Suggestions

[Greywolf]

Hi! (updated april 2019)

Thank you for bringing Gloomhaven to the video game industry. I always said that this game was and still is too heavy (not complex) to be a board game. It lacks streamlining and thus, even with four players, we forget things, too much ambiguity, etc. There is also lots of ambiguity and questioning as to what you can do or what the ennemies do. Here is a list of changes you should consider to both lighten your load as programmers and improving the game as a whole (you can still use the core rules of the game, you could make your own Gloomhaven like the guys who did Bloodbowl did with their Blitz version of the rules).


AI / Enemies
- Too much ambiguity here. We have simplified the rules for Focus here at home, we play with monsters going to nearest hero with their movement, not according to physical distance. Ties are still broken by initiative. This removes all ambiguity. Fortunately, the video game will not need this since the pc will take charge of the procedures here.

- We have replaced the random silly AI cards with an AI flow chart that monsters follow. They use their 8 cards, but no longer heal when they are at full HP, they no longer commit suicide, they no longer go all out attack without moving when there is no one around, etc. You should consider this seriously. Also, if you want the AI flowchart, I can send them to you. (This would be good for an alternate version like the bloodbowl guys did with their Blitz version of the game. it makes the AI dangerous and difficult to outsmart.)

- We have modified a few monsters to make it more in-character. Demons are spirits, so they cannot be poisoned as well as all the undeads. This too should be considered, it makes the game more challenging and thematic too.


Summons
- We have tweaked the useless summons (past level 2 monsters anyways) to reflect the gain in power of characters. Each summon gains a number of HPs equal to the character's level minus one plus their initial HPs. This way, each level the character gains, his summons are tougher and tougher. (Something to be considering since the summoner is underepowered like the lementalist compared to other characters. Since summons are not controlled by the player, they become useless once monsters do an average of 2-3 pts of damage per attack.)

- We also do the same with damage but at a lessened rate, like +1 at level 4, and +1 at level 8.

- Since multiple enhancement on summons are ridiculously expensive just to get two +1s, especially on high level ones (on top of summons being super weak) we ignore the additionnal cost for multiple enhancement on the summons side of the card as well as being able to enhance all basic attributes, not just those that are marked. (Another thing to consider, enhancing a summon should be cheaper than enhancing an attack or something else since it adds very little to the power of the summon considering how weak they are.)

- At first, we directly controled the summons, but when we were fighting level 3 or higher monsters, even controlling the summons was pointless as they are too weak and die the same round they are summoned or the next one. Sacrificing a card just to lose it in the same round or the next is stupid and thus summons were way too useless and not constructive (you feel like you lost your turn, which is a big no-no in modern games) in the game to be left unchanged. So we streamlined them, tweaked them to make them useful and pose a small threat to enemies of level 3 or higher, which is better than the no-threat they were. We also buffed the HP enhancement to +2 when buying a +1. +1 hp is insignificant and changes pretty much nothing with level 3+ monsters. (Something that should really be considered in the altered version of the game or a balance mod.)


Playing cards
- We have tweaked many cards that we considered useless. When leveling up, we feeled that it was more important to be torned in the choice of the two cards than just going "I'll take this one because the card can be used everywhere and is not super circumstantial." or "I'll choose a lower level card since the two cards that I can choose from are less useful than those of lower level." That last one should never happen. When your character goes up a level, his cards must be better than the ones he had to choose from in previous levels since he is supposed to learn more powerful techniques and spells... which is not the case in most characters.

- One-shot cards are usually useless at 80% of the time. They are too circumstancial and the worse of them are those that have double one-shots (top and bottom). Tweaking those cards would prove fruitful for the video game... or at least the alternate rules version. It made leveling up more interesting in our game as you are torned between two useful cards. ALL cards are now useful 80% in one way or the other. W have removed all double one-shots, removed one shot icons on cards that were not powerful enough to justify this (or tweaked them to make them more useful in more than one specific situation that occurs only once every four scenarios or worse).


