Crab Champions

Crab Champions

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Jack Blaze May 11, 2024 @ 8:30pm
Firestarter vs Oil Can
No clue if this has been asked before and I couldn't find a discuss about it

Which of the two is better? Gut's telling me Oil Can, but I'm not sure which actually gets you more damage
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Showing 1-13 of 13 comments
Limdood May 11, 2024 @ 11:03pm 
it depends on where most of your damage is coming from. Which will also change as the run, and your build, progress.

If you're using something like the flamethrower which does abysmal damage, and most of your damage is coming from the fire DoT itself, then increased fire strength is the way to go.

If you're applying fire, but your base damage is doing a lot of the work, whether weapon damage or melee/grenades, then increased damage to enemies on fire is better.

I tend to lean towards increased fire strength. Reason being that if i'm already relying on my pure damage more than the fire, then the fire really isn't doing much for me anyways, and I might consider cutting it to afford (or free slots for in true nightmare) other perks which will apply more universally. If i'm going for fire, then i'm going to lean into fire by increasing fire stacks.

Note that fire, of all the elements, really struggles with scaling. it is tough to apply it to elites, REALLY tough to apply it to king skull/giant ant, impossible to apply it to nests, and it doesn't get affected by crit rate/damage and I don't THINK it gets affected by global damage (might be wrong on that last account)
Jack Blaze May 12, 2024 @ 7:22am 
If I'm being fully honest, the current run I'm doing is the first one the really majorly popped and popped hard to my newbie eyes and I got so lost in the sheer carnage I'm causing that I stopped thinking as hard what's causing which parts of it exactly

Maybe I could outline all the mods I have?

What I can say is that the current build I'm doing is a mish mash mess of Arcane, Poison, Fire, DoT bullets, Crits and some other extra flavour that I probably don't actually need that much

PS: Why is the max crystal number something random like 4bil?! It's evidently using the long datatype to store that stuff instead of int, so why stop at 4bil?!
Last edited by Jack Blaze; May 12, 2024 @ 8:06am
Casurin May 12, 2024 @ 8:38am 
Originally posted by Jack Blaze:
If I'm being fully honest, the current run I'm doing is the first one the really majorly popped and popped hard to my newbie eyes and I got so lost in the sheer carnage I'm causing that I stopped thinking as hard what's causing which parts of it exactly

Maybe I could outline all the mods I have?

What I can say is that the current build I'm doing is a mish mash mess of Arcane, Poison, Fire, DoT bullets, Crits and some other extra flavour that I probably don't actually need that much

PS: Why is the max crystal number something random like 4bil?! It's evidently using the long datatype to store that stuff instead of int, so why stop at 4bil?!
Not random at all - 32 bit unsinged integer.
Jack Blaze May 12, 2024 @ 9:10am 
Originally posted by Casurin:
Not random at all - 32 bit unsinged integer.

Oh, the uint, right. Forgot that one existed...

Suppose they're using that instead of long so as to be able to go above integer but not cause heavy load with how big long values get?
Rideps May 12, 2024 @ 2:29pm 
Honestly, if you go for one you generally want the other as well, for most elements. Generally not ice.

Strength up is, if you're not aware, more stacks per proc. More stacks, for all elements, means more uptime. More uptime is better for "damage increased to effected enemies."

If you're leaning into the element enough to want them (or if it's just filler until something better shows up), then they go well together.
Jack Blaze May 13, 2024 @ 2:12am 
Originally posted by Rideps:
Honestly, if you go for one you generally want the other as well, for most elements. Generally not ice.

Strength up is, if you're not aware, more stacks per proc. More stacks, for all elements, means more uptime. More uptime is better for "damage increased to effected enemies."

If you're leaning into the element enough to want them (or if it's just filler until something better shows up), then they go well together.

