Bleed/cut yourself

[ShOAB-0,5]

So I just learned you have to cut yourself by holding B (throw) to open a certain gate blocking an item. I don't remember this mechanic to be introduced at any point nor could I find any hints that it even existed. What's more, this obviously this does not work just on any gate, but particularly this one.

Maybe I just haven't been paying attention, but it seems utterly random to me. Is there any reasoning behind this or was this designed with the frustration of players in mind? I always feel a bit fooled when I trust games to at least provide the chance for people to figure the puzzles out by themselves. Same thing goes for an item where you would have to jump while slashing downwards at a lantern. This is used at literally no other point in the game. WTF?

tl;dr:
What have I been missing? Or is this simply unfair puzzle design?

[JukePlz]

IIRC the mechanic is introduced at the begining of the game, (perhaps in the first map with a cherub when you must use a ranged attack?)

The sacrifice move main purpose is not to open that door, it's to transform HP into mana to cast spells. If you pay attention to the hints in that map like the splattered blood decal it's not hard to realize what you must do. Every puzzle in the game has some fort of hint to decipher it on one form or another.

Same thing goes for the pogo jump move, it's not just to access that bead, it's an useful move that will give you a much better time at certain bosses if you learn to use it properly. Ten Piedad moves can be easily evaded just by comboing him and then pogo slashing until his attack lands. The last boss eye can also be pogoed to evade lightning pillars while dishing damage, etc.

[Kildia Zesified [Sachiko]]

Blood Penitence (The self cutting ability) is mentioned somewhere in the beginning. Not exactly sure where, though.

It's also mentioned in the game tips section you can access in the options menu, during the game.

Something that is not mentioned anywhere, not even in the game tips, is that, if you connect a charged attack on an enemy right as they get ready to strike you, you can stun them as if you had performed a Retribution, leaving them open for an execution move.

[Shizofrend98HR†]

Originally posted by Kildia Zesified Sachiko:

Something that is not mentioned anywhere, not even in the game tips, is that, if you connect a charged attack on an enemy right as they get ready to strike you, you can stun them as if you had performed a Retribution, leaving them open for an execution move.

rly? damn. Thanks for the tip! Do you maybe know what move can open up hidden openings in the floors that isn't the high up jump down slam thing or the hold attack mid-air and down to smahs the sword into the ground. I am addicted to checking every pixel for secrets and doing the sword slam thingy on all the floors can be time consuming and exhausting.
p.s. does the hold down and attack whilst standing still move also reveal areas or can I just use dash to do that instead? Thx!

[TROGDOR]

Originally posted by JukePlz:

IIRC the mechanic is introduced at the begining of the game, (perhaps in the first map with a cherub when you must use a ranged attack?)

The sacrifice move main purpose is not to open that door, it's to transform HP into mana to cast spells. If you pay attention to the hints in that map like the splattered blood decal it's not hard to realize what you must do. Every puzzle in the game has some fort of hint to decipher it on one form or another.

Same thing goes for the pogo jump move, it's not just to access that bead, it's an useful move that will give you a much better time at certain bosses if you learn to use it properly. Ten Piedad moves can be easily evaded just by comboing him and then pogo slashing until his attack lands. The last boss eye can also be pogoed to evade lightning pillars while dishing damage, etc.

Air impulse is also very useful for any airborne or tall enemies.

Just wait until they find the puzzle involving taking the lift.

@OP - I'd just say you need to pay attention to the environment and lore for contextual clues. A bit like older adventure games. If you really can't figure it out, consult the wiki, but if you're anything like me you'll usually be smacking yourself with the obviousness of the solution.

[Mr. World]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2399749605

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2399749709

How can you figure out anything if you don't know your abilities? When you say you 'trust' the game, you mean you went blind and hoped that the game holds your hand and pop up every single technique while you rush forward? If you're cluless, everything is random.

[ShOAB-0,5]

Originally posted by Valtiel:

If you're cluless, everything is random.

And if you already know the solution, everything is obvious, duh.

Originally posted by TROGDOR:

if you're anything like me you'll usually be smacking yourself with the obviousness of the solution.

I appreciate a good puzzle just like the next one and I sure enough spend enough time trying every possible combination of commands and items in older adventure games. This one in particular just gave me an odd feeling because every gate in this game worked in one of two ways: you either worked a switch or beat a boss.

I guess I overlooked these 'advanced techniques' pages in the menu and there actually is some kind of reasoning behind this. So thanks for yours answers, I now have a better understanding of what kind of thinking needs to be applied in this game.

[Shizofrend98HR†]

Originally posted by Lost Soul in a fish bowl:

Originally posted by Kildia Zesified Sachiko:

Something that is not mentioned anywhere, not even in the game tips, is that, if you connect a charged attack on an enemy right as they get ready to strike you, you can stun them as if you had performed a Retribution, leaving them open for an execution move.

rly? damn. Thanks for the tip! Do you maybe know what move can open up hidden openings in the floors that isn't the high up jump down slam thing or the hold attack mid-air and down to smahs the sword into the ground. I am addicted to checking every pixel for secrets and doing the sword slam thingy on all the floors can be time consuming and exhausting.
p.s. does the hold down and attack whilst standing still move also reveal areas or can I just use dash to do that instead? Thx!

