Questions about the vault

[calvinspark]

1. What is the purpose of the vault? If it didn't crash and spill the Nebula, what would be the actual ideal state had it succeeded? How much of the children's story is true? Its purpose doesn't seem to be preserving a civilization since it happily vaulted with just two sentient beings.

2. Who were the original inhabitants of the vault? Robots? Humans? Both?

The big book says The people of the Nebula grew from seeds. Does that mean the vault came with robots that grew humans from a lab? Why did they need humans anyway?

Or did the vault come with humans who controlled robots? This seems more plausible since the statue of "the God of all Nebula" had feet which only humans had - humans control the vault therefore humans are the God of all Nebula. Then how did the humans become slaves during the Steel Empire?

[ptor]

1. The purpose of the vault is to find a new place to live when "the unstoppable entropy" has rendered the old one untenable. As far as we can tell, the children's story is true - at least in the "place was dying and people were in denial until it was evident they needed to leave to survive so they did". Details such as the rivers stripping the land may have been adaptations as generations of retelling contaminated it. It vaulted with two people because the overseer, or ultimate authority, said so. Presumably a real overseer would have made sure the population had been brought onboard, as dialogue suggests, buuut... ;)

2. According to scriptures, pictures, and timelines... both? "The robots made the nebula" (was it a planet that got blown up by the impact?), but there might have been either pre-existing humans, and/or vaulters
Growing from seeds might be a genetic reference (from the genes of the overseer?), but also a cultural reference (from "savagery" to "society"). The pictograms somewhat suggest the latter, but what were the human sacrifices robots requested?

3. The vault came with controlling humans - the overseer (same as "primary user"?) "knows" what is best for everyone, and their word is law to robots. Whether there were other humans settled before is unknown. Please also note the date for the God of all Nebula statue, which is not in the earliest days

[calvinspark]

Very interesting point on #2 for the "society" metaphor.

I think the pictogram is describing the vault as the god. Vault was asking for sacrifices in a way of taking away the Nebula. Later, humans overthrew by sealing up the vault and drying its well.


So this is what I have so far, reading from the spread sheet[docs.google.com]

1. Vault crashes with humans who controlled robots

2. Humans create the idea of six gods based on the six features of the vault AI

3. Humans already had hopper technology, and uses it on Watery Moon to expand the Nebula

4. Humans also name themselves God of all Nebula, because they controlled the Nebula. This is different from the Vault God who is the vault's AI.

5. Humans build the library, sail around, and establish cities

6. Humans build the Serpent's Eye and sail around more effectively (why not use long distance hoppers?)

7. Humans use the Sculptor's Moon to build statues

8. Robots overtake the humans (how???) and use humans to mine metals from ScM for a couple hundred years. Could it be that the metal was essential for recharging the vault, therefore when the metal was first found all the robots' ethical cores flipped modes to prioritize the metal mining over human suffering? If the metal is important enough, it could make sense that the vault god kept an eye (literally) on the mine. The metal also had to be transported to the vault, which would explain the vault god's long distance hopper source. Was there a hopper receiver in the vault?

9. Enkei overthrows a portion of the robot regime and buries the robots in Withering Palace. Mining robots are still driving humans.

10. Enkei develops the half-hopper technology and become immortal. Some nobles are immortalized via robots and others recorded via rebeske foils.

11. Enkei destroys the Ancient language and knowledge. Holy Empire prospers while Enkei is just chilling for a couple hundred years (in the WP pit? Why was Enkei in the pit if she's alive in Six's body?)

12. Miners are hoppered to Withering Palace and recovers Enkei. Enkei leads the miners and the robots to destroy the Holy Empire.

13. The miners backstab Enkei and bury her and all robots in Iox. Dark Age begins followed by the modern Iox.

14. The vault is ready by now and Aliya yeets

[calvinspark]

Still unsure about the original question, though I'm not sure if anyone knows the answer.

If the vault didn't crash and spill the Nebula, what would be the actual ideal state had it succeeded?

