Balancing hero, class, abilities, transformations and weapons

[Anaztazioch]

I love the idea of the game, graphics, general UI... but the game has some killer motives.

1) hero generation
Many aspects are rollno control which is fine if it didint mean i have crap hero or god aspirant. Having regen evey 6 days, 4 movement, 92 accuracy, 25 years vs regen is 3 days, 5 movement, 102 accuracy, 18 years is bullcrap.
The loss of movement and accuracy is not rewarded by higher HP, better dodge, extra start armor, its just roll to win.

And yeah, dodge+block chance go in pair with above, i can have an ultra lvl 1 or farmer that get 1 shot and its ok to lose him.

We could also be hinted what hooks give, its unfavourable for a game to require a guide to know its dice.

2) Classes

Yeah Warrior beats all. You can make GOD warrior and solo the game on lunch while that cant be done with other classes. They level up faster, gain strength faster, have more powerful abilities, transformation themes favour melee.

Hunters are very good, but they cant murder everyone in vicinity in one turn. But mostly, they slow XP makes them weak. level 4+ hunters are generally very valuable and attack enemies warrior cant get to... something mystic without envireoment or fire cant do.

Mystics never get a level up and are enviroment relient unless you get ability to make fire. And once you get transformed arms you lose wand/staff your spells lose spell power from equipment making the char VERY weak.

3) Abilities

Like with many games, there is "good build" and "bad build", but here its trash abilities and GOD abilities.

Trash abilities:
Battledance - most of time you either one hit kill or have to walk up to enemy to hit, making this ability trully useless, i have not once used it in 42 hours even tough had many warriors with it.
Backslam - never seen it do any good, maybe on escape/escort maps but its pretty weak. Swift action and needs a shield while shields are TERRIBLE, this just takes up the spot for ability
Raider - compared to damage dont by warrior attacks, this is useless. Swift action, but you waste an ability point.
Engage - yeah AI likes to go at your hunters and mystics, but losing ability point for "taunting" one enemy is terrible idea. Cant even say its early game useful as it works only on one enemy.

OK tier:
Stelwart - yeah it can be very useful when warrior is low level, but ranging from lvl 4 your damage output and mobility as well as available armor makes this obsolate.
Sentinel - A very good pick if you use low range weapon and dont have extended range abilities. There are better abilities tough.
Thundering Challenge - Bertter than Engage as unlike Engage the target wont attack even the warrior. Far higher usefulness.
Shieldshear -
Wolfcall - its ok one, helps with allround buff but nothing aside it. pick it if GOD abilities are not available.
Zealous Leap - this is actually very good, but mostly becase it works VERY well with battledance and Sentinel. Still better abilities to take
Bloodrage - yeah its ok, but better ones are available.
Untouchable - if you dont have GOD tier build this is very good. Otherwise you will not see it being used.

GOD TIER:
Vigilance - This is GOD ability. Level up get potency items and a spear. This will allow you to kill anything that gets near, because of spears range you can hit a single target 2 times.
Paladin - extra mobility, if im not mistaken it can be upgraded, so that you enter guardian even after attacking.
Broadswipe - it attacks EVERYONE in range, not cleaves to adjecant to target. This works with Guardian.

So now i had a hero that went with VIGILANCE, PALADIN, BROADSWIPES, LONG REACH, VISCOUSNESS, ENDURANCE, VIGILANCE upgrade to enter guardian after attacking
Shes a spear user has range of 4, 5 reaction attack, deals +1 damage, can just charget her up front and with breadswipes she can clear map in just reaction turn.

Same for hunter with piercing shots, archery, throughshot, crippling, ambush....

4) Transformations

Most transformations favour MELEE. you transform a hand - cant use a bow or staff
Transform two arms, cant use bows, crossbows, staffs or wands. This renders Hunter and Mystic class and their abilities USELESS on many ocasions. You have through shot, archery, ambush and bang - you cant use it.

Mystics lose want/staff spelldamage or accessory potency buff - meaning their spells AKA class deals less damage.

Warrior - yeah you can be forbidden to use spears, which impact your range. But still LONG REACH will do wonders, and you can cast theme swift abilities in addition to attacks. AND ALL WARRIOR ABILITIES WORK WITH ALL THEMES unlike hunter and mystic.

This needs to be rebalanced.