Fair enough

Well, in my case, at the point in time I was asking the question I had a pretty easy time stacking on a lot of the Arcane, Poison and Fire stacks I've been going for with the setup I had. Suppose in this case Oil Can and their equivalents is what I should've gone with instead of the Strength up

And speaking of ice, would I be correct in assuming it's the worst one out of all of them? Because it felt pretty underwhelming when I tried it in one of my other runs compared to either Poison, Arcane or Fire
Limdood May 13, 2024 @ 5:16am 
Originally posted by Jack Blaze:
And speaking of ice, would I be correct in assuming it's the worst one out of all of them? Because it felt pretty underwhelming when I tried it in one of my other runs compared to either Poison, Arcane or Fire

They're not comparable.

fire and arcane apply damage over time. Arcane less consistently and with less supporting perks, but it comes out stronger because it interacts with crit and global damage.

Poison increases damage taken, like a second global damage modifier. I woiuld make a case that it is by FAR the most valuable element due to it's effect.

Lightning takes care of crowds quite well, and helps non-Area weapons deal with crowds, but does little to nothing against solitary targets.

And Ice is pure CC. shuts down enemies completely for the duration of the freeze. Amazingly useful on some annoying non-elite special enemies like like crabs, pumpkins, or ants that you might otherwise have a hard time pinning down without getting shot back.

Fire, arcane, poison, and lightning all help you offense. Ice helps your defense. They're not really comparable.
Casurin May 13, 2024 @ 7:52am 
I would prefer Ice over fire - when the firerate and chance is high you can lock down all but the big 32/64 bosses.

Sadly fire/ice cancel each other making both of them really bad in general:
you have to watch out which items to take (fire/ice aura/grenades/shots) and then you also need to worry about enchantments or you randomly get them on your good shot-abilities.....

And now i just go for random-debuff:
it sadly also applies ice and fire, but also other good debuffs that can be really helpfull against bosses.
Rideps May 13, 2024 @ 4:20pm 
Ice doesn't really benefit from the side perks, because it caps at 50. Maybe if you have a really low rate still or just Aura or something strength would work on it, but otherwise only the other brand matters.
Dopey Shepard May 16, 2024 @ 4:54am 
Wait why not just build both then?

Keep in mind that fire will not benefit from your global damage boost, it will always do the damage depending on its stack count

Best thing you need to get is Fire Ring relic, cuz Ice will nullify your fire so dont ever build ice in your fire build, that's all
Jack Blaze May 16, 2024 @ 12:42pm 
Originally posted by Dopey Shepard:
Wait why not just build both then?

Keep in mind that fire will not benefit from your global damage boost, it will always do the damage depending on its stack count

Best thing you need to get is Fire Ring relic, cuz Ice will nullify your fire so dont ever build ice in your fire build, that's all

Cuz the build wasn't using just Fire but Poison, Arcane and a bunch of other stuff. Hence, I had to decide which one of the two to go forward with

Yeah, I did have the fire ring at the time, too. Ended up being an unpleasant surprise later that the ring cap was 6 when I thought it to be twice that
Dopey Shepard May 16, 2024 @ 2:18pm 
Originally posted by Jack Blaze:
Originally posted by Dopey Shepard:
Wait why not just build both then?

Keep in mind that fire will not benefit from your global damage boost, it will always do the damage depending on its stack count

Best thing you need to get is Fire Ring relic, cuz Ice will nullify your fire so dont ever build ice in your fire build, that's all

Cuz the build wasn't using just Fire but Poison, Arcane and a bunch of other stuff. Hence, I had to decide which one of the two to go forward with

Yeah, I did have the fire ring at the time, too. Ended up being an unpleasant surprise later that the ring cap was 6 when I thought it to be twice that

Relics are supposed to be really strong, hence why only 6 of them. Anything more and this thing is more broken than it already is with the right build
Lord Foog the 2st May 17, 2024 @ 2:43pm 
grab both?
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Date Posted: May 11, 2024 @ 8:30pm
Posts: 13