Yuan Shu (194): Imperial Seal or Huang Gai and Cheng Pu? Or both?

[Fried Noodles]

I've been messing around with cheesing the game a bit to create interesting starting scenarios for myself using different factions in the A World Betrayed campaign.

Previously I played as Lu Bu where I agreed to co-operate with Liu Biao (becoming his vassal) on Turn 1. This got me out of the war with Cao Cao who was unable to reclaim the city I stole from him. He turned his frustrations instead to Liu Chong (who I then began to butter up with diplomacy), destroying his faction entirely much before Yuan Shu would ever get the opportunity to assassinate him.
Liu Chong and Luo Jun both showed up to work for me and it was great. I love Liu Chong.
Working as Liu Biao's vassal was actually way more lucrative than I originally thought. I had to request permission to declare wars in a diplomatic deal with Liu Biao and in my experience, Liu Biao was quite the warmonger... By proxy.
There was not a single instance where I wanted to go to war with someone that Liu Biao would say 'No'.
In fact he was often so on board with the idea that he paid me tons of cash just for suggesting we go to war. It was quite nice.
Also made sure to snatch up the Imperial Seal from Sun Ce on Turn 1.

Next I played a game as Zheng Jiang where I used diplomacy shenanigans to confederate Yang Feng and Yan Baihu on Turn 1. This gets you Xu Huang and his axe as well as a fantastic heir/minister in Yang Feng (+10% Character Experience, -10% Retinue Upkeep Champion).
This gave me access to Yan Baihu (Mr. Sneaky Poison Volley) and his brother and my choice of starting locations: Pengcheng, Hedong, or Xihe. I ended up developing the south the most.
Normally you're not able to even SEE Yan Baihu on Turn 1, but after confederating Yang Feng, I was able to see tons more factions (Likely because he was previously a vassal under Li Jue and was enjoying his visibility.)
This also gave me the opportunity to take the Imperial Jade Seal from Sun Ce on Turn 1.

Then I played as Kong Rong where I decided to just opt out of his initial struggle by becoming Li Jue's vassal on Turn 1, which got me out of my wars with Yuan Shao and Yuan Tan. Because of Li Jue's initial might, I was able to dismantle my armies entirely and focus entirely on developing my settlements in the early game.
My vassalage ended up being much shorter than I expected (Did not want to incur a bunch of Untrustworthiness by declaring my independence too early), because as Li Jue keeps getting attacked by everyone around him and suffers civil war events, he becomes too weak to maintain his vassals. He ended up selling me my freedom for about a buck fifty after about 15 turns.
Naturally, becoming Li Jue's vassal gave me all of his diplomatic visibility, so I was able to snatch the Imperial Seal on Turn 1.


Did I remember to mention the Imperial Jade Seal?
I like the Imperial Jade Seal.

Though honestly, I feel like it should be a 'Unique' item, much like a unique character's weapon: Not tradeable at all and can only change hands through events or post-battle capture.
Then I wouldn't feel so fixated on it all the time...

---

So I am looking to start a Yuan Shu campaign on Legendary difficulty.
I've done a bit of monkeying around with diplomacy on Turn 1 and have found that I can fairly reliably and cheaply afford to Demand Legitimacy Support to three different factions: Sun Ce, Wu Jing, and Lu Kang.
Making peace with Lu Kang and getting him to support my legitimacy is good for me (I think?) and also serves to slowly undermine Sun Ce without destroying him, since I believe you don't get to take that city for yourself if you're playing as Yuan Shu? Whereas if you're playing as Sun Ce, there's an event where you relinquish it to Yuan Shu... Though I may have broken that event in my tests, not sure.

I eventually want to take the whole of Jianye and Poyang for myself without destroying his faction. And I want to completely ignore everyone in the central plains and north. I'm not going to destroy Liu Chong... I like Liu Chong.

Turn 2: You get the event where Sun Ce wants to trade the Imperial Seal for Han Dang, Cheng Pu, and Huang Gai.
I like the Imperial Seal... But I also like Cheng Pu and Huang Gai.
He can have Han Dang for free, Seal or no Seal.

You can take the deal and gain the Seal. But you lose two great unique characters.
You can refuse the deal and keep the characters but not get the Seal... But then you must suffer 20 Turns of -25 Satisfaction on Cheng Pu and Huang Gai (And possibly Han Dang too, if you somehow forgot to dismiss him from your court).

However if you refuse the deal, the Imperial Seal appears in Sun Ce's inventory on Turn 2 and can be taken from him in a trade. He does not have it in his inventory on Turn 1 if you're playing as Yuan Shu.

So you can keep the characters (with an annoying hit to their satisfaction for a long time) and get the Seal.

Alternatively, if you wish to not bother with the Seal at all... I found that if you simply dismiss Han Dang on Turn 1 before hitting End Turn, the event does not pop up at all. Sun Ce does not offer you the Seal for the three generals (because you only have two of them now and he's only interested in a complete set, I guess).
But he also does not have the Imperial Seal in his inventory in this situation.

I'm mostly interested in keeping his faction intact in order to eventually get Sun Quan and Sun Ren in my court.
However there are a ton of Wu officers that I absolutely love in this game that the AI Sun Ce is able to masterfully hoard.

In my most recent AWB game as Kong Rong, I managed to get a few spies in his faction on occasion, but was unable to get anyone interesting to leave his faction... Their satisfaction was almost always maxed out... It was super annoying.

Maybe it's better to simply annex Sun Ce on Turn 2 and deal with the early game Treachery? Then just push south away from everyone scary?

Then the likes of Taishi Ci, Zhou Yu, and Zhou Tai will not get stuck in his faction and might eventually make their way to me?

But would annexing Sun Ce prevent me from eventually getting my hands on Sun Ren?

[Geroiko]

Yes, I think after annexing you get to keep all characters, not only those who are of age, but the under-aged ones too who will join your ranks once they hit 18. But the only caveat is that I cannot remember when I tested that if it was actually annexation or confederation, but I don't think there is any difference for this matter specifically. Try and let us know about it.

[Fried Noodles]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2110343193

Everything worked out the way I wanted, so that's nice.

Kept Sun Jian's generals, married Sun Jian's wife, got the Imperial Seal, and all of Sun Jian's children calling Yuan Shu 'daddy'.

Sun Ce gone, so no competition for the delicious southern commanderies. Only a few minor interruptions from Cao Cao and Lu Bu.

A very enjoyable game so far. Yuan Shu is really great. Kinda weak on the diplomacy with so much -Opinion from my Legitimacy and having declared imperial intentions early on, but very powerful economically.