Puzzle game billed as RPG

[e2808]

The games runs fine for me.
The graphics are very nice.
Absolutely miserable tutorial and early missions, you have to do the same puzzle mission over and over until you guess correctly.
Not a party game, you drop into a fight with one companion you do not get to choose, you fight many enemies. Sure the devs have done a lot of great work, a puzzle game should not be billed as RPG. Game is early access hopefully RPG is in this games future.

[FroBodine]

Miserable tutorial? I think the tutorial is outstanding and very well done. Sure, it needs some clear explanations of some of the game mechanics. I already wrote up a long list of tutorial issues that could be improved upon.

Why do you say it is miserable? It is one of the better tutorials designed for a digital version of a board game. I applaud the developers for creating it, and hope the add the improvements that have been suggested.

Sure, the tutorial has a puzzly aspect to it, but it's trying to teach you specific things and wants you to find a way to accomplish them. The game opens up greatly once you get your team together.

It will never be a full blown RPG. It's a board game that will have a massive campaign. You level up your dudes (get more cards and actions), find and equip loot, and a few other things. But, that's the game. It's not a puzzle game. It's a very tactical turn-based combat oriented game. There are always many ways to win fights and succeed, but the tutorial does have some specific puzzles to accomplish.

[e2808]

Points well taken Sir. After the miserable over 12 hours of puzzle infested tutorial this game looks like its opening up very nice. Some people will give up on this game before getting past the tutorial. Starting to see some RPG elements and a game with great potential.

[The Doctor]

Since you are talking about the tutorial, the puzzle is the lesson you're intended to learn. Teaching is often done by presenting a puzzle for the person to solve which requires them to USE that particular system. Since the tutorial IS your teacher, absent having a friend to help you, this is a gaood way to teach the player.

If they fail to solve the puzzle, they don't really understand the nature of the beast and need to reread and try again.

It IS an RPG game. it just uses puzzles to teach you the basics. ;) It's certainly NOT an easy game for people to pick up and play, expecially if they haven't played the board game first.

[FroBodine]

Well, I for one am very grateful that they designed a long and comprehensive tutorial. I LOVE the way it is integrated into the game, so you're actually playing while you're learning. There is nothing miserable about it for me. It's awesome.

But, I do think they should also have an option to skip all the introductory tutorial stuff, and let players have the option to skip all that and just start the game with their full guild and get started exploring in the main game.

That would be the best of both worlds. Give an option to skip the tutorial if someone wants to.

[Mr Queenie]

Included in the skip tutorial should be the further quests that as the OP says are one option puzzles. They feel very tedious, I get their intention but I got so bored.

[Oman]

If you select Quick Start you will skip all of the "puzzle" missions.

[The Flaming Red]

I must admit that the tutorial's rigidity can cause players to actually be confused. I know this as I've personally told someone who was in defeat loops in the middle of the tutorial to just skip the tutorial altogether and to learn while in open play.

There really needs to be a gap between teaching one the UI and basics in order to play, and the 'you have two turns to do pretty much the exact moves you need to to pass' puzzle tutorials. Yes, the latter does teach you things, but what you really need is an experimental phase (say, have all cards available to beat up two enemies, the goal is to win by whatever means one likes) to bridge the gap between 'here's the basics to play' and 'here's some specific mechanics, such as retaliate, disadvantaged attacks).

Honestly, some of these puzzles could be replaced with a far more open scenario with just tutorial messages on some basics of how a card works when played. You learn chess not by doing puzzles, but by going against an weak opponent / friend who is pretty much letting you win, and telling you the validity of moves as you play them.

[Ryan Dorkoski]

I think the tutorial is good, but maybe needs a short statement about how its meant to force the player through some rigid scenarios in order to get them thinking about things a certain way.

Just to let them know that the game will open up a bit after the tutorial.

[Xarxaal]

Really enjoyed the tutorial, I have the physical game which I enjoy and still haven't completed due mostly to work schedule. Although I tended to stick with the character I thought I would enjoy the most. These puzzles were great as it was fun to be forced out of the character I enjoyed the most and really got to delve in and appreciate the characters I never have tried and I may have a new favorite.