[worstcase11]

The vault was a colony/refuge ship originally.
So the ideal state would have been reaching the star system it was planned to arrive at and doing a controlled landing on a habitable planet there.
Then the next step would have been a terraforming process - likely that was what the ship brought that much water for (unless it needed the hydrogen as fuel for travelling when not jumping through a black hole).
After the AI's and robots under the watch of the Overseer and the crew were done with that part, the colonists/refugees would have been wakened -first in small numbers- to establish agriculture, cities and infrastructure alongside the robots.
The new colony would have still been a high technological culture, which could have continued building robots and spaceships etc.

What went 'wrong' on the journey was likely simply that the ship crashed into some sort of asteroid belt - I doubt the ship impacting would have been enough to destroy even a small planetoid.
Most of the human crew was likely killed, so were most of the colonists/refugees which were likely kept in some sort of stasis pods and the ship lost all the water resources.

What went 'right' was that the AIs managed to start up the terraforming of the asteroids, turning them into the moons that could be travelled via the rivers.
The ground god was likely the terraforming AI - remember the god was upside down on the sculptor's moon? The machine was likely there to set up the artificial gravity, as in space there is no up and down.
Very likely the robots and the Overseer had to grow some clones to replace dead crewmembers and colonists/refugees to populate the moons, while the ship was in repair mode.
The Overseer may even have been the only survivor.

Likely the Overseer did not forsee that the moons of the newly formed nebula would develope that much in the time they were stranded or he underestimated the extensive duration of the neccessary repairs of the ship.
By the time the repairs were progresssed enough for anouther attempt at vaulting to a new star system, the heaven's Vault was long forgotten by the inhabitants of the nebula and the ship AI could not make any decision by itself.

[calvinspark]

Originally posted by worstcase11:

The ground god was likely the terraforming AI - remember the god was upside down on the sculptor's moon? The machine was likely there to set up the artificial gravity, as in space there is no up and down.

Very interesting!

[ptor]

Originally posted by worstcase11:

The ground god was likely the terraforming AI - remember the god was upside down on the sculptor's moon? The machine was likely there to set up the artificial gravity, as in space there is no up and down.

The buried god identified in my playthough as "I AM VAULT GOD" "which one?" "HEAVEN'S VAULT". I presume in your game it identified differently?

[calvinspark]

My take is that there is really only one "god" - the AI.

The six gods were created by humans. Initially the water, earth, and sky gods were created to "personify" the features of the vault. Then fire, death, market grew out of human necessity.

The God of All Nebula is just humans themselves since they created the Nebula using the water hopper.

Therefore, it could be interpreted that the ground god is just a characteristic of the AI doing its terraforming work.

[eisen]

We know exactly what went wrong, and it comes from an exchange between Aliya and the Central AI:

AI: Do you wish to vault?
Aliya: To vault? What does that mean?
AI: A viable, proximate system has been located. A lensing singularity is available. Refraction error is minimal. Do you wish to vault?
Aliya: A what error is minimal?
AI: Intersectional error, as experienced on the previous vault. Entropic loss during recovery has been significant. Further loss will render vaulting impossible!

In other words, on the previous vault the ship accidentally vaulted into space already occupied by the planet they were meant to settle on, causing the planet's destruction and rendering the ship nonfunctional. (The ship bits scattered around the HV moon are probably part of the original craft, which must have been huge.) This also fits with some versions of lines from The Book:

The ship crashed and burned//The explosion was strong and hot and broke the heavens and the rock below/The heart of the ship could not be contained

The AI on the ship has been working ever since to recover the ship's core (aka its "heart") and to find a new world to set out for, habitable, close enough to be reached in a vault, and with an available lensing singularity which allows the vault over such long distances (which the ruined house inscription refers to as "the eye of the dark sun").

As for people, and what "grew from seeds" means, there are a couple of relevant lines from The Book:

The people of the Nebula came from beyond the Old Sea and grew like plants from seeds
[After the crash] There was no choice but to wake the sleepers from their rest

That word sleepers is significant. I think the humans carried by the Heaven's Vault were in cold sleep/suspended animation. "Grew from seeds" is a poetic way of describing the pods the sleeping would-be colonists were kept in.

