running out, and it's annoying the crap out of me, because I love everything else and I don't want the scenarios to end "just because". I am usually easily winning, but then I just die because the rules say so. I would rather die from damage, thank you very much. You can even make the encounters way more difficult in the non-exhaust mode, I would not care. I only want the time aspect gone from my games, so I can only focus on the tactical battle and on out-witting my enemies. I cannot be the only one who feels like this.

If you don't ever want to officially implement this even as an opt-in feature, I hope someone makes a mod for it. That is the first thing I would mod out in a heart beat. I am still having fun and enjoying the game with the exhaustion mechanic, but it could be so much better for players who are like me and do not like to be rushed.

Thanks!

[Caton]

exhaustion comes when you run out of cards, and you run out of cards when you use powerful cards that are burned on use. Those card are more OP and the disadvantage is to be burned and after you burn some of them you become exhausted. So what you are asking is to remove all those OP cards (removing only the burn tag would only make the normal cards very underpowerred), or to do a new whole card system, that is the core of the game....

So, which one of the two choices are you asking for exactly?

[Ertzi]

Originally posted by Caton:

exhaustion comes when you run out of cards, and you run out of cards when you use powerful cards that are burned on use. Those card are more OP and the disadvantage is to be burned and after you burn some of them you become exhausted. So what you are asking is to remove all those OP cards (removing only the burn tag would only make the normal cards very underpowerred), or to do a new whole card system, that is the core of the game....

So, which one of the two choices are you asking for exactly?

I am aware how the game works. I am not asking to remove anything. Cards can easily be shuffled back into the deck in all card games. Maybe do that automatically when you use your last two cards? What I am asking for exactly is a game mode where there isn't any kind of feeling of rushing for any reason. If the cards would be more powerful as a result, make the enemies more powerful as well. I am aware this would need some development time to balance everything etc. I am not a game designer, so I don't know exactly how it would be best to implement. I just dislike my mercenaries suddenly exhausting, as it feels like an artificial "you lose" button. I usually hate those in games. This one is no exception. Exhaustion also works as a time limit to the scenarios, even if some people cannot see it, and I am always against time limits. I love the game so far, so I am trying to make it even better for myself.

[[OTG]teuchy]

In addition to a casual mode, this might be interesting in an "endless" mode - where you fight waves of enemies and the waves get tougher as you go (perhaps with your deck resetting at the end of each wave).

To Caton's point though, it does imbalance the cards.

[Спартак здесь?]

i think this mode will eventually make its way into the game, because boardgame has one too.

[Ertzi]

Originally posted by Спартак здесь?:

i think this mode will eventually make its way into the game, because boardgame has one too.

It does? This is very cool. Anyway, it's just a hope, not a necessity. Just cleared a few scenarios with a friend again pretty easily, even with the exhaustion. Sometimes exhaustion even adds a fun excitement to the encounters, but I would still love to have the option to play without it.

[Спартак здесь?]

Originally posted by Ertzi:

Originally posted by Спартак здесь?:

i think this mode will eventually make its way into the game, because boardgame has one too.

It does? This is very cool. Anyway, it's just a hope, not a necessity. Just cleared a few scenarios with a friend again pretty easily, even with the exhaustion. Sometimes exhaustion even adds a fun excitement to the encounters, but I would still love to have the option to play without it.

yep, its called "playing three spears"

[forcecomdr]

+1

I almost made a very similar thread this morning.

Like you, i get that it's a core mechanic of the game and as such is unlikely to change; but i would really like a mode like this as well.

I've been forcing myself to try to like this game because in theory it's almost exactly what me and my friends want, a co-op, turn based dungeon crawler. However in practice my friends have already stopped playing as they find it tedious and i'm hanging by a thread.

I find the exhaustion mechanic... well, exhausting.

I have no problem with the difficulty, but i'm a cautious and methodical player who likes to take my time and set things up exactly how i want it. The card limit makes this a costly and risky play style as every round brings you closer to failure... even if you're actually winning.

[ExperimentalGamer]

How would that work? I mean, I could see the devs leaving in something that modders could activate that would remove the need to burn a card during a rest. Burns because the card calls for it or because of damage would be much harder to meaningfully take out. But yeah, I have no intrinsic problem with letting modders turn off the clock.

(Edit: Alternately, there are effects that get back both discarded and burnt cards. Applying "get all your discards back at end of round" and "get all your burns back at end of round" should be doable as a tourist mode mod. Still something best left to modders.)

That said...

Originally posted by forcecomdr:

I have no problem with the difficulty, but i'm a cautious and methodical player who likes to take my time and set things up exactly how i want it. The card limit makes this a costly and risky play style as every round brings you closer to failure... even if you're actually winning.

I'm cautious and methodical too, and will often spend turns to grab all the gold in a room and/or apply ticks to achievements instead of pressing ever forwards. I also have to make a conscious effort to use Reviving Ether on my spellweaver (again, achievement ticks), because it's not rare for me to be near or at the end of the level while she still has cards in hand. I'm not going to force people to play against the clock if they really don't like it, but the clock is nowhere near as harsh as some people seem to think either.

[Brynnvincible]

It would unbalance the game to do this. Burning, discarding, recovering, etc. is a core game mechanic. It is at the centre of the tactical decisions you make when you play. You can use Stamina potions, or characters with recovery abilities to extend the number of cards you get to reuse in a scenario.