Heroes
- Major balancing issues here.
Elementalist
The elementalist needs to have at least four mana available to do the same amount of damage the Sunkeeper or Beserker can do at the same level, which is absurd. The elementalist should get rewarded for each mana he pumps into his spell after the first one (Ex. : Three mana invested does an attack as per the card plus two). For each mana invested after the first, he would get an additionnal point of damage to reflect the difficulty and rarity of such occasions. The Elementalist is a highly circumstancial character that cannot be played with solo or a group that generates no mana (like being teamed up with the Soothsinger, Rogue, and Quartermaster for example). That is what we changed on all cards that requires 3 or more mana to pump to max power. Plus a permanent card power that allows the Elementalist to use mana in the same turn as it was generated for hist playing cards only... he's an elementalist, he knows how.
We also added 4 summons (for the four basic elements). I find it silly that an elementalist cannot summon elementals to fight for him.

Summoner
This character is totally useless. You are a summoner that cannot summon, because if he does he will become exhausted in two rests. Summoning only one creature is a joke since the summonings are super weak and pose no threat to enemies of level 3 or higher.
*The summoner should have 12 cards in hands.
* The abilities that allows him to get cards in his lost pile should be replaced (or if you want him to have 9 cards in hand, replace those with an ability like the Spellweaver which can get back all hist lost cards... which would be logical since the Summoner is an unlockable character and should have at least abilities as powerful as the default characters). The level 1 summon that does this at the bottom of the best summon at level 1 (I do not know why Isaac penalizes the Summoner so much, he puts this kind of ability at the bottom of the best level 1 summon. which is a big No No since the hero is already underpowered) was replaced with a Shield 2 Retaliate 2 Self.
We also changed the top portion of a level 1 card that affects all summons in a permanent way with "Do not gain XPs from summons until they are put in the lost pile. When a summons dies, you may put it in your discard pile instead of your lost pile by paying a number of HPs equal to its level."
We were also playing with the improved summons that I have mentioned above. This made the summoner as useful as any other. Sure, it needs more testing, but it is better than the one that came in the box who is vastly underpowered and can only summon one creature per scenario or otherwise gets exhausted within three rests that comes faster and faster as you lose more cards.
This hero is the most disappointing of all, even the elementalist is more useful by at least giving mana to other players when they play such characters even though he is very unbalanced compared to even the six basic characters.


Quartermaster
- This character is the one that gathers the most gold but has almost no cards that can be enhanced and those who can are almost not worth enhancing (I only enhanced three cards in my first playthrough because there are none to be enhanced that are worth wasting your money for). To remedy this, we have put enhancement circles on each cards with attacks and moves. I find it silly that only three cards in his entire deck of playing cards are worth enhancing and 80% of his cards cannot be enhanced,



etc.



Perks
- We have changed the rule for gaining checks. Since we forgot one game out of two the check mark challenge cards, we decided to remove them from the game. As a game designer and game designer director, I say that when you forget something in a game, it means it must be removed as it is over in things to remember to do.
- To reflect the torned choices we wanted to put into the playing cards of the heroes, we did the same thing with the perks gaining. Meaning that each hero can only get perks by gaining levels. So you need to choose wisely, specialize your character in a way to optimize his playing cards. It also encourages the retirement of characters since you get an extra perk for each additionnal retired character when you choose a new one.
- Events no longer make you lose or gain check marks. We have modified this with lost of HPs/Gain of gold instead at the beginning of the next adventure for road events and the Gain/lost of gold for city events.


Gold
- After playing for almost a year, we have noticed that there is simply not enough gold in a campaign to profit from enhancement. We are gaining gold equal to the level of the monsters (min. 1). That way, playing at harder difficulty is sure to be more rewarding and there is actually a reason to play higher level more than now. By doing this, we allowed each hero to enhance at least between two and four cards before they retire (especially the unlockable characters since they come in later in the game when surely the power of enhancement has been unlocked).



These items are only a portion of what is to be streamlined and balance. I am sure you can come up with even better ideas. But mine are there for the taking. We have tweaked the rules, remove excess manipulation and procedures that an average scenario can be played within 90 mins instead of 3h with four players. Which is a great improvement. Just the vast reduction in deck shuffling has shorten game time by alot. But since you are making a video game, this can be taken care by the computer, but I strongly suggest you use AI charts instead of randomized cards that makes the enemies do stupid things. It should be trashed and replaced.


