Thoughts on the combat?

[Accel Lex]

I'll start by saying I'm loving the game overall. I'm having a lot of fun, gliding, grappling hooking around, killing things, hoarding loot, mapping out the mats, etc.

I'm just curious on what other people think about the combat, if I'm missing something, or what.

Personally, I am not a huge fan of the combat as of right now.
I'm going to use other games like Grounded and Valheim as a reference, even thought they're different games, since from what I gather, comments I see from people playing this game tend to at least be familiar with those games.

I typically like features like perfect blocks, being able to block or dodge that cancels attack animation, moving while attacking.
Certain games like Dark Soul don't have that feature, and it makes sense in the game. So for PVP, for example, players have to commit to their actions.
That said, I encounter many situations in combat here that lead me to think the best course of action is tanking while spamming, rather than attack/dodging.

When fighting multiple opponents, features like perfect blocking comes in handy, since it rewards paying attention to every enemy. In Grounded, if I'm surrounded by many enemies, I feel like I need to play more defensively, but know I can still survive so long as I pay attention. I attack with caution, but get ready to perform a perfect block at a moment's notice. Same with Valheim. This makes fighting multiple enemies fun and engaging.
With this game, even if I block, it doesn't block all the damage. Most of the actions take a lot of stamina, so whether I block, dodge, jump, or attack, my stamina is going to go fast. Enemies are good at backing away during combat, but it gets annoying not being able to move forward while attacking, and not being able to cancel animation with a block, so I'm left defenseless while waiting for attack animation to finish.
If I get surrounded by multiple enemies, since blocking will drain my stamina while not protecting me (it'll drain my stamina and health anyways), dodging will drain stamina faster, and careful attack/dodging will leave me most likely missing the attack. Since I'm going to lose stamina anyways, my best strategy right now is just taking all the hits and getting as many hits as possible. Since I have good armor and regen, it works, but it feels like I'm not having an engaging fight.

The majority of my entertainment so far is enjoying the scenery, traveling, killing things that disrespect my autoritah, and more grappling hooking.

[Tanyon]

Originally posted by Greybush:

Originally posted by OGPG:

I guess you're just better than me then. Congrats to you.

Or I'm not as impatient.
Or, seeing as my skill level in games tends to hover around average to slightly above average, I simply use it differently than you do.

Your post is basically a "get gud post" MOST people in this thread agree that the combat needs work and while we are happy that YOU seem to have no problem with it that does not diminish or invalidate OUR position on the combat system.

You think I'm not patient? I literally fought a stag beetle with a wood sword for like 10 minutes.. wait for attack, roll/try to counter repeat.. it's not that it's hard it's that the bugs cheat they are constantly on you, even when you dodge they are always facing you it's a TERRIBLE system. Period.

So while we are all ECSTATIC that you are having an easy go of it.. and we all pat you on the back.. the fact remains that for most of us it sucks and needs to be worked on.

[Greybush]

Originally posted by DarthTanyon:

Originally posted by Greybush:

Or I'm not as impatient.
Or, seeing as my skill level in games tends to hover around average to slightly above average, I simply use it differently than you do.

Your post is basically a "get gud post" MOST people in this thread agree that the combat needs work and while we are happy that YOU seem to have no problem with it that does not diminish or invalidate OUR position on the combat system.

You think I'm not patient? I literally fought a stag beetle with a wood sword for like 10 minutes.. wait for attack, roll/try to counter repeat.. it's not that it's hard it's that the bugs cheat they are constantly on you, even when you dodge they are always facing you it's a TERRIBLE system. Period.

So while we are all ECSTATIC that you are having an easy go of it.. and we all pat you on the back.. the fact remains that for most of us it sucks and needs to be worked on.

Thank you for giving a nice demonstration of how being impatient usually leads to failure.
And 10 minutes is not a long time for a boss fight, especially when it's the last boss with a starter weapon.
(and yes, that does answer your question about whether or not I think you're patient)

See, if you'd had the patience to actually read through the thread, you'd notice that I specifically said that combat still needed some work.

Now I'm really sorry that you're so touchy that you think someone pointing out that something you can't get to work does in fact work hurts your ego, but that doesn't (to put it in your words) "diminish or invalidate my position". Walk it off, champ.

To the original point, no, the combat system isn't perfect. And dodge, along with block and stamina costs, could definitely be improved. But needing improvement isn't the same as not working.

