Units rout A LOT

[Molester of all Eggs]

I came from shogun 2, rome2, wh2, napoleon, and medieval 2 in order to find a new experience in 3k. In order to familiarize myself with units, I play A LOT of custom battles. What I soon came to realize is that... my units seem to rout way too quickly. Even with units like ji infantry or sabre infantry, they seem to rout as soon as the enemy sneezes on em. Another thing is the siege battles. I love it, but again, the unit routing makes the siege battles so hard. I had my generals charge in first so it could ease the pain for my bulwark but my general ended up getting overwhelmed. Am I the only one with troops that rout faster than ashigaru?

[Saenimaux]

Morale is the actual health bar of the units. You can mouseover the morale bar in the unit pane in battle and check what factors come into play when they're morale is low.

Here's an 18 minute video that explains quite a bit of what I mentioned. Please don't take offense to the word "beginners guide" as you probably need to (refresh and review) the basics of what may be new to 3K compared to other Total War series titles you've played in the past.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_nUs4UaV8s

[Molester of all Eggs]

Originally posted by Adenial:

Morale is the actual health bar of the units. You can mouseover the morale bar in the unit pane in battle and check what factors come into play when they're morale is low.

Here's an 18 minute video that explains quite a bit of what I mentioned. Please don't take offense to the word "beginners guide" as you probably need to (refresh and review) the basics of what may be new to 3K compared to other Total War series titles you've played in the past.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_nUs4UaV8s

I watched this but it still doesn't really help me with morale loss. Usually you can counter these situations by simply sticking ur general near your troops.

[Roflberries]

I think the problem the OP is seeing is that the base morale of the units is ridiculously low compared to some of the debuffs that can be thrown around. Ji militia, for example, has a 25ish morale (26 if I remember correctly off the top of my head). Night fights give a debuff of -15, and at that point all it take is a general with scare (which is pretty much every vanguard) to come within close proximity of them and they will rout within seconds.

[Pink]

If you notice, Ji Infatry and Sabre Infantry don't really have that much more morale than their militia counterparts. Unless you go one tier up, morale is relatively low, but I never felt it caused that much problems unless my units were overwhelmed.

I usually have those units in pairs at worst to flank, and in a line if I can so that they feel their flanks secure. Like you said, keeping a general close will help.

Have you noticed if your units are taking fire (especially from fire arrows), or being flanked? Or maybe the AI is using general's abilities to cause fear?

[Molester of all Eggs]

Originally posted by Pink:

If you notice, Ji Infatry and Sabre Infantry don't really have that much more morale than their militia counterparts. Unless you go one tier up, morale is relatively low, but I never felt it caused that much problems unless my units were overwhelmed.

I usually have those units in pairs at worst to flank, and in a line if I can so that they feel their flanks secure. Like you said, keeping a general close will help.

Have you noticed if your units are taking fire (especially from fire arrows), or being flanked? Or maybe the AI is using general's abilities to cause fear?

Well, the problem occurs during siege battles. Whenever I assault something, it seems likes the units rout too quickly. When I try to send in my general to loosen up the enemy mass, their generals gang up mine with their troops. That makes the generals themselves flee.

[Molester of all Eggs]

Originally posted by Pink:

If you notice, Ji Infatry and Sabre Infantry don't really have that much more morale than their militia counterparts. Unless you go one tier up, morale is relatively low, but I never felt it caused that much problems unless my units were overwhelmed.

I usually have those units in pairs at worst to flank, and in a line if I can so that they feel their flanks secure. Like you said, keeping a general close will help.

Have you noticed if your units are taking fire (especially from fire arrows), or being flanked? Or maybe the AI is using general's abilities to cause fear?

I have been fighting yellow turban troops, do they have more morale?

[Molester of all Eggs]

Originally posted by Roflberries:

I think the problem the OP is seeing is that the base morale of the units is ridiculously low compared to some of the debuffs that can be thrown around. Ji militia, for example, has a 25ish morale (26 if I remember correctly off the top of my head). Night fights give a debuff of -15, and at that point all it take is a general with scare (which is pretty much every vanguard) to come within close proximity of them and they will rout within seconds.

Is there any troop that can hold the line and be the main bulwark of my assault? Morale like samurais have in shogun 2.

[Pink]

Originally posted by The Hatted Cactus:

Originally posted by Pink:

If you notice, Ji Infatry and Sabre Infantry don't really have that much more morale than their militia counterparts. Unless you go one tier up, morale is relatively low, but I never felt it caused that much problems unless my units were overwhelmed.

I usually have those units in pairs at worst to flank, and in a line if I can so that they feel their flanks secure. Like you said, keeping a general close will help.

Have you noticed if your units are taking fire (especially from fire arrows), or being flanked? Or maybe the AI is using general's abilities to cause fear?

Well, the problem occurs during siege battles. Whenever I assault something, it seems likes the units rout too quickly. When I try to send in my general to loosen up the enemy mass, their generals gang up mine with their troops. That makes the generals themselves flee.