If you need more info on which cards should be tweaked or improved, feel free to contact me. :)

[jokerjesterknave]

Or, they can do as promised and implement a digital copy of Gloomhaven, not Greywolf and Friends' home game that is mostly based on Gloomhaven. I would prefer Isaac Childres's design with his balance and idiosyncracies, rather than a rebalanced, streamlined, different game.

[Brynnvincible]

Hey Greywolf. We are first and foremost focused on making Gloomhaven with the standard rules defined by Isaac. We have created a new mode of play (our roguelike adventure mode) which will be the main focus of the first Early Access release, and we will then be focused on making the Campaign exactly as it is in the board game.

But we do appreciate your ideas, and I recommend you jump in during the early access phase and pitch your ideas to the community in the Discord channel. Anything that gains strong support from the community has a good chance of getting implemented.

[Greywolf]

Will do as the computer will take charge of all the procedures the game has.

Thank you for undertaking this project. Issac made a computer game on the table, too many procedures and small rules... although the core idea, especially the mechanic used for the cards in hand, is excellent. It needed another year of serious playtesting before its first release.

We will be able to make a game within 20 min instead of 200! :D

Maybe try to do like Bloodbowl guys did with their video game, make an modified more streamlined version of the game once the base game is done. :)

[Niekka]

Excellent suggestions on how the game could be improved here. Shame that they are tied to copying the original with the balance issues and all... One thing I would hope they'd change is to add more depth to the random encounters, so that there would be more basis on which to make a decision. Not restricted by amount of card text, after all. Wonder if the game will allow players to mod card texts (limited to numbers probably) and such to fix some of the balance stuff..?

[Greywolf]

A modding tool would surely help with everything. I would introduce my proper AI for ennemies. They are just too dumb and the system is super ambiguous on the table (but now, the computer will take care of it and no more ambiguosity).

[MrJane]

I disagree with about 90% of your suggestions. The summoner was a fantastic class. My buddy often saved us from death by proper placement of summons and thinking a few steps ahead.

We enhanced plenty of cards, especially after selling equipment upon retirement. Never saw an issue with this.

Just because you kept forgetting battle goals, doesn't make them flawed. We never forgot them and had tons of perks by the end of a character's run.

It sounds to me that you just didn't really know how to play that well and instead of learning to adapt, you changed the game to suit your needs. I doubt there are many people that would agree with this line of thinking.

As for the AI, maybe there is room for improvement? But not really. Obviously you thought the game was hard enough to change a whole bunch of rules to make it easier, so I don't think adjusting the AI is necessary.

The game is not perfect, but most of these suggestions are just... unfounded.

[Greywolf]

Also, do you control the summons? I bet you do, because if you play by the rules, they die the round they are summoned or the next when fighting monsters level 3 or higher because of the dumb AI they have.

Also, you seem to be subjective. I am objective here. The game is flawed on many degree and requires extensive playtesting to remove its major flaws. The main one being the ridiculous amount of procedures that bogs down gameflow. I truly enjoy the hero card system, it is really nice, but totally unbalanced and amateurish in design (but that is alright, Isaac is only one man, he cannot think and do everything, especially when doing a KS when his game was not finished, he had to rush to finish it to deliver).

But luckily, we have guys here who are making a video game of it so that all those lengthy and heavy procedures and all those small rules, plus the ambiguous AI will be taken cared of by our computers and consoles if they bring it there. Most of all, we will be able to play a full scenario within 20-30 min (or less) hopefully instead of 120-180 min. Can't wait to try the game here.

I am a game designer and a director too. I know when I see flaws in a game design. I did not make the game easier, in fact, with a proper AI and not some random crap, the game was much harder and every move was important. Not to mention it shortened each scenario's length by a good 30 min. So instead of taking 2-3 hours of time to finish a scenario, it took 90 min at most except for the longest scenarios in the book.

