Pike and Shot Warfare in TW 3K (with crossbows)

[Dragoon]

Historically, Pike and Shot (with pikes and crossbows) warfare was very common in the Chinese kingdoms throughout this 3K timeperiod. The armies of this era used varying lengths of pikes (eg. Qin pikes were up to 20s feet long) and up to 18 foot halberd-like polearms combined with embedded crossbowmen in mixed unit formations and rotating crossbow volley fire formations.

Pikes and Halberds Images:
https://imgur.com/a/ErjG5

https://imgur.com/a/3WO5u

Pike points & Pike shaft joinders/couplers:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=20607&d=1520458953

Crossbow rotating volley firing line gif: https://i.makeagif.com/media/1-11-2018/MJWaiH.gif

---

Sources:
"Crossbows remained one of the major weapons in Song times. In the eleventh century, Shen Gua argued that the crossbow is to the Chinese what the horse was to the Khitan -- the asset that gave them their advantage. In field battles against foreign cavalry, the Chinese infantry would have a row of pikemen with shields, rows of archers, and a row of crossbowmen. When the cavalry approached, the crossbowmen would shoot first above the crouching pikemen and bowmen. The pikemen and archers would shield the slower-firing crossbowmen, who, however, could inflict more damage."

https://depts.washington.edu/chinaciv/miltech/crossbow.htm

https://depts.washington.edu/chinaciv/index.htm

The historian here, Patricia Buckley Ebrey, mostly specializes in Song Dynasty history, but the tactics are applicable to earlier eras as well. One of the videos below or another article discussing mentioned similar tactics dating back to the Warring States era.

"The Qin also employed long spears (more akin to a pike) in formations similar to Swiss pikemen in order to ward off cavalry. The Han Empire would use similar tactics as its Qin predecessors. Halbers, polearms, and dagger axes were also common weapons during this time."

https://books.google.com/books?id=tko5DAAAQBAJ&pg=PT161&lpg=PT161&dq=qin+pike+formation&source=bl&ots=q75muog2Do&sig=q03ATN0Hq_jwiLR8-jzZ0ynSMQo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi-3p-YuuLXAhVOON8KHbR-ChoQ6AEIXDAL#v=snippet&q=%22similar%20to%20Swiss%20pikemen%22&f=false
"Finally, the Qin and Han Dynasties also developed crossbow shooting lines, with alternating rows of crossbowmen shooting and reloading in a manner similar to a musket firing line."

https://books.google.com/books?id=tko5DAAAQBAJ&pg=PT161&lpg=PT161&dq=qin+pike+formation&source=bl&ots=q75muog2Do&sig=q03ATN0Hq_jwiLR8-jzZ0ynSMQo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi-3p-YuuLXAhVOON8KHbR-ChoQ6AEIXDAL#v=onepage&q=%22rows%20of%20crossbowmen%22&f=false

The "Terra Cotta Warriors" documentary with descriptions of pike warfare:
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/chinas-terracotta-warriors-watch-the-full-episode/844/

https://books.google.com/books?
id=pYkvDAAAQBAJ&pg=PT29&lpg=PT29&dq=qin+pike+crossbow&source=bl&ots=Ys4KB-9eZk&sig=BHoo07i5ztYnA-6igYJqIjnxsVY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwihiYyqvOLXAhXRRt8KHY5mB6c4ChDoAQhHMAY#v=snippet&q=pike%20&f=false

