Spy + marriage = Diplomacy Bonus/Steal Generals/Heir Takeover

[Makeithappen]

So I know adopting male or female generals and then marrying them off to protract some benefit with another faction is expensive.

I've been thinking of other ways in the early game to earn more income, develop better relations and hopefully marry eligible legendary characters or rulers. Diplomatic Marriages give +40 positive factors. Which is a good way of getting on someone's good side.

I have not gotten a spy high enough in the court to be adopted into a family. Yet.
I thought I'd start by sending in a spy that is part of the family, adopted, or heir. Then using that spy for any and all abilities. Then once I'm ready to pull that spy out, I marry them back into my faction.
Is that a possible way to get them out?
If I marry an heir and kill the ruler can I get his lands?

There are other options I want to explore with with spying and/or marriage. And diplomatic takeovers.

[RCMidas]

An heir stays with their faction. If you marry them, they become one more general of yours, and no longer an heir to their original faction. Sorry, not possible to cheese that bit of things. However, if your spy is an heir, and the faction leader dies, you will have a spy suddenly ruling over another faction - and THEY can turn a lot of the lands over to you. Not all of them, as some loyalists will break away in a civil war, but it is less tiresome than assaulting or trading for each of the original settlements.

[Makeithappen]

Originally posted by RCMidas:

An heir stays with their faction. If you marry them, they become one more general of yours, and no longer an heir to their original faction. Sorry, not possible to cheese that bit of things. However, if your spy is an heir, and the faction leader dies, you will have a spy suddenly ruling over another faction - and THEY can turn a lot of the lands over to you. Not all of them, as some loyalists will break away in a civil war, but it is less tiresome than assaulting or trading for each of the original settlements.

Hmmm okay. hehehe. I was hoping how far the rabbit hole goes on this. Diplomacy and the Spy mechanic is highly intriguing to me and I love it. I guess you can't do everything.

So like you said, If I'm a spy first, then somehow get into the family and become the heir I can make my spy join my faction? Like I get a definite chance to use ultimatum or something?

[RCMidas]

It's a difficult thing to accomplish, but there are achievements specifically for causing this kind of havoc in an enemy faction (or even in a non-enemy faction you wish to absorb). Provided that your spy lasts long enough to work their way into a position of power, you can absolutely tear that faction apart.

It is not really viable in the early game. Ideally, you want to try and have your faction leader get as many children as possible and start marrying them to those of other faction leaders. The grandchildren will be considered related to both faction leaders, making sending them over as spies, with the eventual goal of becoming heirs, much easier.

I lucked out in one run when Wang Lang's daughter(?) ended up in my court. She is related to the Yuan family, so I sent her over to spy on them. After a few assassinations of the actual Yuan children, taking several years to carry out perfectly, and my execution of Yuan Shao himself a few years earlier, she ended up in control of the vast Yuan territory. Then I told her to hand it over to me. One civil war later...

[Makeithappen]

Originally posted by RCMidas:

It's a difficult thing to accomplish, but there are achievements specifically for causing this kind of havoc in an enemy faction (or even in a non-enemy faction you wish to absorb). Provided that your spy lasts long enough to work their way into a position of power, you can absolutely tear that faction apart.

It is not really viable in the early game. Ideally, you want to try and have your faction leader get as many children as possible and start marrying them to those of other faction leaders. The grandchildren will be considered related to both faction leaders, making sending them over as spies, with the eventual goal of becoming heirs, much easier.

I lucked out in one run when Wang Lang's daughter(?) ended up in my court. She is related to the Yuan family, so I sent her over to spy on them. After a few assassinations of the actual Yuan children, taking several years to carry out perfectly, and my execution of Yuan Shao himself a few years earlier, she ended up in control of the vast Yuan territory. Then I told her to hand it over to me. One civil war later...

Bwahahaha... its nice when a plan finally comes together. especially one taking many turns to accomplish. Yes spies are long term investment. I was never able to get into the family tree of an opposing faction by going spy first. I suppose it would be easier to marry them into a bloodline and then wreck havoc.

