Geez, this game some insanely lazy balancing issues that should be taken care of

[16 TIMES THE MIN REQUIREMENTS!!!]

Well for once, it's obvious the classes are completely miles from each other. Doesn't make sense using the class that takes 30 cards just to kill one enemy when the brute can trample one shot like 6 enemies on the first turn and open the next door. Then we have the "I'm too lazy to carefully place enemy type combinations so i'll just drop over 9000 elite cultists than summon over 9000 skeletons just when entering the room". Geez. I'm playing insane but insane doesn't mean just being a brick wall. Doesn't help that i have to waste over 9000 turns picking up gold piles that are worth only 1 gold each. Of course you're ALWAYS gonna run out of cards if you don't pick up the busted classes. This also turns all healing and other effects completely useless because the game revolves around one shotting the 9000 enemies as fast as possible. You should really consider deleting the burn card system altogether for multiplayer cause i don't see that working over there EVER. Tabletop doesn't translate to videogames just like that, it really needs someone that knows what they are doing for balancing. At least consider giving players all gold when clearing the level and only leave chests as pickupables. Make enemy summons limited to 1. They also heal forever. How does a freaking SKELETON even has heal? Yeah go figure. Don't give enemies 30 straight positive multipliers and player parties 30 straight negatives because that's not RNG. They are so many issues lol.

[Valmar]

You know this game is considered #1 boardgame for a reason, right?
It's not an easy one though.

PS: you'll get better with practice. And game turns a bit easier once you got acces to 3 characters party. Like a lot easier (more combos, etc). Playing with 2 characters usually is a big handicap comparing to 3-4.



PS2: also, just as a comment/recommendation, classes like Tinkerer and Scoundrel are really really BAD in 2 characters teams. They get better the more players. I don't recommend using any of those 2 classes unless your party got 3-4 members. They are decent classes then! Irs like action videogames, sometimes support classes (or buffers or other kind of combo oriented classes, dont do well playing as solo or with a limited party, but they excel later).

[ved45]

I'm not sure wasting a bunch of cards to pick up gold piles is the best strategy.

[Darkshape]

I am sorry to hear you are having some issues. I will address some of what you said with some thoughts of my own.

Some of us can play insane just fine. No, it is not for the faint of heart. You really do have to know what the enemies do, what you can do, and plan accordingly.

I get what you are saying about some classes seeming stronger than the others, particularly with damage dealing capabilities. This sort of thing will always happen when there are differences between classes. Just know what any particular class is good at doing and use them to support the rest of the group with that strength.

Regarding cultists: prioritize them first so they do not raise too many skeletons. The skeletons themselves are pretty weak versus a combination of armor and retaliate or area attacks. Also, since both monsters are melee attackers you can use choke points and traps to prevent them from swarming you. I remember my first game with these guys on the tabletop version too... we almost didn't make it out of that one alive!

Regarding attack modifier deck "luck" issues: consider using abilities and enhancements that give advantage or strengthen. Eagle-eye goggles are amazing with your top nukers like Spellweaver's fire orbs and <Triforce>. Mindthief's brain leech may look like a paltry bottom attack 1, but with the mind's weakness it becomes a nice attack 3 finisher, and then strengthen sets you up for a major killing spree against fresh enemies for three more cards worth of attacks over two turns. Also now that perks are enabled be sure to opt for removing most or all of your negative modifier cards first so this won't happen to you any more.

Regarding this board game not translating well into a video game: I don't think this is the issue here. Perhaps the issue you are having is the early access state of this title. I have been very pleased so far with this iteration of the game capturing a lot of the tabletop feeling. Once you realize you can't just rush the menu option clicks because of risk of user error it feels perfect. Just waiting on multiplayer!

[screeg]

Originally posted by Valmar:

classes like Tinkerer and Scoundrel are really really BAD in 2 characters teams.

Eh, my very first game I used Scoundrel and Cragheart and did pretty well.

[Valmar]

Originally posted by screeg:

Originally posted by Valmar:

classes like Tinkerer and Scoundrel are really really BAD in 2 characters teams.

Eh, my very first game I used Scoundrel and Cragheart and did pretty well.

Sure you can, Im not saying its impossible. It's just some classes are better in parties and worse in 2-players.

In the case of the Tinkerer, it's because heals and buffs. Gloomhaven is a game in which doing damage generaly is better than healing, cause if you waste a turn healing, you are just stalling, which is not optimal. In a 4-players game, almost always you can heal one guy efficienly (3 targets plus your tinkerer), while doing damage with the others, etc.

In the case of the Scoundrel, its usually because Scoundrel is a character that excels with a melee character. It also gains great bonuses from some of her attacks when your partner is near an enemy. So, it usually pairs bad with spellweaver (ugly team), and cragheart (unless you use the cragheart as melee). Even then, it's a better class in 3-4 characters party because almost always you can do some combos and nasty damage, because the opportunities for a partner near an enemy is a lot more (there are more enemies also with more players).



