Laser Pistols - Renders rifles obsolete?

[Retroburn]

^Subject.

I found this on the Wikia:

"Early in a campaign, the Laser Pistol are much more effective at defeating enemy units than any purchasable weapon except explosives. Heavy Cannons do slightly more damage per shot, but you can fire many more times per combat round with a laser pistol (3 shots max, vs 12).
With enough persistence, the Laser Pistol will defeat any foe in time."

So once I research and produce them the default rifles should be discarded if I've enough funds (and time)?

[DOOMed]

I wouldn't. I usually only use the laser pistol as a back up for a rocket launcher soldier. They may be rapid firing with their fairly low TU cost but they are woefully inaccurate. I don't even upgrade from the standard pistol I use for my scouts until I get plasma pistol, all due to the fact that the standard pistol is much more accurate and still has a low TU cost.

They're not even really worth building to sell, except for building a batch while you research las rifle to keep your engineers busy.

[Colonel Sanders Lite]

Yep. Laser rifles are even better. Getting to laser rifles should really be your top research priority. As soon as you finish researching laser pistols, you should start manufacturing them and replace rifles immediately. This process will probably be interupted by finishing research on laser rifles. Again, start manufacturing laser rifles immediately and replace any old rifles that are still left with laser rifles. Usually, this means I end up actually fielding a few laser pistols on exactly one mission.

[Retroburn]

So the takeaway from your replies is this: upgrade to lasrifle immediately. Only use laserpistols for backup weapons for those wielding heavy weapons.

However, there's still this: Which is better, the default rifles or laser pistols?

[DOOMed]

Originally posted by Retroburn:

So the takeaway from your replies is this: upgrade to lasrifle immediately. Only use laserpistols for backup weapons for those wielding heavy weapons.

However, there's still this: Which is better, the default rifles or laser pistols?

That depends on a few factors. One is far more accurate but costs far more TU's per shot. They both do different types of damage and differing amount, which differing aliens have differing resistances to.

Here's an example for you to consider:

You are on your first terror site mission. You are up against Sectoids and Cyberdiscs.

Against the sectoids the rifle is good enough for a one hit kill most of the time. It is versatile enough to use at close, medium and long range. Obviously keeping the enemy at a long distance is good as it lessens the chance of a grenade being thrown your way. If all goes well, you'll see the Sectoid at the soldiers max view distance and have a good chance of hitting and killing the Sectoid with an aimed shot.

Now consider this with the las pistol. Yes it can do aimed shots but it's accuracy is considerably reduced when compared to the rifle. You will get more shots off but more are going to miss. A single hit still has a reasonable chance of killing a Sectoid, but it will be harder to get that single hit, though you will have more chances at it.

Now consider the Cyberdisc. It is resistant to HE rounds and to AP rounds to a degree. Las is more effective against them than either of the previous two damage types. The trouble is you are definitely going to want to be as far away from the cyberdisc when you kill it because it will explode with comparable blast radius to a blaster bomb. Again look at from some angles. You can hit it with a large rocket which may kill it, or it may not. If it doesn't it will most likely be damaged, opening up options for hitting it with rifles, grenades, whatever. The heavy weapons are considerably more accurate than the las pistol at long range overall. Or you could swap out all your rifles, cannons etc for las pistols. You stand to gain perhaps better damage per hit, but you may not get as many hits. Remember it's not just the weapons accuracy but your soldiers accuracy too.

As I said above, it's your choice. Las pistols are very effective back up weapons for heavies due the fact they don't need ammo. They can kept on the belt, pulled out and fired at very low TU cost. Personally though, I'd rather take a mix of available weaponry. Rifles, Heavy Cannon, Auto Cannon, las pistol and regular pistol. When carried as a backup weapon, it is there when you need it, no matter the situation. Hell give your rifle guys one as backup too if you want, they're light enough. There will be no aim penalty on firing the pistol with a weapon in the other hand as they are single handed weapons (vice versa is different though for the main weapon). Have your scouts take a regular pistol and carry a las pistol in case they need it. That way you can have a laser weapon as when you need one, without compromising on your tactical options from other weapons in your arsenal.

Sorry that's a little long winded but hope it helps.

