Anyone feel like Champions and Strategists are essential to an army?

[VicRummy]

I have been thinking that, champions and strategists are so important to an army while the other three are not. (for campaign battles, not including admin)

The fact that only Champions can recruit Ji Infantries and spear guards makes them so irreplaceable. No matter heavy variety or not, they are so good at holding to the line. Sword guards can't do it that good, at least not so flexible cuz you need to worry about cavs. They offer the best line holders, too damn important. Not even mention the dueling advantage.

And strategists can make archers and crossbows so much better. They are already OP in this game, with a legendary strategist (once you push cunning to 100 they become legendary if they were not) and 6 unit of archers or crossbows, they are destroyers. And only they can recruit trebuchets.

So here is what I think about vanguards, commanders and sentinels. They are not so important.

Vanguard can recruit shock cavs. But shock cavs are only good against ranged in this game I think. And they have become slower and squashier. Unless we are talking about heavy tiger&leo or jade dragons (which both can be recruited by any character type), they melt to both green units and blue units, they may even not win against grey units.

Commanders can recruit melee cav, which is meh... If you can micro shock cav just a little bit, melee cav are not that essential. Or we can say, either shock cav or melee cav, you only need one of the kind. So, replaceable.

Sentinels can recruit axe, swords and what... I'm not saying these are bad, let's just say that they can be replaced by green infantries, but not the other way around. So, not so important.

If the game is designed to let any character type recruit any unit once unlocked (tech or level), but they are enhanced by different character type, it brings more flexibility. But for now, personally I stick to Champ, Strategist, and another whatever.

So what do you guys think?

[G4M5T3R]

Don't underestimate the Sentinels ability to lock down enemy Generals or hold chokes. They are tanky af.

[Ultrabot]

Originally posted by G4M5T3R:

Don't underestimate the Sentinels ability to lock down enemy Generals or hold chokes. They are tanky af.

^

[Aelies von Saladir]

Strategists, yes.
Champions, no.

[momodave]

This might be crazy sounding, but strategists WERE vital to any army.

[VicRummy]

Originally posted by G4M5T3R:

Don't underestimate the Sentinels ability to lock down enemy Generals or hold chokes. They are tanky af.

Yes, I do notice. I'm just saying green and blue are so important that they are more essential than others for an army generally. Of course I open to suggestions. Cuz right now I only feel like using green inf for holding, whatever cav for killing back lines, lots of blue for fire power.

[VicRummy]

Originally posted by Aelies von Saladir:

Strategists, yes.
Champions, no.

But don't you think Ji and spear inf are never worse than swords and axes in holding the line, and they are also much more flexible against cavs? Especially there are not a lot of heavy armored units so that axe inf can stand out?

[G4M5T3R]

Originally posted by VicRummy:

I'm just saying green and blue are so important that they are more essential than others for an army generally. Of course I open to suggestions.

Min/Max you're probably right. Hidden Axemen on the otherhand are both melee AND ranged therefor flexible. I think it boils down to personal playstyle tbh.

[Five-Pacer]

I really wish Cao Cao was a strategist instead of a commander. His nickname is literally "Strategist Mastermind". It's really bad having his vanguard legendary general in his army since he brings horses aswell.

I really do think commander is the worst one, their cav is just inferior compared to vanguard, especially when considering Cao Cao's elite vanguard cavalry and all the other late tier cavalry. It's a shame most faction leaders are commanders.

[Dregora]

Idk, I like my cav with Zhang Fei never getting tired. It's cool to do a vanguard deployment, let everyone engage and take them from the rear.

Hard.

[NovemberTerra]

Strategists is a must have in one of the three slots.
For me, i try to put in an Sentinel or Champion as a solid base, a strategist for ranged and then a commander.. vanguard is so meh and i try to avoid them.
Since i had the situation that my shock cav was pretty much halved in numbers till they reached the enemy archers i'm more like.. give me melee cav! They may not deal that much damage, but at least they don't die as soon as someone is looking at them.

[Hollywoodb1]

Originally posted by VicRummy:

Vanguard can recruit shock cavs. But shock cavs are only good against ranged in this game I think. And they have become slower and squashier. Unless we are talking about heavy tiger&leo or jade dragons (which both can be recruited by any character type), they melt to both green units and blue units, they may even not win against grey units.

You haven't been using vanguard cavalry correctly at all if you think it's only good against ranged units. If ranged units are your primary target with spear, lance and halberd cavalry, of COURSE you've been disappointed. That's like saying you're upset with the performance of your new toilet brush when you're trying to use it to clean your television. It just doesn't make sense.