On the tutorial: I would have really REALLY liked a quick reload/redo for the mission. (I understand that it replays in case you missed the clue given) but it was frustrating if you mistakenly clicked the wrong action and then had to do the entire thing over.

Devs! You are doing an amazing job please keep up the good work!

[FroBodine]

Agreed. Keep up the good work, just don't take so long to keep doing it, please!

[spacedyemeerkat]

Originally posted by The Flaming Red:

I must admit that the tutorial's rigidity can cause players to actually be confused. I know this as I've personally told someone who was in defeat loops in the middle of the tutorial to just skip the tutorial altogether and to learn while in open play.

There really needs to be a gap between teaching one the UI and basics in order to play, and the 'you have two turns to do pretty much the exact moves you need to to pass' puzzle tutorials. Yes, the latter does teach you things, but what you really need is an experimental phase (say, have all cards available to beat up two enemies, the goal is to win by whatever means one likes) to bridge the gap between 'here's the basics to play' and 'here's some specific mechanics, such as retaliate, disadvantaged attacks).

Honestly, some of these puzzles could be replaced with a far more open scenario with just tutorial messages on some basics of how a card works when played. You learn chess not by doing puzzles, but by going against an weak opponent / friend who is pretty much letting you win, and telling you the validity of moves as you play them.

I think the other posters make good points but as a completely new player, I'd prefer the approach you outline. Lots of theory with rigid solutions isn't much fun for me. Spot-on with the chess analogy.

[proudy666]

Yep, I hate the tutorial. It's like you have to specifically get the right cards or it's a fail.. I tried to get my money back but, because the tutorial took over 4 hours to get through, they said I couldn't get a refund... So far, the game tutorial has been such a dour and overly-rigid experience.... I get it that it is there to give the player an idea of the mechanics and how to formulate a solution but, without some sort of assistance in the form of a GM-type npc figure, it just becomes frustrating and resentful with no kind of assistance to explain where you went wrong or how to approach the situation... A badly designed and frustrating tutorial... And the game itself is definitely looking amazing and I can't wait to play co-op but the tutorial feels like I've met the hardest boss ever...

[Fab]

Happy to know that I'm not the only one to think this tutorial is awfully frustrating.

[The Flaming Red]

Originally posted by proudy666:

Yep, I hate the tutorial. It's like you have to specifically get the right cards or it's a fail.. I tried to get my money back but, because the tutorial took over 4 hours to get through, they said I couldn't get a refund... So far, the game tutorial has been such a dour and overly-rigid experience.... I get it that it is there to give the player an idea of the mechanics and how to formulate a solution but, without some sort of assistance in the form of a GM-type npc figure, it just becomes frustrating and resentful with no kind of assistance to explain where you went wrong or how to approach the situation... A badly designed and frustrating tutorial... And the game itself is definitely looking amazing and I can't wait to play co-op but the tutorial feels like I've met the hardest boss ever...

Originally posted by Fab:

Happy to know that I'm not the only one to think this tutorial is awfully frustrating.

Seriously, skip the tutorial once you can move around and select cards and rest. The game is a fun turn based strategy, but you don't need to understand every detail. Turn it on easy, and play until you're comfortable. Outside the tutorial, losing isn't even losing as you keep the things you picked up during the level (gold, items, etc) and consumables don't get consumed... all you lose is the time you put in (if things are going badly in a dungeon, you can abandon the main objective and just grab all the loot about as damage limitation).

After several hours, you may want to revisit that tutorial to see if it teaches you anything at that stage, but I still firmly believe that there should be a tutorial gap between teaching you the UI and basic gameplay vs the little nuances (modifer decks, etc).

Your biggest challenge during the first few games will be 'stamina' management. To which the advice of 'avoid using burn cards during combat unless really needed' is the best piece of beginner advise I can give.

[Astral Projection]

Yep. Early tutorial missions horribly done. Mission 2 should not be a "puzzle" in a game this complex. Why would you even consider starting the player near death in a "tutorial" mission?

Its all really badly thought out and likely killing sales of this game - especially given the posts in this forum asking for refund due to bad tutorial.