Are you attacking or defending?

If you are attacking are you using siege equipment or the ladders?
Going up the ladders to take a wall will exhaust your units which will cause them to rout even faster. Best to never use the ladders unless you have no other way or if you are using units with very high stamina.

[Pink]

Originally posted by The Hatted Cactus:

Originally posted by Roflberries:

I think the problem the OP is seeing is that the base morale of the units is ridiculously low compared to some of the debuffs that can be thrown around. Ji militia, for example, has a 25ish morale (26 if I remember correctly off the top of my head). Night fights give a debuff of -15, and at that point all it take is a general with scare (which is pretty much every vanguard) to come within close proximity of them and they will rout within seconds.

Is there any troop that can hold the line and be the main bulwark of my assault? Morale like samurais have in shogun 2.

You need to look at the unit description, look for those with roles "Frontline" such as the Jian Sword Guards and Saber Infantry and use their formations (shield wall that boosts up their charge resistance and negates mounted charge). Others such as "All Rounder" will work too depending on the situation (guys without shields won't last long versus an army with lots of archers).

If you notice the Axe militia and infantry are tagged as "Assault", they are better suited to charge the enemy than to absorb their charges. You can use them to flank, let then be the hammer to you anvil, or even use them chase enemy archers even if its just to prevent them from firing at your main force, though this would be best using mounted units.

Spears with the large shields will work too as frontline with the added bonus of being anti cav if the enemy has them.

Guys without shields should stay to the flanks or in backup.

[Darklordnj]

Originally posted by The Hatted Cactus:

Well, the problem occurs during siege battles. Whenever I assault something, it seems likes the units rout too quickly. When I try to send in my general to loosen up the enemy mass, their generals gang up mine with their troops. That makes the generals themselves flee.

Your generals fleeing may be resulting in the morale penalties, throwing them into mass enemies tends to get them killed quicker as you can see, as they tend to fight their way into the center of them mass and get themselves surrounded. I find dismounting them prior helps prevent that as the charge they have is more limited. Regardless, there may possibly be a problem where you’re bunching your troops up a bit too much (which enables an easier chain rout and also exhausts troops not doing much) and may need to attack from more approaches

Originally posted by The Hatted Cactus:

I have been fighting yellow turban troops, do they have more morale?

Yes and no? They have lots of low tier-low morale troops, but they also have very powerful high tier troops with high morale and have some that are unbreakable (do not suffer morale from morale loss and will fight till the end. But it sounds like you’re at the start of your campaign, so most of their troops are not very good, and it’s their generals you should worry about most.

Originally posted by The Hatted Cactus:

Is there any troop that can hold the line and be the main bulwark of my assault? Morale like samurais have in shogun 2.

Much like Shogun 2’s ashigaru, you’ll find that militia units can work very well into the late game, however generally units that unlock for your general when they reach level 3 or 6 will perform better (some of these are locked behind the tech tree, but generally faction unique units available to all generals can also meet your needs). Alternatively, this is where you pay attention to commanders or other generals who have high yellow stats as they can boost the morale of units in an army if they are leading the army.

[Pink]

Originally posted by The Hatted Cactus:

Originally posted by Pink:

If you notice, Ji Infatry and Sabre Infantry don't really have that much more morale than their militia counterparts. Unless you go one tier up, morale is relatively low, but I never felt it caused that much problems unless my units were overwhelmed.

I usually have those units in pairs at worst to flank, and in a line if I can so that they feel their flanks secure. Like you said, keeping a general close will help.

Have you noticed if your units are taking fire (especially from fire arrows), or being flanked? Or maybe the AI is using general's abilities to cause fear?

I have been fighting yellow turban troops, do they have more morale?

Yap, these guys can be tricky. Most units have less morale than yours, but they are expendable, which means even if you destroy those guys their army won't suffer a morale loss penalty from loosing soldiers, while you do.

They also have a fair amount of high morale units, and worst, they have unbreakable units. All combined make them very dangerous.

My advice is to get acquainted with each unit. Take a look at their units and their abilities and act accordingly.

Also, be on the lookout for any unit (yours and theirs) with the "Encourage"ability, this gives a small morale boost around that unit. Spread yours around to cover most of your army, and try to take theirs down quickly to help rout their other units.

Pin down their unbreakable units and flank them, cycle charge them with your cavalry if you have it.

[Molester of all Eggs]

Originally posted by Pink:

Originally posted by The Hatted Cactus:

Is there any troop that can hold the line and be the main bulwark of my assault? Morale like samurais have in shogun 2.

You need to look at the unit description, look for those with roles "Frontline" such as the Jian Sword Guards and Saber Infantry and use their formations (shield wall that boosts up their charge resistance and negates mounted charge). Others such as "All Rounder" will work too depending on the situation (guys without shields won't last long versus an army with lots of archers).