Same goes for dash/slide/dodge attack. It's so easy to do too since enemies start attacking you when you slide into them often so it's a almost always instant execution state trigger.

[TROGDOR]

Originally posted by ShOAB-0,5:

Originally posted by Valtiel:

If you're cluless, everything is random.

And if you already know the solution, everything is obvious, duh.

Originally posted by TROGDOR:

if you're anything like me you'll usually be smacking yourself with the obviousness of the solution.

I appreciate a good puzzle just like the next one and I sure enough spend enough time trying every possible combination of commands and items in older adventure games. This one in particular just gave me an odd feeling because every gate in this game worked in one of two ways: you either worked a switch or beat a boss.

I guess I overlooked these 'advanced techniques' pages in the menu and there actually is some kind of reasoning behind this. So thanks for yours answers, I now have a better understanding of what kind of thinking needs to be applied in this game.

Some gates require navigation & platforming, some require progression via beating a boss - some require interpreting environmental mechanics or clues - and some involve interpreting lore. This is how most challenges in the game work - building familiarity with subtleties of the game's systems, combat & movement mechanics - so if you're looking to do a completionist run, by the time you meet the final boss, not only will your character be heavily specced to face them, but your literacy of how the combat & items work will make them almost trivial to defeat.

I think it's a good way to encourage the player to seek an understanding of all the different mechanics the game has to offer rather than relying on a select few crutches & hoping it'll win them through. Even if someone gravitates toward a certain playstyle, they'll at the very least have been put through their paces with the other things the game can do.

Eg. Shroud of Dreamt Sins is used in a few ways in the game. You can use it to listen to, and sometimes even interact with the spirits of the dead. Dead bodies will usually provide some kind of environmental flavour text - but in the case of puzzle rooms, these will sometimes provide clues. This encourages you to engage with the lore which is necessary to complete the more obscure quests & gain the more powerful items.

[stuff]

Yeah, it is kinda unfair since we've never encountered a similar puzzle before. And to add insult to injury this Blood Penitence mechanic is very niche in my opinion. I don't think I can count more than 10 times I used it throughout multiple walkthroughs.

[Mr. World]

I would recommend the sensible act of checking out the options menu when you starting to whatever game BEFORE opening whining threads, childishly question devs' intent if they were to frustare players. The first takes less time than the latter.

[Mango Tree]

Originally posted by ShOAB-0,5:

So I just learned you have to cut yourself by holding B (throw) to open a certain gate blocking an item. I don't remember this mechanic to be introduced at any point nor could I find any hints that it even existed. What's more, this obviously this does not work just on any gate, but particularly this one.

Maybe I just haven't been paying attention, but it seems utterly random to me. Is there any reasoning behind this or was this designed with the frustration of players in mind? I always feel a bit fooled when I trust games to at least provide the chance for people to figure the puzzles out by themselves. Same thing goes for an item where you would have to jump while slashing downwards at a lantern. This is used at literally no other point in the game. WTF?

tl;dr:
What have I been missing? Or is this simply unfair puzzle design?

I remember the first time i played the game, i saw the gate and the red marks on the floor and in that instant it came to me, "I have to cut myself to open this one" and there was it. not even hard to figure out when you take everything into account.
It helped out that i actually wanted to pay attention to the game :'D

[ShOAB-0,5]

Originally posted by Valtiel:

I would recommend the sensible act of checking out the options menu when you starting to whatever game BEFORE opening whining threads, childishly question devs' intent if they were to frustare players. The first takes less time than the latter.

Then again you would have noone to feel superiour over, so maybe just enjoy it.

[Javivi]

Originally posted by Valtiel:

How can you figure out anything if you don't know your abilities? When you say you 'trust' the game, you mean you went blind and hoped that the game holds your hand and pop up every single technique while you rush forward? If you're cluless, everything is random.

[phone], the blood penitence puzzle it's a bit obvious, there are blood drops on the fllor... It's like the wall of holly prohibitions puzzle, the corpse gives you the hint, but if you don't use the cloth... xD

[Moosey Fate]

where was the tip to tell you there was an advanced tips menu? LUL i've beaten the game, and gone back through for a very small number of missed things. while i figured out air jump only because of the time trial puzzles, it was in the tutorial, but i didn't quite catch it, couldn't replicate it, couldn't re-read trigger the tip. so was just left wondering the whole time until those puzzles. never even assume to look for advanced tips. i'm quite certain there was nothing about "Blood Penitence" (hold ranged attack). i did find out about it by pressing everything, but was left in a state of "well this doesn't seem very effective" all game.

I don't mind what it is, but wish it was explained. i dislike handnoldy games, but cannot agree that these were well implimented in the game even remotely. the game is fantastic. but nothing's perfect.