[ZexxCrine]

criticism is fine and all, but your asking for a fundimentally impossible thing. you can always mod in something like this I guess, but you are asking for a mode with 0 challenge, 0 choices, 0 consequences and 0 way to lose. im not sure that this is the solution that you think it is. this is just activating god mode. due to burning and exaustion being key aspects of the game's design, the game loses actually everything if its no longer a factor.

im all for adding accessability options, easier modes, harder modes etc but your asking for a completely different game, and at that point maybe play another game? divinity original sin 2 is a fantastic 4 player co-op turn based rpg. diablo and torchlight are great realtime co-op dungeon crawlers. and the tales series games like tales of vesperia and berseria are great action based rpgs with great co-op through steam play together or parsec.

this game just isn't for you and thats ok.

[jep]

Yeah, I just can't see an easy "fix" for it, either (not that I think that it's broken). It's like just giving everyone the ability to heal 8 instead of 2 when Long Resting. Okay, so now you gotta balance that, or the challenge will be less. And yes, there are probably plenty of people that feel like managing your HP is exhausting.

And the exhaustion system is inextricably intertwined with the HP system. You have to decide if it's worth not taking damage by burning an available card, or 2 discarded ones. Because that will lead to quicker exhaustion. It's all about managing all those things. And I get the desire for a more casual gameplay, but that's what cranking down the difficulty is for.

Asking for chess pawns to move diagonally is a simple ask, but it doesn't necessarily produce a good game. You're not asking for a "mode", but a fundamentally different game.

(And I am also slow and methodical about things. I take about an hour per mission.)

[Ertzi]

Originally posted by ZexxCrine:

this game just isn't for you and thats ok.

Maybe not tell me what I like, especially when I have been praising pretty much everything else about the game in several threads. This kind of off the cuff comment is too easy to just say and is ignorant and unnecessary. Thanks for at least being polite about it. I'm just not a fan of knee-jerk reactions. Let me say this even more clearly. I like this game very much. I have already brought 3 friends to it. I will continue playing it. Giving opinions and suggestions does not immediately mean one should stop playing the game. It is only because I care so much that I even make these suggestions. I will play this a long time. I will probably make more annoying threads about game features in the future.

Originally posted by jep:

You're not asking for a "mode", but a fundamentally different game.

Originally posted by ZexxCrine:

you are asking for a mode with 0 challenge, 0 choices, 0 consequences and 0 way to lose

I completely disagree with these two sentences. It would be very possible to maintain the same gameplay and keep the challenge. There is still health, and my mercenaries drop all the time. There already is 0 consequences, as we lose nothing after failing a scenario (which I love by the way, exactly because of the exhaustion mechanic). It is definitely possible, but if the developers are dead set against such a mode, no need to flog a dead horse. I wanted to mention it, however, to give some perspective for a certain play style. I often find games that are nigh perfect, but then they add some sort of time limit element to them. Usually I skip them. Gloomhaven is way too good otherwise to skip. In fact, it is awesome as a co-op game even now in early access.

Originally posted by forcecomdr:

I have no problem with the difficulty, but i'm a cautious and methodical player who likes to take my time and set things up exactly how i want it. The card limit makes this a costly and risky play style as every round brings you closer to failure... even if you're actually winning.

You get it. You are exactly like me. You either understand this mindset or you don't. I know it will feel very alien to all the speedy & super efficient players out there. I like to durdle. I like to try stuff just to try it. I want to end a scenario whenever I feel like it. Another example would be games that force you to go forward with a cutscene immediately after a boss fight. "Nooooo! There was still loot and exploration to do!" Basically I just hate being rushed along in my games, and this is just something that is innate to me for some reason.

I will just wait for the mod then. It's fine.

[Mike Garrison]

Ertzi, here's a suggestion. Mock up some cards and play the game you envision on paper. See if it works. My guess is that you will find something that doesn't work about it.

Are you talking about getting rid of all burning, or just burning when resting? Burning when resting is fundamentally what gives a "time limit" to the game. If you still burn when using cards or avoiding damage, then you would still have "exhaustion" based on gameplay, but with no ticking clock of turns. Of course, then to have any meaning to the card system you would have to eliminate short rests. Otherwise you could just play your favorite card every single turn.

Maybe you would need to balance by taking damage on a long rest instead of healing it.

Anyway, I don't think you have thought through the consequences. I encourage experimenting. Game balance is sometimes hard to visualize unless you actually make some playthroughs.

[jep]

Here's just one example of why exhaustion is core to the design and you'd have to redesign a whole new game without it:

You have the Cragheart who has a card that allows you to create obstacles. So at the end of the level, you just wall up the one or two bad guys behind a wall. Now you'd be free to run around, getting all the gold you had to leave behind, healing as much as you want. Then you can go back and finish off the last two.

Or even without the obstacles, you can use other abilities that stun/disarm/immobilize, but might not actually kill the final attacker. Then you can go around healing and cheesing all the loot from everywhere. More gold means it's easier to afford enhancements and items, making your characters stronger. Now you need to make the enemies even stronger to avoid the characters being overleveled as the game progresses.

This is just one chain effect that demonstrates how all elements of a good game design have to come into balance. They all interlock.

And just to restate it because you did: I also like to durdle. :D My scenarios generally last an hour. I feel like that's BECAUSE I have to carefully weigh using/burning cards due to their limited amount.

[GeekFreak]

One way to implement it is to keep burn cards and have them disappear on use, but not to permanently discard cards upon rest. That way you COULD keep going indefinitely, even if all that you are using is less powerful cards.

In terms of keeping a time limit without using exhaustion, you might have randomly spawning monsters if you take too long to move on.

These two solutions would accomplish what op is talking about, removing exhaustion, while keeping the core ideas intact (having a time limit and needing to choose cards carefully)