"Around this time, the accuracy of crossbows was improved by the use of the world's first grid sights for aiming..." [Ancient Inventions -By Peter J. James, Nick Thorpe, I. J. Thorpe]

https://books.google.com/books?id=VmJLd3sSYecC&pg=PA219&lpg=PA219&dq=chinese+crossbow+grid+sight&source=bl&ots=4TF3ncnsqD&sig=FPzGt_LWMgCol4W5sr1CdLHJDHE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiShdTTj-TXAhVkct8KHcgbB1MQ6AEIPjAH#v=onepage&q=chinese%20crossbow%20grid%20sight&f=false
"(...a grid or crosswire sights) are set up on the frame....can mark his target, whether high or low, to the right or to the left." and "...other Han marksmen used cross-wire grid sights is well asured from other evidence..." [Science and Civilisation in China: Volume 3, Mathematics and the Sciences of the Heavens and the Earth... -By Joseph Needham]

https://books.google.com/books?id=jfQ9E0u4pLAC&pg=PA575&lpg=PA575&dq=chinese+crossbow+grid+sight&source=bl&ots=7rqJ38CyHi&sig=7SNFBeD8rRqLzbmkkaw32T2K0mE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiShdTTj-TXAhVkct8KHcgbB1MQ6AEINzAF#v=onepage&q=chinese%20crossbow%20grid%20sight&f=false

Ideas of Qin's Army formations from Terra Cotta Warriors: The red squares and black dots are arrows/triggers from bows and crossbows - there are some melee infantry weapons dispersed among these ranged troops. They are mostly in the front and sides but there is also a line of crossbowmen behind a line of spears/lances/halberds/pikes and behind chariots. Note: Apparently more than 90% of the weapons of the Terra Cotta soldiers were looted (as they found 8000+ soldiers but only ~500 weapons) so it may not be a complete picture.

http://scalar.usc.edu/works/terracotta-army/weaponry
https://www.travelchinaguide.com/attraction/shaanxi/xian/terra_cotta_army/strategy_1.htm

[Dragoon]

Originally posted by Burke:

That's not what "pike and shot" is. Pike and shot is specifically the application of firearms with infantry support using pikes.

The proper term then would be a proto-type of Pike and Shot warfare. The early version of Pike and Shot warfare in Europe were actually conducted with crossbows before being gradually replaced with firearms.

See thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3rsdsm/its_1580s_england_i_am_an_archerlongbowman_and_im/cwr9b7g/


"The decline of bowmen was rather quick. At the start of English intervention on behalf of Protestant Scotland, it was reported the ratio of footmen were roughly equal between pikes, bills, longbows, and calivers (a type of small arquebus). The bills were discarded and replaced with halberds immediately. The longbows were replaced by others, according what was available. By 1595, longbowmen were categorized among unarmed men."
Renaissance Armies: The English—Henry VIII to Elizabeth, An article by George Gush


"The Burgundian Compagnie d'ordonnance was a formidable combined arms force relying on close cooperation between heavily armored knights, dismounted men-at-arms, a variety of ranged troops including archers and crossbowmen, and an early form of field artillery. It was one of the most feared and most effective ground forces in 15th-century Europe, fresh from its victory over the French in the dynastic conflicts that followed the end of the Hundred Years' War. In response to the Burgundian threat the Swiss developed a tactic that could be used by mobile, lightly armored soldiers carrying only a long, steel-tipped pole for defence." [Note, we'll have to look up the citation]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pike_square

Originally posted by Burke:

What you're referring to has existed in all parts of the world for a very long time and even exists in pretty much every Total War game already.
Long story short, you wasted a lot of time on a pointless proposal.

Incorrect. You do not really see a combination of pikes and massed ranged firepower except in ancient China and in Pike & Shot era Europe.

Macedonian pikes were used to pin enemy in place while cavalry/flexible infantry flanked them to deliver the killing blow. They were not really used in conjunction with massed ranged firepower as a flexible stand-alone offensive and defensive formation. Same goes for medieval Byzantine pikemen, Scottish pikemen, etc. None of these pike formations have much in common with the Pike & Crossbow or Pike & Shot tactics.

[Fritz]

Gr8 b8 m8, I r8 it 8/8

[98.7]

Reported for being anti-semantic.

[Tank of Tiananmen Square]

It's true pike and shot was actually invented in China by Qi Jiguang. Actually pike and shot had already been used with crossbows instead of guns for thousands of years beffore chinese invented guns.