Many of the pods were apparently wrecked during the crash — hence that big graveyard on the HV moon — but enough survived to create a viable population, who originally lived on the HV moon but moved out to other moons as the robots terraformed them, using the air and water from the destroyed planet.

It's not clear to me what happened, because it's described in fairly vague terms in the inscriptions and The Book, but the humans rebelled against something the central AI/Seventh God was demanding. The etching in the "crashed ship" on the HV moon says he demanded "a tribute of people," but it's not clear whether the AI wanted to kill them or was demanding their labor to help repair the ship. The humans walled up the AI and sailed away from the HV moon (Book line: The people escaped from the moon of the tomb of the seventh God on wings and waters).

It's clear that the Seven Gods were the seven AI systems that ran the ship. It's not clear which is which, though I suspect Kibenya was life support. There were probably terminals like the one the miners discovered all over the Nebula, originally.

I've got a few theories about what happened, none of which I can verify, but here they are for what it's worth:

• The Nebula's settlers knew that it might take a long time for the ship to repair itself, especially after whatever they'd done to the Seventh God, so they created a mythology to be remembered. The symbolic representations of the AIs as Gods was part of that, as was the legend of the Old Sea.
  
• Iox was originally the home of some sort of school for training future techs/leaders: hence the name "Palace of Princes." Prince parses as "future king," and I don't think the word originally meant "king." It became read that way because of changes in governance over time and forgetting of the Nebula's origins and technology.
  
• (This one's kind of crackpot) The reason the Catkis Gate allows "pilgrims" to bring sharp instruments inside is that those pilgrims were originally technicians of some sort, zipping around the Nebula to maintain the various systems; they might well need some tools the Gate would register as weapons. Remember that up until Enkei's first revolution, Elboreth was the "capital" of the Nebula.
  
• The other resource the colonists created to make sure their descendants understood what was going on was the Library. The Book was written in somewhat metaphorical language in order to be understood by people who might have forgotten quite a lot. Unfortunately, the Library was burned 1225 years BG (before the game begins), possibly by people from nearby Renaki, given that a Renakian had the Library key. The question is why. We know it wasn't Enkei who was responsible (as part of her quest to wipe out Ancient), because she didn't even know of its existence.
  
• To speculate wildly: The Library was destroyed because of a religious movement, possibly tied to Loopism. (There's a rarely seen bit of dialogue if you ask a random Renkaian whether he reads, and he gets offended and says something about how reading is highly improper spiritually.) That would account for the total destruction and even the wrecking of the statue. The terminals may have also been destroyed at this point, except for the Buried God, which survived only because it was under some sort of cave-in.
  
• It seems possible that the Steel Empire arose because of the spread of religious fanaticism, with the robots deciding that the only way to protect both the humans and the mission was to take over. Note these lines from The Book:
  

  We must not forget to listen for the Seventh God’s voice
  We must not forget what is past, for what is past is future
  We must not forget the story or we will all be lost forever
  If we forget then we lose the path of the Seventh God

  But in any event, with the Library destroyed, much was forgotten, including the very existence of the Heaven's Vault. The final blow would have been Enkei's attempts to wipe out the worship of the Pantheon of Seven and the Ancient language.

[calvinspark]

Man, how are you getting all these quotes? I really wish the game allowed us to see past dialogues. This feels like playing a detective game (which we actually do play chasing Renba) without a way to review the notes.

Originally posted by eisen:

The people of the Nebula came from beyond the Old Sea and grew like plants from seeds
[After the crash] There was no choice but to wake the sleepers from their rest

That is very significant. I never saw this. Thank you.

Originally posted by eisen:

It's not clear to me what happened, because it's described in fairly vague terms in the inscriptions and The Book, but the humans rebelled against something the central AI/Seventh God was demanding. The etching in the "crashed ship" on the HV moon says he demanded "a tribute of people," but it's not clear whether the AI wanted to kill them or was demanding their labor to help repair the ship. The humans walled up the AI and sailed away from the HV moon (Book line: The people escaped from the moon of the tomb of the seventh God on wings and waters).