[Colonel Sanders Lite]

Originally posted by Ezekial:

Now consider this with the las pistol. Yes it can do aimed shots but it's accuracy is considerably reduced when compared to the rifle. You will get more shots off but more are going to miss. A single hit still has a reasonable chance of killing a Sectoid, but it will be harder to get that single hit, though you will have more chances at it.

This is the crux of it and here's the really important factor that you're not mentioning. Probably because it's not really apparent at a glance. When you do the actual math on those hit percentages, the laser pistol is just more likely to connect. Due to the lower TU cost, you will shoot more and, while each individual shot is less likely to hit, the laser pistol is more likely to connect with at least one shot. It also does better damage when it does connect. Combine this with the lack of a penalty for carrying something in your other hand, lack of ammo, etc and the laser pistol is just flatly better.

There is one exception that you will probably never see in an actual game though. A veteran with a very high accuracy skill can eclipse the accuracy of the laser pistol using aimed shots. Of course, by the time you have such a veteran, you shouldn't be using standard rifles anymore anyways.

Originally posted by Retroburn:

Only use laserpistols for backup weapons for those wielding heavy weapons.

Personally, I don't bother with backup pistols. I freely admit that this is probably a habit formed due to the old vanilla 80 item limit and old habits die hard. Obviously, strategies, loadouts, and tactics vary from player to player. Speaking of the 80 item limit, you really should grab open xcom if you're not already using it.

[Retroburn]

Thank you guys for the VERY helpful inputs! Very eye-opening.

The alien army will not be pleased:

[DOOMed]

Originally posted by Colonel Sanders Lite:

Originally posted by Ezekial:

Now consider this with the las pistol. Yes it can do aimed shots but it's accuracy is considerably reduced when compared to the rifle. You will get more shots off but more are going to miss. A single hit still has a reasonable chance of killing a Sectoid, but it will be harder to get that single hit, though you will have more chances at it.

This is the crux of it and here's the really important factor that you're not mentioning. Probably because it's not really apparent at a glance. When you do the actual math on those hit percentages, the laser pistol is just more likely to connect. Due to the lower TU cost, you will shoot more and, while each individual shot is less likely to hit, the laser pistol is more likely to connect with at least one shot. It also does better damage when it does connect. Combine this with the lack of a penalty for carrying something in your other hand, lack of ammo, etc and the laser pistol is just flatly better.

There is one exception that you will probably never see in an actual game though. A veteran with a very high accuracy skill can eclipse the accuracy of the laser pistol using aimed shots. Of course, by the time you have such a veteran, you shouldn't be using standard rifles anymore anyways.

Originally posted by Retroburn:

Only use laserpistols for backup weapons for those wielding heavy weapons.

Personally, I don't bother with backup pistols. I freely admit that this is probably a habit formed due to the old vanilla 80 item limit and old habits die hard. Obviously, strategies, loadouts, and tactics vary from player to player. Speaking of the 80 item limit, you really should grab open xcom if you're not already using it.

You're right I never sat down and averaged out the overall hit rate. I still prefer an aimed shot with a rifle by a troop with good accuracy. I don't think there is any other weapon as accurate in the game. An aimed shot with rifle has a base of 110% accuracy iirc. Nothing else even comes close. Give that to a captain with 70= accuracy and you are looking at an 80% hit chance, more if you crouch.

[Colonel Sanders Lite]

Personally, I've been a fan of and using the xcom util alternate heavy laser for years. Turns it into something more akin to a laser variant of the Barrett M82. Much more useful weapon that I tend to keep on hand all the way into the end game. Not super great vs superhuman mutons though.

In vanilla, the most accurate aimed shot is actually the rocket launcher with 115% accuracy. Admittedly, that can be viewed as sort of niche though. The heavy plasma actually ties the rifle on aimed shot accuracy though and the plasma rifle and laser rifle isn't far behind with 100% aimed accuracy. Using your example of an accuracy 70 soldier, rifle vs laser rifle is only a 7% difference in hit rate for aimed shots. Also consider that the rifle and laser rifle do 30 and 60 damage respectively. It's a judgement call, but personally, I don't think that the small difference in accuracy is worth sacrificing half of your damage potential.