And that's it, hope this helps. I'm not saying in any way its an imposible team, just saying is a big handicap compared to other combinations. At the end, if you play well and what some knowledge, you can do almost everything fine. But if you have some problems (which I think the OP had), it's not optimal to use the harder mode and one worse combination of characters, that's all.

[16 TIMES THE MIN REQUIREMENTS!!!]

I can see why 90% of casual players would avoid this game. Don't get me wrong, i really like the concept since i enjoy challenging stuff but there are just too many balancing issues to make it maneagable without becoming a tedious awful mess. And yeah the only viable classes on the highest diff are the high damagers and even then you still have the problem of getting lots of rooms full of elites and cultists that get constant positive modifiers and a lot of this stuff is left to one sided rng ( which isn't actually rng ) no matter how good you are. No way you are gonna kill all those enemies by getting constant negative modifiers and everything having heal and summon. The eagle eye tactic was the first thing i discovered on my first playthrough, only makes sense using them with the multi target strongest abilities like trample and ranged magic. Becomes even stronger once you get all the positive multiplier perk cards, that's why you could one shot a whole room with the Brute. No one is stronger. I think it's counter productive to use 20 cards to kill 1 enemy or just support in an extremely unbalanced game like this instead of using the op killer char that makes the game actually viable. The other annoying scenario is probably the one with lots of shamans that spam disarm and immobilize forever so you waste turns forever. The enemy number, a.i. and placement srsly needs a lot of revision. Otherwise the game will end up forcing you to play with the same strong chars to have a small chance. There are some rooms that become a cluttered mess because of having too many enemies with unlimited summons and high hp. I highly doubt anyone unlocked the 4 party slots in insane. I had to do it in normal because otherwise could've taken 3 years just to get to lvl 2. And you srsly had to use Brute, Cragheart combo for efficiency.

[atulaghni]

First of all, you shouldnt playing on insane if u cant handle the difficulty. Second, first few levels are the toughest ones cause u dont have anything to help you with enemies. Third, i dont see any problems with balance apart from ridiculously op cards/combinations that u get on lvl9, but all these things are present in the boardgame, so thats definitely not the issue with digital.

[Valmar]

Game is balanced to the extreme. At least the boardgame. If you are only interested in balanced scenarios, Once this got the campaign, you're fine. Boardgame scenarios (particularly the early ones) are tested to the extreme prior the boardgame release. Same with the 6 starting classes.


However, this is not a game for everyone. I would only buy a shotter myself under extreme circumstances. Some people should do the same when they buy a boardgame or boardgame adaptation. Some guys buy things without having an idea what they are buying or without making a search. It's not the game fault.


On a side note, I agree with the OP in some extent. I also thing the videogame, the roguelike minigame, got many balance issues as it is now. I recommend to wait for the campaign patch (at release), and only play the easiest difficult until then, if you really want. You made some valid points after all, Kaine. Just don't judge the boardgame based on the early access videogame, and the roguelike mode. Wait a bit more.

[zedd]

Originally posted by Kaine:

I can see why 90% of casual players would avoid this game. Don't get me wrong, i really like the concept since i enjoy challenging stuff but there are just too many balancing issues to make it maneagable without becoming a tedious awful mess. And yeah the only viable classes on the highest diff are the high damagers and even then you still have the problem of getting lots of rooms full of elites and cultists that get constant positive modifiers and a lot of this stuff is left to one sided rng ( which isn't actually rng ) no matter how good you are. No way you are gonna kill all those enemies by getting constant negative modifiers and everything having heal and summon. The eagle eye tactic was the first thing i discovered on my first playthrough, only makes sense using them with the multi target strongest abilities like trample and ranged magic. Becomes even stronger once you get all the positive multiplier perk cards, that's why you could one shot a whole room with the Brute. No one is stronger. I think it's counter productive to use 20 cards to kill 1 enemy or just support in an extremely unbalanced game like this instead of using the op killer char that makes the game actually viable. The other annoying scenario is probably the one with lots of shamans that spam disarm and immobilize forever so you waste turns forever. The enemy number, a.i. and placement srsly needs a lot of revision. Otherwise the game will end up forcing you to play with the same strong chars to have a small chance. There are some rooms that become a cluttered mess because of having too many enemies with unlimited summons and high hp. I highly doubt anyone unlocked the 4 party slots in insane. I had to do it in normal because otherwise could've taken 3 years just to get to lvl 2. And you srsly had to use Brute, Cragheart combo for efficiency.

Spellweaver is at least one tier above Brute and in 4p, its even better. Elementalist is also too strong. You must learn to be more efficient, this game takes a LOT of time to master.

[Flamingcloud]

I've played the real game start to finish in 2 player (with another person) and 3 player solo. Melee gains power in solo games as you can position and avoid damage way easier. In a 2 player game cloak of invis can basically make your entire party take no damage for a round.. possibly even two rounds with fast initiative followed by slow.. whereas in a 4 player game it is most likely just going to get all the attacks put on someone else.

Support classes are much better with more than 2 players.