My take is that the tribute of people refers to Nebula being sucked in. For the humans, evidently, the Nebula was a fine place to live especially after the water hoppers. The vault taking it away is much like how the sea rose and engulfed the island.

Originally posted by eisen:

• Iox was originally the home of some sort of school for training future techs/leaders: hence the name "Palace of Princes." Prince parses as "future king," and I don't think the word originally meant "king." It became read that way because of changes in governance over time and forgetting of the Nebula's origins and technology.

As you know "king" is a "person.knowledge". I'm guessing it meant something like a guru.

Originally posted by eisen:

• (This one's kind of crackpot) The reason the Catkis Gate allows "pilgrims" to bring sharp instruments inside is that those pilgrims were originally technicians of some sort, zipping around the Nebula to maintain the various systems; they might well need some tools the Gate would register as weapons. Remember that up until Enkei's first revolution, Elboreth was the "capital" of the Nebula.
  
• The other resource the colonists created to make sure their descendants understood what was going on was the Library. The Book was written in somewhat metaphorical language in order to be understood by people who might have forgotten quite a lot. Unfortunately, the Library was burned 1225 years BG (before the game begins), possibly by people from nearby Renaki, given that a Renakian had the Library key. The question is why. We know it wasn't Enkei who was responsible (as part of her quest to wipe out Ancient), because she didn't even know of its existence.
  
• To speculate wildly: The Library was destroyed because of a religious movement, possibly tied to Loopism. (There's a rarely seen bit of dialogue if you ask a random Renkaian whether he reads, and he gets offended and says something about how reading is highly improper spiritually.) That would account for the total destruction and even the wrecking of the statue. The terminals may have also been destroyed at this point, except for the Buried God, which survived only because it was under some sort of cave-in.

That's what I thought too, except for the terminals. It's hard to imagine a Renakian travelling across the Nebula to find and destroy the terminals.

Originally posted by eisen:

• It seems possible that the Steel Empire arose because of the spread of religious fanaticism, with the robots deciding that the only way to protect both the humans and the mission was to take over. Note these lines from The Book:
  

  We must not forget to listen for the Seventh God’s voice
  We must not forget what is past, for what is past is future
  We must not forget the story or we will all be lost forever
  If we forget then we lose the path of the Seventh God

Interesting note about the robots' decision. Very possible. Are you suggesting that the robots wrote the book?

[ptor]

Originally posted by eisen:

It's not clear to me what happened, because it's described in fairly vague terms in the inscriptions and The Book, but the humans rebelled against something the central AI/Seventh God was demanding. The etching in the "crashed ship" on the HV moon says he demanded "a tribute of people," but it's not clear whether the AI wanted to kill them or was demanding their labor to help repair the ship

The Tribute of people could also have been to replenish the number of robots, or to make sure the population numbers would remain to a tenable level (see Six's comments to the slums'). or as a mean to avoid genetic aberrations (from inbreeding? keen eyes and gardening does imply grafting and pruning of dying parts for the good of the plant/garden)

Originally posted by eisen:

• The Nebula's settlers knew that it might take a long time for the ship to repair itself, especially after whatever they'd done to the Seventh God, so they created a mythology to be remembered. The symbolic representations of the AIs as Gods was part of that, as was the legend of the Old Sea.

Or maybe passing down the history through generations at some point begun feeling like "it's just a story", because it was too far removed from experience. Especially if all the hard proof was lost (Library, Vault...)

Originally posted by eisen:

Iox was originally the home of some sort of school for training future techs/leaders: hence the name "Palace of Princes." Prince parses as "future king," and I don't think the word originally meant "king." It became read that way because of changes in governance over time and forgetting of the Nebula's origins and technology.

[/quote]
What if "King" actually meant "Overseer"? As calvinspark points out, the "knowledge" glyph might well be "knows what is right and/or what has to be done".