[DOOMed]

Originally posted by Colonel Sanders Lite:

Personally, I've been a fan of and using the xcom util alternate heavy laser for years. Turns it into something more akin to a laser variant of the Barrett M82. Much more useful weapon that I tend to keep on hand all the way into the end game. Not super great vs superhuman mutons though.

In vanilla, the most accurate aimed shot is actually the rocket launcher with 115% accuracy. Admittedly, that can be viewed as sort of niche though. The heavy plasma actually ties the rifle on aimed shot accuracy though and the plasma rifle and laser rifle isn't far behind with 100% aimed accuracy. Using your example of an accuracy 70 soldier, rifle vs laser rifle is only a 7% difference in hit rate for aimed shots. Also consider that the rifle and laser rifle do 30 and 60 damage respectively. It's a judgement call, but personally, I don't think that the small difference in accuracy is worth sacrificing half of your damage potential.

I was still referring the comparison to the las pistol, rather than the las rifle or plas.

I still favour taking the rifle at this stage due to it's high accuracy. If one of your men stumble over an alien and don't kill it, you stand a good chance of killing it using aimed shot from a troop who has LOS but might not be in sight range.

[Retroburn]

You can still fire with either weapon if dual wielding with a rifle and a lpistol right? How about a heavy weapon?

[DOOMed]

Originally posted by Retroburn:

You can still fire with either weapon if dual wielding with a rifle and a lpistol right? How about a heavy weapon?

You can fire with either weapon, even a heavy weapon. Anything larger than a pistol while holding anything in the other hand will give you an aim penalty, even if it's a grenade in the other hand.

[Retroburn]

Originally posted by Ezekial:

Originally posted by Retroburn:

You can still fire with either weapon if dual wielding with a rifle and a lpistol right? How about a heavy weapon?

You can fire with either weapon, even a heavy weapon. Anything larger than a pistol while holding anything in the other hand will give you an aim penalty, even if it's a grenade in the other hand.

I went to the wikia after this and learned what you just said.

I tried a game with an LPistol-wielding scouts and in one terror mission he singlehandedly killed three aliens with one of those being those hulking orange things. He died in the last parts of that foray though. Thanks for the tips! They're very useful!

[DOOMed]

Originally posted by Colonel Sanders Lite:

Originally posted by Ezekial:

Now consider this with the las pistol. Yes it can do aimed shots but it's accuracy is considerably reduced when compared to the rifle. You will get more shots off but more are going to miss. A single hit still has a reasonable chance of killing a Sectoid, but it will be harder to get that single hit, though you will have more chances at it.

This is the crux of it and here's the really important factor that you're not mentioning. Probably because it's not really apparent at a glance. When you do the actual math on those hit percentages, the laser pistol is just more likely to connect. Due to the lower TU cost, you will shoot more and, while each individual shot is less likely to hit, the laser pistol is more likely to connect with at least one shot. It also does better damage when it does connect. Combine this with the lack of a penalty for carrying something in your other hand, lack of ammo, etc and the laser pistol is just flatly better.

There is one exception that you will probably never see in an actual game though. A veteran with a very high accuracy skill can eclipse the accuracy of the laser pistol using aimed shots. Of course, by the time you have such a veteran, you shouldn't be using standard rifles anymore anyways.

Originally posted by Retroburn:

Only use laserpistols for backup weapons for those wielding heavy weapons.

Personally, I don't bother with backup pistols. I freely admit that this is probably a habit formed due to the old vanilla 80 item limit and old habits die hard. Obviously, strategies, loadouts, and tactics vary from player to player. Speaking of the 80 item limit, you really should grab open xcom if you're not already using it.

really important factor that you're not mentioning.

Also, as I stated in my post, it really does depend on your soldiers accuracy. A soldier with accuracy 60 will hit more than one with 40. Not knowing the OP's soldiers stats though....for all I know he may have a crop of raw recruits. If so, he's going to hit more with the rifle.

It's another reason why I use the las pistol as a backup weapon for heavies and sometimes scouts. Often these troops have been on a mission or two by the time you get las pistol and will have a stat increase or two to compensate (to a degree) for the reduced accuracy of the las pistol when compared to the rifle.