I have played several thousands of games in my life, some only once, a couple a dozens of times, a few hundreds of hours. I also see game prototypes every month if not every week and work on them with the designer so that it improves to the next level so that it has a chance to interest a publisher (or more clients on KS). I have been a game director for a good seven years now and a hardcore player since the 1980s. So please, do not insult me when you say my suggestions are unfounded. Play more games, especially modern ones first (avoid ameritrash), when you have learned how to play over 500 games, then see for yourself if Gloomhaven is such a great game.

[MrJane]

Again, I disagree. I too am a designer and have put countless hours into board games (and video games and card games). If you're insulted by someone merely disagreeing with you, that's your issue, but I will also insult you again and still say your suggestions are unfounded.

No, we don't control the summons. That's not the rule. (Also, assuming things without evidence weakens your credibility. Please don't do that.) The summoner class (and use of all summons) requires very careful play. Difficult to master, but certainly possible to someone that can think ahead.

The game was extensively play tested and refined for the second printing, which was not rushed (and was the version I played for a year and a half).

I will admit that some aspects were a bit clunky, and some of those were addressed in your initial post. My group used an app to handle the monsters (abilities, HP, conditions) and once that was done, we could easily play 3-4 encounters in an evening.

However, I still stand by my statements above. All of your suggestions were due to your own subjective feelings (that this SHOULD be one way, when it's not) or because you failed to follow instructions (forgetting to use battle goals). And saying 80% of one shot cards were useless is grossly overestimated. Yes, there were some, but we played every single class with our time on the game, and there were only a handful of cards we thought we no good (and tried anyway to make sure).

I am almost 40 and have played WELL over 500 games. GH is a fantastic game and it's outstanding sales and awards should be evidence enough to this fact.

[Greywolf]

There are no feelings in my suggestions and ideas (on my part, sorry if it sounds like that, text is kind of impersonal, I should add a couple of smilies). They were things we used to improve the gameflow and make things more fun, not easier. Beside, the post here is not abou if I am right or wrong, it is about giving the designers ideas and such. So if you want to discuss if I am right or wrong, start a new topic please.

Happy to know you have played many games and are a designer. :)

I do not really care about right or wrong, my goal here is not to get approval and attention, but to give feedback to the designers.

[Neonivek]

Here are my suggestions:

1) Flat out USE the common House Rule for Rolling Modifiers during Advantage and Disadvantage.

Which is that if you get a rolling modifier you keep drawing until you reach an end... and that is ONE draw. Then you do it a second time and compare (if you get ANOTHER rolling modifier then you start this process again).

The Rules as written have created an odd situation where most people avoid rolling modifiers.

In fact I have no idea why you do it the way that you do.

2) Do something about impossible Personal Quests
-It is extremely easy to render some personal quests impossible. While you COULD remove the cards from circulation... It would be preferable if there were alternate ways to complete them.

For example if a mission requires three "Swamp" missions and there are no Swamps missions left. Just unlock a special mission for that quest.

Or if it requires a specific item, just give a special "Ruined" version of that stage that only appears if you have that Personal Quest and the item.

At MINIMUM at least put those Personal Quests out of circulation... even if that means you have to chose another quest.

I am astonished after playing the game enough that you can get so many personal quests voided less than a fourth into the game... and make others a nearly herculean task.

3) Allow players to scrub Enchanted cards
-I know enchantments are so expensive that this will likely never show up. Yet allow players to remove enchantments from cards. I know in REAL life this is a limitation due to the stickers. Yet this is a game. (Heck in real life we have considered using sleeves so as to make the cards reusable.

4) Allow players to remake their characters without losing their retirement bonus
-Not every character is for every player, I in particular don't really like the Tinkerer. Yet the fact that you can get stuck as someone can sting. It is already a penalty to start a new character, don't make it more of one.

5) Impossible - Difficult Battlegoals
-Battlegoals are all over the place in terms of how possible they are. Some seem built for the first level (Kill an undamaged enemy in one strike, very few classes can achieve that at level 3-8). Yet sometimes certain battlegoals are outright unbeatable with some classes. Since this is a videogame you have a LOT more leeway.

6) New Game+?
-The ability to keep your prosperity, Your unlocked classes, items, and retirements?

[MrJane]

Yes to all of the above. Especially impossible anything.

[Greywolf]

Yep. Good points. I smell lots of mods for this game, hehe!