I'm not sold on the catkis gate hypothesis: the implanted foil Oroi mentions would have been enough. But maybe it really meant "under orders from the gods to do something" (build the palace? a pickaxe is quite weapony)

Maybe the library was destroyed in an accident, or maybe as part of the revolution? The book being locked suggests it either was sealed because it was for initiates only, or because whoever destroyed the library didn't want it read

Originally posted by calvinspark:

Interesting note about the robots' decision. Very possible. Are you suggesting that the robots wrote the book?

We know the Book was made with robot technology, and there are reasons to believe it might have been written by a robot as well (the way it speaks of robots, for example, feels very "I know, I was there" and "robots care")

[calvinspark]

Originally posted by ptor:

The Tribute of people could also have been to replenish the number of robots, or to make sure the population numbers would remain to a tenable level (see Six's comments to the slums'). or as a mean to avoid genetic aberrations (from inbreeding? keen eyes and gardening does imply grafting and pruning of dying parts for the good of the plant/garden)

Do you have the exact quote for the pictogram that depicts "god demanding tribute"? I don't recall seeing "tribute of people" though I've only played it twice. I wonder if the god in the pictogram is the AI, the robots, or a mix of the two.

Originally posted by ptor:

Originally posted by eisen:

• Iox was originally the home of some sort of school for training future techs/leaders: hence the name "Palace of Princes." Prince parses as "future king," and I don't think the word originally meant "king." It became read that way because of changes in governance over time and forgetting of the Nebula's origins and technology.

What if "King" actually meant "Overseer"? As calvinspark points out, the "knowledge" glyph might well be "knows what is right and/or what has to be done".

+1

Originally posted by ptor:

I'm not sold on the catkis gate hypothesis: the implanted foil Oroi mentions would have been enough. But maybe it really meant "under orders from the gods to do something" (build the palace? a pickaxe is quite weapony)

Another fun idea:
"Pilgrim" => "person . verb move temple" => "person . verb move place god" =>
"a person who comes from the place of god" => If "the place of god" is HV
"a person who comes from HV" OR "a person who moves HV"!
In this (admittedly convoluted) translation, pilgrims are the original inhabitants of the HV

Originally posted by ptor:

Maybe the library was destroyed in an accident, or maybe as part of the revolution? The book being locked suggests it either was sealed because it was for initiates only, or because whoever destroyed the library didn't want it read

I'm thinking that a sabotage would look more destructive, though Mina's key fitting in the library door is a huge indication that links the library to Renaki. I'm not sure about the locks on the book - if it's an important scripture, shouldn't it be made more accessible not less?

Originally posted by ptor:

We know the Book was made with robot technology, and there are reasons to believe it might have been written by a robot as well (the way it speaks of robots, for example, feels very "I know, I was there" and "robots care")

Can you give me some lines about the book being made with robot technology? The library is after all one of the first structures created in the ancient times

[ptor]

Originally posted by calvinspark:

Originally posted by ptor:

The Tribute of people could also have been to replenish the number of robots, or to make sure the population numbers would remain to a tenable level (see Six's comments to the slums'). or as a mean to avoid genetic aberrations (from inbreeding? keen eyes and gardening does imply grafting and pruning of dying parts for the good of the plant/garden)

Do you have the exact quote for the pictogram that depicts "god demanding tribute"? I don't recall seeing "tribute of people" though I've only played it twice. I wonder if the god in the pictogram is the AI, the robots, or a mix of the two.

Sure! https://youtu.be/fK8vvHRN3nc?t=1173

Originally posted by calvinspark:

I'm thinking that a sabotage would look more destructive, though Mina's key fitting in the library door is a huge indication that links the library to Renaki. I'm not sure about the locks on the book - if it's an important scripture, shouldn't it be made more accessible not less? Can you give me some lines about the book being made with robot technology? The library is after all one of the first structures created in the ancient times