[Dragoon]

Originally posted by Breathe Easy:

Reported for being anti-semantic.

:O

Originally posted by Fritz:

Gr8 b8 m8, I r8 it 8/8

Any bonus points for citations?

[Fritz]

Too l8 to re-evalu8 a str8 8/8 you ingr8, but w8, to ab8 your h8 I contempl8 what you st8 to 8.8/8 as appropri8 compens8 for a gradu8. Now to termin8 this orn8 mand8, I abdic8 to celebr8 this gr8 figure 8.

*lol not all of it works but I wanted to one up my previous post

[Dragoon]

Originally posted by Fritz:

Too l8 to re-evalu8 a str8 8/8 you ingr8, but w8, to ab8 your h8 I contempl8 what you st8 to 8.8/8 as appropri8 compens8 for a gradu8. Now to termin8 this orn8 mand8, I abdic8 to celebr8 this gr8 figure 8.

*lol not all of it works but I wanted to one up my previous post

Daaaaamn son, those are some wicked beats you got there G.

[Dragoon]

Note: Ancient & medieval Chinese use of pike/halberd warfare is supposed to closer to Rennisance European pike/halberd warfare rather than ancient Macedonian use of pike warfare. It's faster-paced with soldiers running into position, used far more aggressively/offensively with massed firepower directed at a focused spot, and apparently had pike "charges" too. The ancient & medieval Chinese & Renaissance European pikes + embedded ranged troops were able to function more independently as a stand alone unit.

That should be more interesting than the "relatively" more defensive and slower paced Macedonian pikes that had to rely on other units for hammer and anvil tactics.

[N-9]

You did a great job writting an infromative thread, but sadly only history majors will actually get something out of this. Do you assume people will actually read this? And on top of all UNDERSTAND it? The first moron that replied to your thread is proof of this.

Originally posted by Burke:

What you're referring to has existed in all parts of the world for a very long time and even exists in pretty much every Total War game already.

[Dragoon]

Originally posted by ＬＥ ＢＡＲＯＮ ＦＯＵ:

You did a great job writting an infromative thread, but sadly only history majors will actually get something out of this. Do you assume people will actually read this? And on top of all UNDERSTAND it? The first moron that replied to your thread is proof of this.

Originally posted by Burke:

What you're referring to has existed in all parts of the world for a very long time and even exists in pretty much every Total War game already.

Lol, I'm not a history major either. I think most people understand pike and shot.

[U-Think]

you know what else we want? TANK, AIRCRAFT, SUBMARINE, CRUISER, MISSILE, NUKE, AAA, DRAGON, CHOCOLATESNOW FALL AND FREE BEER.

THX

also we want a 15 min break every 4 hours of battle. lucnh time betewn 12h and 13 during battle. No stabing below the chest, earing protection on the batttle at all time require, protective glass, hard hat and feet protection boot.

[U-Think]

Originally posted by Ke45TRo0:

you know what else we want? TANK, AIRCRAFT, SUBMARINE, CRUISER, MISSILE, NUKE, AAA, DRAGON, CHOCOLATESNOW FALL AND FREE BEER.

THX

also we want a 15 min break every 4 hours of battle. lucnh time betewn 12h and 13 during battle. No stabing below the chest, earing protection on the batttle at all time require, protective glass, hard hat and feet protection boot.

oh and an prtable bathroom in close proximity of the battle field.

oh yeah plz add a paid day off the battle filed when a someone you know die.. ahahahahah

[Timmy the Dragonborn]

Imjin war during Ming dynasty was probably pike and shot, but not really three kingdoms.

[Dragoon]

Originally posted by Dragonborntim:

Imjin war during Ming dynasty was probably pike and shot, but not really three kingdoms.

Yeh, Ming used actual Pike and Shot. Armies during the Warring States to Three Kingdoms (maybe Jin era armies too) used pseudo-Pike and Shot with crossbows - so Pike & Crossbow warfare.

[~Lazy_Eggs~]

you mean "YOU" will be disappointed :)