[Makeithappen]

So just a breakdown of what you did.
Marry off your children. Hopefully someone in another factions family tree like an Heir.
Then use them as a spy.
Will this have a higher chance of ranking up as a part of the family tree as a spy or is it automatic?
Can you tell who is part of the Famlly Tree other than by name?

[RCMidas]

People related to the ruling family have a little indicator on their unit card in the bottom right corner. Normally you can only see your own relatives, but checking the relationships of characters is a good way of determining who may be related to who. Family members tend to like each other more.

If they are married to someone in the family, they are automatically considered part of that family. So taking the Yuan example - if you marry someone to Yuan Shao, Yuan Shu, Yuan Tan, Yuan Xi, etc (you may need to kill their existing wives first) then that person is considered related to ALL of them.

This means that if they stay in the Yuan Shao faction, or move over to the Yuan Shu faction, they can be made the heir to the faction. Other potential heirs may need to be killed off first, especially the preexisting actual children of the Yuan patriarchs, but sooner or later the chances are you'll have your spy as an heir.

Note that you must still have a character in your faction to use them as a spy. You will not be able to marry someone INTO another faction and then make them a spy. Be very careful which of the two marriage options you select in the diplomacy menu:

>>OFFER MARRIAGE means that your chosen character will leave your faction.

>>RECEIVE MARRIAGE means that the other faction's character will join your faction.

Note that you can still marry people off to others who are not part of the ruling family. Keep an eye out for that, because it's a real bugger of a waste of time if that's your goal. On the other hand, if you've got the cash to marry off a bunch of your generals to each other, you can produce a whole bunch of children to send off to other factions just to make them like you a bit more.

[Makeithappen]

Originally posted by RCMidas:

People related to the ruling family have a little indicator on their unit card in the bottom right corner. Normally you can only see your own relatives, but checking the relationships of characters is a good way of determining who may be related to who. Family members tend to like each other more.

If they are married to someone in the family, they are automatically considered part of that family. So taking the Yuan example - if you marry someone to Yuan Shao, Yuan Shu, Yuan Tan, Yuan Xi, etc (you may need to kill their existing wives first) then that person is considered related to ALL of them.

This means that if they stay in the Yuan Shao faction, or move over to the Yuan Shu faction, they can be made the heir to the faction. Other potential heirs may need to be killed off first, especially the preexisting actual children of the Yuan patriarchs, but sooner or later the chances are you'll have your spy as an heir.

Note that you must still have a character in your faction to use them as a spy. You will not be able to marry someone INTO another faction and then make them a spy. Be very careful which of the two marriage options you select in the diplomacy menu:

>>OFFER MARRIAGE means that your chosen character will leave your faction.

>>RECEIVE MARRIAGE means that the other faction's character will join your faction.

Note that you can still marry people off to others who are not part of the ruling family. Keep an eye out for that, because it's a real bugger of a waste of time if that's your goal. On the other hand, if you've got the cash to marry off a bunch of your generals to each other, you can produce a whole bunch of children to send off to other factions just to make them like you a bit more.

right, yeah I know the difference. ahaha, a bit of trial and error there awhile back.

[Makeithappen]

So an odd thing happened. I had a spy. she had the spy icon. I decided to adopt her so i could marry her off to the heir of the Tao Qian.

Now the option for her to be a spy is gone. I don't understand. I waited a turn and still the same issue.
Do I have to spy first then marry?

[RCMidas]

Huh. I'll be honest with you here, I've no idea WHY anybody is or is not willing to spy for you. If they want to, yay, if not, oh well, generally speaking. Maybe she's too happy about being adopted to want to go away for the time being?

[Makeithappen]

Originally posted by RCMidas:

Huh. I'll be honest with you here, I've no idea WHY anybody is or is not willing to spy for you. If they want to, yay, if not, oh well, generally speaking. Maybe she's too happy about being adopted to want to go away for the time being?

perhaps. I told her it was for taking over a rival faction. She even had an X next to her new husbands name. They hated getting married. Maybe she just wants to be a mom now.

I had Cao Ang willing to spy when he became of age. I thought maybe it was a family thing. Perhaps its an adoption thing? To kinda nerf any kind of fast way to get your spy into a higher rank early.