The key is probably a red herring, as the burned tower does have a gaping hole in the wall :D
It is possible fire was set inside and the door locked to trap the people in, the wall caving in some time after the arsonist left.
It is also possible the fire was just an accident, with all the parchments and books (of which accorrding to the spreadsheet there are some that can be found on the library moon, none of which I found LOL)
As for the book being locked down, it is not uusual that precious scripts be locked in place against theft. And even outside religious movements, there are often pieces that are considered inappropriate to be read by the uninitiated or unprepared.
As for being of robot origin, upon reexamining I was obviously wrong: the cover is leather, ornate; the pages have a ceramic-like quality (some hi-tech material whose construction method is lost); there is however no mention of mechanic carving (such as that on the miner's moon memorial). Regrettably there's no mention on the timeline of when the book dates; we know it contains references to the serpent's eye, which dates to the age of sail. My guess is that it makes the book a chronicle of events, thought why "lost future" is a mystery to me

[calvinspark]

Oh my god thank you for the video. I can't believe I missed the grave entirely on both plays!

Originally posted by ptor:

The key is probably a red herring, as the burned tower does have a gaping hole in the wall :D

There are very few keys in the game. I'd be disappointed at the writers if they made a fitting key as a red herring.

Originally posted by ptor:

It is possible fire was set inside and the door locked to trap the people in, the wall caving in some time after the arsonist left. It is also possible the fire was just an accident, with all the parchments and books

At the fallen chair Aliya remarks that "someone left in a hurry". Same is hinted through the sheets of paper laying around on the conference table. If the fire was an accident I think people would have come back and cleaned up the place. I guess then the story is pointing to an invasion. Eisen was suggesting Renakian loopists as the perpetrators, but is the loopism actually incompatible with the book? Loopists may welcome the history books if they believe it tells the future.

[eisen]

Originally posted by calvinspark:

Man, how are you getting all these quotes? I really wish the game allowed us to see past dialogues. This feels like playing a detective game (which we actually do play chasing Renba) without a way to review the notes.

Um, I do something that the developers don't want to encourage people to do, because it reveals some of the game's inner workings, by using the detailed game logs the program keeps. I of course do not recommend that you do the same.

Originally posted by calvinspark:

My take is that the tribute of people refers to Nebula being sucked in. For the humans, evidently, the Nebula was a fine place to live especially after the water hoppers. The vault taking it away is much like how the sea rose and engulfed the island.

I can't agree. It's unclear that the early settlers knew that the ship would end up taking such essential material; also, they did nothing to stop that by sealing the AI away. Also, the timeline tells us that people left the HV moon right after the ship was sealed, which was in 2501 BG.

Originally posted by calvinspark:

As you know "king" is a "person.knowledge". I'm guessing it meant something like a guru.

Actually, king parses as "person-truth." That's no less valid for your interpretation, though. It could also fit mine. I think of the techs as being like the Gods' acolytes.

Originally posted by calvinspark:

That's what I thought too, except for the terminals. It's hard to imagine a Renakian travelling across the Nebula to find and destroy the terminals.

Not quite what I meant, although I suspect that anti-sailing rules were introduced into Loopism only recently, because we have evidence that sailing was common well into the period of the Holy Empire. I think it's a way for the Loop Temple to keep control of people; I like Mina's reaction when Aliya points out that the Loop priests themselves sail quite a bit.

But I meant that the fanatical religious movement I've conjured up spread and resulted in destruction/sabotage of the terminals. There had to have been more, so we need to explain where they went. The Library was burned in 1225 BG, and the Steel Empire didn't arise until 950 BG, so there was a lot of time for it to spread.

Originally posted by calvinspark:

Interesting note about the robots' decision. Very possible. Are you suggesting that the robots wrote the book?

No, I wasn't. It could have been, but I doubt it. It displays more understanding of human psychology than most robots seem to show. Also, this seems too poetic for robots:

But until the heart is full, we wait.
We sail the rivers of the broken heart.
We make our homes on the moons of the Nebula.
We wait and we listen for the Seventh God's voice.

----------------------------------------

Originally posted by ptor:

The Tribute of people could also have been to replenish the number of robots, or to make sure the population numbers would remain to a tenable level (see Six's comments to the slums'). or as a mean to avoid genetic aberrations (from inbreeding? keen eyes and gardening does imply grafting and pruning of dying parts for the good of the plant/garden)

Re the last part, I think they were talking about the robots tending the colonists while they were in hibernation. I don't think it would have been to replenish robots, because there's no evidence that anyone before Enkei was putting human minds into robot bodies, but your suggestions about culling, etc., are certainly possible.