Charge them into ready & waiting spears? You're going to have a bad time. Charge them towards the enemy front line when they're shooting arrows at you? Yeah, you're an idiot asking watch your men die in a hail of sharpened shafts. Charge them into the flank of the spears that just engaged your infantry? Watch the little guys run. Counter enemy Commanders' melee & ranged cavalry, engage close-ranged enemy infantry (swords, axes) and immediately withdraw them to soften the enemy front line for your infantry to finish them off. Chase down fleeing infantry to prevent them returning to the fray (frankly I'd use melee cavalry for this instead, but shock cavs do the job just as well). They are incredibly useful.

I think you're looking at this game all wrong. The only "necessary" type is strategist (even that is a stretch: you don't have to have trebuchets or special formations to win every battle, but I won't argue it doesn't make some of them easier), but none of the others are disposable. Yes, the cavalry units of the Commanders tend to be very specific in their deployment, but Cao-Cao's 20 point morale boost is huge, and shielded cavalry is useful for blatantly obvious reasons.

Sentinels are the shield-bearing, close-combat specialized infantry. When the core of your foe's front line consists of swords, axes and shields and your approaching them with your bows & arrows and spears, you're going to lose. Yes, your arrows will whittle them down some, but when the melee begins your mid-ranged melee units don't stand a chance. Yes, this is, sadly, anti-reality (there's no reason swords should beat spears in an open battlefield. If I've got a long stick and you've got a short stick, I'm going to hit you first 99% of the time), but that's how it is.

Anyway, my point is the game is not perfectly balanced, but if you think that there are only two useful general types and the others are disposable, you're sorely mistaken and frankly playing them wrong. Which this is fine, don't get me wrong. If you prefer the other types because they're easier or they fit your playstyle better, you're certainly right in playing how you wanna play, but don't assume some units are inferior because you handle them poorly.

Edited for clarity.

[Five-Pacer]

Regarding faction leaders such as Cao Cao and Liu Bei, who are both commanders and have a legendary Champion and Vanguard hero each, do you guys use them all together in the same army? I.e. Cao Cao, Xiahou Dun and Xiahou Yuan for example?

I'm asking this because the game makes me feel like I should be using them all together especially in the start, but I think Commander and Vanguard is a bad combo, and not having a Strategist also makes the army very lacking IMO.

Also the fact that Cao Cao starts with one of the best Vanguard cavalry (Heavy Tiger & Leopard Cavalry) while he is a Commander really irks me.

[The Former]

I don't have a single Champion in my army and I haven't lost a single battle yet. My Sentinels and Vanguards do great work on their own.

[Flip]

I really like champions for their ability to win duels vs enemy heros. Playing the Tiger Jian guy (sorry I cannot remember the names) and he starts with a champion companion. I gave the guy a refined great axe and he has destroyed every general he has met, including one battle where he killed 3 (2 in duels and 1 in regular).

While I like the spearmen, I generally have Axemen front line at the moment, good balance of offence & defence and so far I manage to gun down most cav before they are too much of a threat.

Love strategists, mainly for the treb, that + explosive rounds racks up easy 300 kills per fight.

[VicRummy]

Originally posted by hollywoodb1:

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You haven't been using vanguard cavalry correctly at all if you think it's only good against ranged units. If ranged units are your primary target with spear, lance and halberd cavalry, of COURSE you've been disappointed. That's like saying you're upset with the performance of your new toilet brush when you're trying to use it to clean your television. It just doesn't make sense.

Charge them into ready & waiting spears? You're going to have a bad time. Charge them towards the enemy front line when they're shooting arrows at you? Yeah, you're an idiot asking watch your men die in a hail of sharpened shafts. Charge them into the flank of the spears that just engaged your infantry? Watch the little guys run. Counter enemy Commanders' melee & ranged cavalry, engage close-ranged enemy infantry (swords, axes) and immediately withdraw them to soften the enemy front line for your infantry to finish them off. Chase down fleeing infantry to prevent them returning to the fray (frankly I'd use melee cavalry for this instead, but shock cavs do the job just as well). They are incredibly useful.

I never, charge them into spear lines. I always cycle them from the back and micro them to charge once and once again. And I'm comparing character types with one another, how come the use of cav became the focus point here?

My point is, shock cav or melee cav, with micro and due care, they are not irreplaceable. I know the game balanced, but still I feel like some of these types are more of a "better to have one in your army". And yes, you talked about spear vs swords. But ain't them all meat shield after all. As long as they can't out performance the opponent front line ENOUGH in a short time frame, they will always be the anvil and the cavs are the hammer.