[MeGa]

Combat is fluid enough, combos not bad, but feels like doge needs some iframes to be reliable.

Also lacks some skills, xp system so its worth killing ants endlessly, or a perk unlock system
Each game has its own! This one has none xD

[Drudackus]

My combat abilities in this game are probably mediocre, at best. But here's my thoughts anyway.
Regardless of the vulnerabilities, I tend to avoid the Blunt weapons because the followthrough on their attacks is so long, compared to Edged weapons, and counterattack from bugs are largely unavoidable.
In contrast, Edged weapons have very little followthrough, so you can strike and roll away fairly consistently. So regardless of the vulnerabilities, the Edged weapons are more effective sustained combat with multiple foes.
Piercing weapons are somewhere in the middle.

Its a shame because from an esthetic perspective, I really like the hammers.
I think I may be part dwarf.
I have certainly embraced the face-tanking from time to time, particularly with the Blunt weapons. But that just adds to the myth of dwarves having drinking problems, due to the need for regular healing that may be otherwise avoided. At the very least, if that's the approach available, I'd like a shield to complete the package. Either way, I would prefer a finesse-based alternative regardless of weapon type.

Another aspect is that virtually all bugs' attacks come in the form of a lunge. But our avatar only seems to have one lunge type attack with the spear. At least, that's what I've observed so far. I'd be interested to see how the feel of combat would be effected by the inclusion of more lunge/mobility mechanics.

[Greybush]

Originally posted by MeGa:

Combat is fluid enough, combos not bad, but feels like doge needs some iframes to be reliable.

Also lacks some skills, xp system so its worth killing ants endlessly, or a perk unlock system
Each game has its own! This one has none xD

Completely agree!

[Greybush]

Originally posted by Drudackus:

My combat abilities in this game are probably mediocre, at best. But here's my thoughts anyway.
Regardless of the vulnerabilities, I tend to avoid the Blunt weapons because the followthrough on their attacks is so long, compared to Edged weapons, and counterattack from bugs are largely unavoidable.
In contrast, Edged weapons have very little followthrough, so you can strike and roll away fairly consistently. So regardless of the vulnerabilities, the Edged weapons are more effective sustained combat with multiple foes.
Piercing weapons are somewhere in the middle.

I tried blunt weapons, but also think they felt too slow on both attacks and recovery. If they had noticeably higher damage, that'd be a fair trade, but as it is I can't be bothered with them.
Spears I really like, though! A little slower than swords, but a little more range and both the heavy attack and light attacks work great with dodging to the flanks. Swords I like for all-round purposes, like a bunch of grey flies or ants.
Bow feels really inaccurate, but that could just be my less-than-great aim.

[Drudackus]

Just revisiting my earlier comments regarding Blunt vs Edged weapons. I have since crafted and tested the Lubber Club, which cost 20 Stamina, like the Edged Weapons, compared to the 30 required for most Blunt weapons. It has a shorter followthrough than the Iron Hammer and Morningstar and can be used in a similar Hit/Dodge Roll combo like the Edged weapons. Which is useful, but given that it does only a fraction over half the damage, and lacks the look and feel, of the Iron Hammer and Morningstar, its a pretty unpalatable compromise.
Compared to the Edged weapons, the Lubber Club is probably slightly ahead of the Edged weapons when used against bugs with Blunt vulnerability, because it short followthrough mitigates the vulnerability experienced with the Hammer and Morningstar. But esthetically, the Edged weapons are my preferred option.

None of this is of any great consequence, but I find the style of combat more intrinsic to my enjoyment than the raw effectiveness of any specific weapon. The inclusion of the Vulnerability mechanics is a great idea, but what makes it better is that because of the look and feel of the weapons I prefer using the less effective one to suit my preferred style of combat, rather than going for maximum damage.

No doubt my preferences will change if/when shields are added and as the combat mechanics are refined.

[Subsonic]

Because of equipment durability issues, I try to maximize my moves rather than relying on speed for multiple fast hits. Same with armor, I try to not get hit as much as possible because the costs for repairs, if you don't or can't do it very frequently, can be inconvenient sometimes. Some mobs you just have to go toe to toe with but most of them have tells that you can watch for to help with dodge timing (just like many games with the dodge mechanic). I'm not a great twitch player by any means, but I've played enough to just try to work within the system instead of wanting the system to be similar to some other setup or game. Can't be pleasantly surprised by new mechanics if you only want specific elements. Being forced outside your comfort zone and having to adapt to survive brings useful experience.