If you notice the Axe militia and infantry are tagged as "Assault", they are better suited to charge the enemy than to absorb their charges. You can use them to flank, let then be the hammer to you anvil, or even use them chase enemy archers even if its just to prevent them from firing at your main force, though this would be best using mounted units.

Spears with the large shields will work too as frontline with the added bonus of being anti cav if the enemy has them.

Guys without shields should stay to the flanks or in backup.

Originally posted by Darklordnj:

Originally posted by The Hatted Cactus:

Well, the problem occurs during siege battles. Whenever I assault something, it seems likes the units rout too quickly. When I try to send in my general to loosen up the enemy mass, their generals gang up mine with their troops. That makes the generals themselves flee.

Your generals fleeing may be resulting in the morale penalties, throwing them into mass enemies tends to get them killed quicker as you can see, as they tend to fight their way into the center of them mass and get themselves surrounded. I find dismounting them prior helps prevent that as the charge they have is more limited. Regardless, there may possibly be a problem where you’re bunching your troops up a bit too much (which enables an easier chain rout and also exhausts troops not doing much) and may need to attack from more approaches

Originally posted by The Hatted Cactus:

I have been fighting yellow turban troops, do they have more morale?

Yes and no? They have lots of low tier-low morale troops, but they also have very powerful high tier troops with high morale and have some that are unbreakable (do not suffer morale from morale loss and will fight till the end. But it sounds like you’re at the start of your campaign, so most of their troops are not very good, and it’s their generals you should worry about most.

Originally posted by The Hatted Cactus:

Is there any troop that can hold the line and be the main bulwark of my assault? Morale like samurais have in shogun 2.

Much like Shogun 2’s ashigaru, you’ll find that militia units can work very well into the late game, however generally units that unlock for your general when they reach level 3 or 6 will perform better (some of these are locked behind the tech tree, but generally faction unique units available to all generals can also meet your needs). Alternatively, this is where you pay attention to commanders or other generals who have high yellow stats as they can boost the morale of units in an army if they are leading the army.

First of all thx a bunch for your answers. They did clear up a lot of questions I was gonna ask via multiple forums. Regarding your last bit about militia, wasn't there a recent patch nerfing the militia morale?

[Roflberries]

Originally posted by The Hatted Cactus:

Is there any troop that can hold the line and be the main bulwark of my assault? Morale like samurais have in shogun 2.

A lot of it is tied to your generals and not the units themselves. There are various skills they can pick up like disciplined and encourage that will help with morale issues. Moreover, just boosting their authority stat will increase their retinue's morale.

That said, assaulting towns/cities becomes dramatically easier when your archers and trebs have access to flaming arrows/shot (you should rush these skills on strategists asap), because you can burn their towers down before rushing in. And the bulk of your casualties are probably coming from towers which act more like a WW2 German MG-42 nest than actual arrow towers.

[Molester of all Eggs]

Originally posted by Pink:

Originally posted by The Hatted Cactus:

Is there any troop that can hold the line and be the main bulwark of my assault? Morale like samurais have in shogun 2.

You need to look at the unit description, look for those with roles "Frontline" such as the Jian Sword Guards and Saber Infantry and use their formations (shield wall that boosts up their charge resistance and negates mounted charge). Others such as "All Rounder" will work too depending on the situation (guys without shields won't last long versus an army with lots of archers).

If you notice the Axe militia and infantry are tagged as "Assault", they are better suited to charge the enemy than to absorb their charges. You can use them to flank, let then be the hammer to you anvil, or even use them chase enemy archers even if its just to prevent them from firing at your main force, though this would be best using mounted units.

Spears with the large shields will work too as frontline with the added bonus of being anti cav if the enemy has them.

Guys without shields should stay to the flanks or in backup.

In custom games I like to test out troops in real plausible scenarios. Meaning, I like to make up army compositions that I'll be most likely using. For this reason, I rarely use protectors of heaven cuz they look like a rare late game infantry even without trying them out. However troops like heavy Ji infantry caught my attention. Are heavy ji and shield guards late game infantry that is sorta rare or something that dominates an army comp during mid game. I don't want to come up with army comps that is rare and only appear when I am rich or smth.

[Molester of all Eggs]

Originally posted by Roflberries:

Originally posted by The Hatted Cactus:

Is there any troop that can hold the line and be the main bulwark of my assault? Morale like samurais have in shogun 2.

A lot of it is tied to your generals and not the units themselves. There are various skills they can pick up like disciplined and encourage that will help with morale issues. Moreover, just boosting their authority stat will increase their retinue's morale.

That said, assaulting towns/cities becomes dramatically easier when your archers and trebs have access to flaming arrows/shot (you should rush these skills on strategists asap), because you can burn their towers down before rushing in. And the bulk of your casualties are probably coming from towers which act more like a WW2 German MG-42 nest than actual arrow towers.

Dear lord, I caught onto the archer towers in this game almost immediately. Their fire rate makes my assault look like colorized d-day except the assaulting americans lost. It dumbfounds me how big of a toll archer towers take on my units.