Originally posted by ptor:

Or maybe passing down the history through generations at some point begun feeling like "it's just a story", because it was too far removed from experience. Especially if all the hard proof was lost (Library, Vault...)

+1

Originally posted by ptor:

What if "King" actually meant "Overseer"? As calvinspark points out, the "knowledge" glyph might well be "knows what is right and/or what has to be done".

As I mentioned, it's in fact the "truth" glyph, but that doesn't change your argument. "Person-truth" works just as well.

We have a word that gets translated as overseer/master, and it parses as "slave-judge." (Slave parses as "person-robot," and judge parses as "decide-person," probably "person who decides." IOW, "the person who decides for/about slaves.")

Now, when the central AI switches from Ancient to Modern while addressing Aliya, it translates the word mykis as "overseer." Now, based on a lot of work some of us did on spoken Ancient, my probably means "machine," and we know it's the word kis that's currently held to mean "king." So, essentially, "person who directs machines." Presumably the interpretation changed over time as circumstances changed, so they needed a new word for "master/overseer."

The word the Catkis Gate uses to address you that gets translated as "pilgrim" is salle-cataliti. We haven't been able to translate salle properly, but Aliya does say that it's used in Patois to refer to things that have to do with sailing; cataliti is "sky" or "heaven." So you could translate it (very roughly) as "one who sails the heavens" — IOW, one who travels around a lot. You can see that meaning "pilgrim," but you can also see it meaning any number of other things.

Originally posted by ptor:

I'm not sold on the catkis gate hypothesis: the implanted foil Oroi mentions would have been enough. But maybe it really meant "under orders from the gods to do something" (build the palace? a pickaxe is quite weapony)

I'm not wedded to that hypothesis, which is why I referred to it as crackpot; I was trying to find a sensible explanation for the Gate's allowing pilgrims to bring in weapons.

Originally posted by ptor:

Maybe the library was destroyed in an accident, or maybe as part of the revolution? The book being locked suggests it either was sealed because it was for initiates only, or because whoever destroyed the library didn't want it read

According to Six, the Library was destroyed about 1225 BG, long before any revolutions. It's pretty clear, between Aliya and Six/Enkei, that the evidence points to arson. The statue was destroyed at that time as well, which, again, points to deliberate destruction. Also, the fire was allowed to burn itself out, using up most of the moon's air, which is less likely if a librarian set the fire by accident.

Originally posted by ptor:

We know the Book was made with robot technology, and there are reasons to believe it might have been written by a robot as well (the way it speaks of robots, for example, feels very "I know, I was there" and "robots care")

I don't know about "robot technology"—more like ancient, forgotten technology. The rest I addressed above. But it could go either way.

----------------------------------------------

Originally posted by calvinspark:

Do you have the exact quote for the pictogram that depicts "god demanding tribute"? I don't recall seeing "tribute of people" though I've only played it twice. I wonder if the god in the pictogram is the AI, the robots, or a mix of the two.

Here's the story of the pictograms, as related by Six or Enkei:

The etching tells the tale of a group of Gods who strode forward, across a wide desert from a place of much water, bringing water. They caused the fields here to be fertile … for a time. A village rose up around the God, to worship the God. The God demanded tribute. I cannot tell how often. A tribute of people.… And then the God was killed. And the God is above us, Mistress. I think this mountain holds the God's tomb.

This certainly seems to identify the God with the ship's AI. Although, as the robot points out, it's a pictogram, which makes interpretation tricky.

It also fits the warnings on the "tomb," the longest version of which is:

 Do not enter the tomb of the God of Heaven's Vault, for the God is dead and angry. The Seventh God inside this temple will drink the Nebula until all is dark.

Originally posted by calvinspark:

Another fun idea:
"Pilgrim" => "person . verb move temple" => "person . verb move place god" =>
"a person who comes from the place of god" => If "the place of god" is HV
"a person who comes from HV" OR "a person who moves HV"!
In this (admittedly convoluted) translation, pilgrims are the original inhabitants of the HV

You're basing this on the characters for the written word translated as "pilgrim," I take it. But when you go back to truly ancient Ancient, as spoken by the Catkis Gate, it's quite a different word, as I discussed above.