[Drudackus]

Originally posted by Subsonic:

Because of equipment durability issues, I try to maximize my moves rather than relying on speed for multiple fast hits.

This raises a point I have wondered about. I infer from your approach that you think the weapons undergo the same, or similar, amount of durability damage regardless of whether you're delivering a normal or heavy attack. Do you know if that is the case? Or is the durability damage increase for heavy attacks?

[Subsonic]

Originally posted by Drudackus:

Originally posted by Subsonic:

Because of equipment durability issues, I try to maximize my moves rather than relying on speed for multiple fast hits.

This raises a point I have wondered about. I infer from your approach that you think the weapons undergo the same, or similar, amount of durability damage regardless of whether you're delivering a normal or heavy attack. Do you know if that is the case? Or is the durability damage increase for heavy attacks?

No, don't have the answer to that. I use multiple weapons so that I have the right damage type vs the bug I'm facing, and if I can get off a heavy attack then I'll do it--but at least not using something that will take longer to kill the mob (meaning, needing more hits to finish the job especially vs resistances).

[Xained]

Completely agree with (almost) all of the above. It's not fun when you start with your wooden sword. can barely beat 3 ants and a beetle without breaking the wooden sword. Can't elude ennemies, dodges are lazy, combat is not pleasant at all.

[Red]

I'm a yapaholic and this turned out way longer than I thought it would. TL;DR: Combat is very solvable if you exploit the AI a bit but it should probably be made to be less frustrating if you don't do that. Also add combo finale damage.

Double edit and that I did not notice this was practically a necro. Oops.

Combat is largely...All right. Being a mighty Vanguard and being able to swing your weapon three times before getting winded is a bit annoying, but I haven't fussed with Stamina potions yet, so maybe those alleviate that a bit. Even with the stamina restrictions, unless you're using an inefficient weapon, most enemies go down in a few seconds.

As I've gotten used to perfect parrying and dodge rolling, it's clear that the game clearly "wants" you to be parrying most of the time. The enemy you parried gets stunned for a few moments and you can usually dump your entire stamina bar into whatever you're fighting. Rinse and repeat a few times and badaboom.

Bugs are pretty relentless if you can't do this though, and a good few bugs have attacks that come out fast, so if you get thrown off the rhythm, it can be tricky to get back on it. I've used the dodge roll more as a "disengage" than a dodge roll. Since bugs that walk at you will "queue" up an attack and then use it as soon as you get in range, you can get some very easy attack timings by forcing them to follow you a bit and just blocking when you get in range.

The above paragraph leans a bit more into "how the AI for the game itself works" though, and not everyone will want to play like that. You DO get out of the phase where your weapons break in two hits very fast, yes, but the base durability on items should be a bit beefier, and if weapons are going to take as much stamina as they do, I'd at least like the last hit in my combo to do a bit more damage.

[Tanyon]

Originally posted by Greybush:

Originally posted by DarthTanyon:

Your post is basically a "get gud post" MOST people in this thread agree that the combat needs work and while we are happy that YOU seem to have no problem with it that does not diminish or invalidate OUR position on the combat system.

You think I'm not patient? I literally fought a stag beetle with a wood sword for like 10 minutes.. wait for attack, roll/try to counter repeat.. it's not that it's hard it's that the bugs cheat they are constantly on you, even when you dodge they are always facing you it's a TERRIBLE system. Period.

So while we are all ECSTATIC that you are having an easy go of it.. and we all pat you on the back.. the fact remains that for most of us it sucks and needs to be worked on.

Thank you for giving a nice demonstration of how being impatient usually leads to failure.
And 10 minutes is not a long time for a boss fight, especially when it's the last boss with a starter weapon.
(and yes, that does answer your question about whether or not I think you're patient)

See, if you'd had the patience to actually read through the thread, you'd notice that I specifically said that combat still needed some work.

Now I'm really sorry that you're so touchy that you think someone pointing out that something you can't get to work does in fact work hurts your ego, but that doesn't (to put it in your words) "diminish or invalidate my position". Walk it off, champ.

To the original point, no, the combat system isn't perfect. And dodge, along with block and stamina costs, could definitely be improved. But needing improvement isn't the same as not working.

I know this is an old post but this was not a boss fight you clown.. it was a normal enemy that I fought for 10 minutes..