As I'm sure you aware the maths of combat in X-Com is all swings and roundabouts. You can theorise as much as you like but in game, there are other factors to consider as well. What sort of cover the target is in, range, troop accuracy, weapon base accuracy, injuries, etc. You can only really discuss so many variables at the theory level, in his game though, it will depend on his troops, the random battlefield, his tactics etc.

[Colonel Sanders Lite]

Originally posted by Ezekial:

Not knowing the OP's soldiers stats though....for all I know he may have a crop of raw recruits. If so, he's going to hit more with the rifle.

It's actually sorta the other way around. Since weapon accuracy is multiplied by the accuracy skill, the difference in accuracy becomes greater with skill. As an example, I'll compare the per shot accuracy of the rifle (35%) and the laser pistol (28%) shooting in auto mode.

skill       rifle       l. pis.      difference
20          7           5.6          1.4
40          14          11.2         2.8
60          21          16.8         4.2
80          28          22.4         5.6
100         35          28           7

As a rule, your best soldiers can get the best out of your most accurate equipment while the guys who can't hit the broadside of a barn won't be able to do so, no matter what you give them. Yes, strictly speaking, a skill 50ish recruit has better odds of hitting on a per shot basis with the rifle, but the difference is pretty small.

To my mind, the only area where the rifle makes sense as a choice over the laser pistol is as a potential early game rear area sharpshooter weapon where you expect your sharpshooters to be trying to shoot through your skirmish line. This works heavily in the rifles favor since it's one of the few times that your really want to stick to aimed shots. That being said, I don't generally feel that the recruits you're dealing with at that stage of the game are even really capable of being sharpshooters. By the time I feel I have soldiers that can actually fill that role, I have laser rifles anyways and the rifle vs laser pistol comparison is just a moot point at that stage.

[DOOMed]

Originally posted by Colonel Sanders Lite:

Originally posted by Ezekial:

Not knowing the OP's soldiers stats though....for all I know he may have a crop of raw recruits. If so, he's going to hit more with the rifle.

It's actually sorta the other way around. Since weapon accuracy is multiplied by the accuracy skill, the difference in accuracy becomes greater with skill. As an example, I'll compare the per shot accuracy of the rifle (35%) and the laser pistol (28%) shooting in auto mode.

skill       rifle       l. pis.      difference
20          7           5.6          1.4
40          14          11.2         2.8
60          21          16.8         4.2
80          28          22.4         5.6
100         35          28           7

As a rule, your best soldiers can get the best out of your most accurate equipment while the guys who can't hit the broadside of a barn won't be able to do so, no matter what you give them. Yes, strictly speaking, a skill 50ish recruit has better odds of hitting on a per shot basis with the rifle, but the difference is pretty small.

To my mind, the only area where the rifle makes sense as a choice over the laser pistol is as a potential early game rear area sharpshooter weapon where you expect your sharpshooters to be trying to shoot through your skirmish line. This works heavily in the rifles favor since it's one of the few times that your really want to stick to aimed shots. That being said, I don't generally feel that the recruits you're dealing with at that stage of the game are even really capable of being sharpshooters. By the time I feel I have soldiers that can actually fill that role, I have laser rifles anyways and the rifle vs laser pistol comparison is just a moot point at that stage.

rifle makes sense as a choice over the laser pistol is as a potential early game rear area sharpshooter weapon

Yeah that is the situation I had in mind. It's not that uncommon to have a soldier capable of making use of the rifle in this way by the first terror site at the end of the first month. Usually at least one of your starting troops will have a reasonably high accuracy (55 - 65). Provided you can keep them alive and get them a couple of kills you can get them up to perhaps 70 by the rank of Sergeant or perhaps Captain depending on how many men you have (I always buy at least an extra 10 soldiers and 10 scientists with the starting cash). The rifle takes that up to near 80 and crouching can take it over that.

You probably won't have any las rifle by the end of the first month unless you go straight for las research and even then you may not have enough ready by month end, even if you bought more engineers. You will most definitely have some las pistols though, and most likely one or two men who are already on their way to being very accurate.