In the real game Scoundrel is quite good.. Usually what you want to do is play the top move + attack combined with the bottom attack and the move the repositions the enemy to put them into a trap. Something like an attack 3 and attack 2 is much better than an attack 5 once attack deck with perks is considered. Obviously use cloak of invisibility when required and you DON'T play with any of the lost cards unless their other half can be used for the majority of the scenario. The scoundrel is very vanilla but less so than the Brute.

The Cragheart is in my opinion easily the best of the starting classes as he has insane flexibility and can do things no other class in the game can do. He has heals, durability, ranged, melee (the melee gets really strong at higher levels but is not good at level 1-3) and the ability to place or remove obstacles can be insane in a decent amount of scenarios (probably nothing like this exists at the moment with no campaign)


I don't really know where the computer game version is at right now as the last time I played I got annoyed perks weren't in because it really breaks the game after level 3 without perks. With perks a card like
Attack 2
Attack 2
Attack 2
is amazing and without it is weaker than an attack 5 or 6(factoring in shield enemies).. same with AoE attacks.. and ofcourse balance is also disrupted without the element generation from perks... I mean the same can be said about Enhancements but in all honesty for most classes items are a better usage of gold than enhancements (assuming items working the same as physical game)


Overall the balance is good.. there are 3-4 classes that are overall better than the others (especially Eclipse.. even post nerf from version 1) and there are a few classes that kinda suck in 2 player or in the wrong combination. The balance is definitely better in 3 player and even better when you aren't solo.

[touchshriek]

I understand your frustration. Not all the classes start at the same power level, but I do believe they balance out as you gain levels. As others mentioned the scoundrel can be difficult to play in a small party. Lets talk about why that is and how you might change your perception of this class. The scoundrel has amazing damage potential but it is often conditional on positioning. For this reason you will often want your other party members to go first. This means that you will want to prioritize faster cards on your other party members and have some slow cards in your hand. This mindset is often counter to the percieved strength of the class having so many fast cards. Fast cards are great but If you are building a scoundrel for high melee damage, you will need some slow cards to get the proper set up. That said, I find it much easier and preferable to play the scoundrel more like a support in the early levels. The scoundrel gets early access to poison and wound on some no loss cards. This adds a great deal of effective damage but its less spikey. I don't want to spoil anything but there is a card you can take at lvl9 that will completely change the way play the scoundrel towards this supportive style.
The scoundrel also has some of the best movement of the starting classes. This should allow you to get to those high priority targets like cultist. Consider picking up early winged boots to really make that movement work for you. Also always pick up the 3 levels of stamina potions as soon as you can. These not only help you play your most powerful cards multiple times in a row, but they also help you last longer with your tiny 9 card hand. Lastly, the scoundrel has some limited access to invisibility. To get the most out of invisibility use an early initiative on the turn you cast it, and use a high initiative the following turn. This can give you 2 whole turns of being untargetable. What even better is you can block choke points while invisible and enemies can neither target you or move through you. Use this to your advantage.

[DrEvilHomer]

The game is incredibly balanced. You have to balance literally everything. Want to move to get some gold, well you lost that movement towards another goal. Be it the next room, the next enemy or moving out of range of an archer. Skip the gold.. well now you have lost the opportunity to get some better gear. Everything is about learning what you need and what you don't. As the game is now, it is set to random rogue-lite mode. Meaning there is less of a point and a bit of a learning curve. You aren't intended to win the first game or the first ten even. Unlike the campaign where you build up a bit, this is just full mode Go!. I have been playing the board game for a year and this version for a month. I still struggle if I make a mistake. This game is not forgiving at all. If you want something easier, play on easy mode. To me if you come on here playing the hardest difficulty complaining that its too hard and unbalanced and casuals will hate it. Well duh, you dork, the game literally tells you that difficulty is INSANE. Pick an easier mode or don't play. If you won't put in the time to master the game before complaining we can't help you much.

[Cryptic]

I agree ^

[Flamingcloud]

While I agree the game is mostly balanced (especially outside of 2p).. Some classes are much easier to play and to choose the correct cards. (There is definitely no balance amongst cards.. some level 1 cards for example are utter junk even at level 1 and others can be still powerful practically mandatory even at level 9)

Would be nice to have some of the common house rules that people make as options. Such as..

- How disadvantage/advantage work with rolling mod perk cards
- Summons (I've seen people allowing them to be controlled, or less broken allowing them to move towards you when there are no enemies)
- Gold looting (I've seen everything from dividing remaining gold up, to scenarios not ending immediately after the last enemy dies)
- Invisibility (not allowing blocking of doors)

[Imaginary_number]

Yeah, I would say there's definitely some problems with balance. For starters, 10 cards in deck seems too narrow, you barely can fit few synergistic cards and almost no "trash" to burn, after one or two rests your archetype starts to fall apart really quickly.
At the start 10 cards seems ok, but expanding deck with levels would be great.
Gold piles at the floor usually don't worth spending your turns on them, you'll end up swimming in gold anyway just from looting occasional chests and completing journeys.
All in all, the game has somewhat oppressive feel, you are literally running against the clock, but never know how much time left before game is over.