Originally posted by calvinspark:

I'm not sure about the locks on the book - if it's an important scripture, shouldn't it be made more accessible not less?

Missed replying to this above. The book isn't locked; you can open it and read it. It's just chained to its stand to prevent people from randomly walking away with it, showing how valuable it was considered (as does the fact that it was made of non-flammable material, which the arsonists apparently didn't know.

[ptor]

Originally posted by calvinspark:

There are very few keys in the game. I'd be disappointed at the writers if they made a fitting key as a red herring.

A key hints it opens something, and it points to the library location: a call to adventure item. It might not be a red herring re:what happened (but how does it fit in the timeline?), but it sure made me waste a lot of time on unskippable text (the timer keeps ticking while you talk/decode)

Originally posted by calvinspark:

At the fallen chair Aliya remarks that "someone left in a hurry". Same is hinted through the sheets of paper laying around on the conference table. If the fire was an accident I think people would have come back and cleaned up the place. I guess then the story is pointing to an invasion

Between the almost totality of the air being consumed and the library being wholly destroyed, there wasn't much to come back to. An invasion (force?) might have also killed or captured all who wanted to protect the library

Originally posted by eisen:

Um, I do something that the developers don't want to encourage people to do, because it reveals some of the game's inner workings, by using the detailed game logs the program keeps. I of course do not recommend that you do the same.

Clever! I didn't think of doing that

Originally posted by eisen:

I can't agree. It's unclear that the early settlers knew that the ship would end up taking such essential material; also, they did nothing to stop that by sealing the AI away.

The book of lost future has lines that say someone knew. My hypothesis is that they walled instead of destroyed for a mixture of fear of retribution and fear of breaking the things that kept the nebula alive.
There is also the chance they thought stopping the gods from seeing there were still humans and/or receiving tribute would make them cease their sucking

Originally posted by eisen:

Not quite what I meant, although I suspect that anti-sailing rules were introduced into Loopism only recently, because we have evidence that sailing was common well into the period of the Holy Empire. I think it's a way for the Loop Temple to keep control of people; I like Mina's reaction when Aliya points out that the Loop priests themselves sail quite a bit.

+1

Originally posted by eisen:

But I meant that the fanatical religious movement I've conjured up spread and resulted in destruction/sabotage of the terminals. There had to have been more, so we need to explain where they went. The Library was burned in 1225 BG, and the Steel Empire didn't arise until 950 BG, so there was a lot of time for it to spread.

Killed, imprisoned (on builder's moon?), or otherwise not numbering enough yet for the full revolution? We're talking a small inflammable unprotected library vs a well protected citadel, after all...

Originally posted by eisen:

The word the Catkis Gate uses to address you that gets translated as "pilgrim" is salle-cataliti. We haven't been able to translate salle properly, but Aliya does say that it's used in Patois to refer to things that have to do with sailing; cataliti is "sky" or "heaven." So you could translate it (very roughly) as "one who sails the heavens" — IOW, one who travels around a lot. You can see that meaning "pilgrim," but you can also see it meaning any number of other things.

My instinct is saying "sailor", "traveller". Which still does not explain why sharp items would be acceptable. Unless it was "no weapons if you're a local, whatever if you're not", which makes even less logical sense (against invaders) but maybe allows for merchants of say cutlery and building instruments. But I'm still unconvinced by my idea :D

Originally posted by eisen:

Also, the fire was allowed to burn itself out, using up most of the moon's air, which is less likely if a librarian set the fire by accident.

Have you ever seen a library burn? It's vicious even now, the best you can do is grab some books on the way out and GTFO, especially if there were only a couple of people around when it burned. BTW I recommend reading or watching "The name of the rose"

Originally posted by eisen:

Missed replying to this above. The book isn't locked; you can open it and read it.

I clearly missed that ability in my playthroughs... OOOPS!