And yeah, there are godlike transforms for warrior. The mentioned long reach-broadswipes-vigilant-viscious-paladin has crow wings for dodging and 6 movement and head for swift actiion broadswipes long reach free extra beak attack.

This HAS to be remade.

5) Weapons

Daggers - this is crap weapon, because enemy needs to be engaged to be backstabbed. With how the game works currently, most of times i kill ANY targets that gets near with broadswiping vigilant warrior or put them so low on HP that i dont need backstab dagger bonus. Whats worse, if "hunter" goes up to kill enemy ranged or fresh spawned... he cant backstab as they are not engaged... And if they get engaged by ranged attack, they will drop low HP so that you dont need backstab bonus. I switched my melee hunter to one handed axe and throwing axes - murders everything and goes into greyplane.

Swords and axes - extra block and dodge vs shreading. On low levels its balanced, but higher levels where enemies have 40% more HP and 4 more armor, shreading takes over.

Rapier - really ? 15 stunt ? BY level 5 i have 50 stunt on all classes, stuning from relationship it can be like 80. See no reason to use it.

Crossbows vs Bows - Basicly crossbows have shorter range, short enough that they set up hunter to be one shotted. I know they are there to make hunters be ranged with transformed hand, but... its really crappy.

There are alot of things to change. I one playthrough had 2 GODS - Human with Snetinel, upgraded breadswipes, paladin, visciousness and ai - Full firetouched by event - and yeah on normal dificulty even with crap abilities he was GOD.
Those two guys could stop 12 strength enemy army.

[Jack the Roamer]

Raider is extremely good if you pair it with a Hunter that has Embers and Throughshot). If you want a Spellsword focus on a Mystic, to buff the Hunter even better. Honestly all these are good depending on your campaign (main antagonist race). Vigilance with Paladin and Untouchable, with block/dodge gear will make you nigh indestructible. Wolfcall + Bloodrage is great with transformations, I almost can never not bring my fully transformed wolf boy with me. He ends up having such ludicrous speed and attack power by the 3rd-4th chapter. I literally oneshot a boss with Frenzy, with the party speed buffed, now they can all spread out and do some major damage or kite enemies back to my Warrior with 4 reaction attacks under spellsword or lightning learned.

On that note, Battledance is pretty trash until you upgrade it, giving your melee potentially 4 attacks every turn. Upgraded engage needs a bigger range also, but this works great with Trap playstyle. (sharknado, ambush, vigilance, etc) esp. in tight spaces

There are many ways to min-max, not all of them are as strong, but that's what makes it fun and engaging. If you want to destroy the campaign with 3 clone warriors, that's all on you.

[Greenegg]

do people actually not notice that their mystics level up slower?

I disagree with a lot of what OP says, but warriors are by far the easiest class. Mystics and hunters can for sure be just as powerful, but you have to know how to build them, warriors you can just slap together abilities that sound good and you'll be golden.

also yeah, daggers are garbo, flanking might just need a rework to make them viable though. Perhaps change it from needing to be hit to be engaged to just having another person in melee range?

Spears/greatspears also could probably use a tiny nerf, the extra range is just so valuable, perhaps other weapons just need a buff instead?

overall the balance is fine imo, it's perfectly playable and every class feels valuable, there are just some small but noticeable balance issues.

[Anaztazioch]

Originally posted by Angel:

Originally posted by Anaztazioch:

I love the idea of the game, graphics, general UI... but the game has some killer motives.

Your arguments about hunter e.g. have not much value to me since my hunters do the most kills faster than warriors can do. Last but not least due choice of equipment and good usage of skills. Taking out multiple enemies in close range with hunter unscathed? Yes, my hunters can do that so far better than warriors even with bypassing armour and applying poison.

Mystics relying too much on stuff unless they get fire? Nope. Got a mystic with a crossbow and axe. She never had to rely on stuff lying around. But if there is stuff she deals most damage in even more versatile ways than a hunter depending on their skilling.

Every weapon have their legitimate usage. Whether you like that gameplay or not, is up to you. But that only means you might not see their potential. What might be useless on lower challenges can be golden later on.

I do not understand what you mean with gaining level either. So far there is very little differences in points the heroes get during a battle. Mostly when a battle gives points it is equally distributed as good as possible. Sometimes events enhance that level with optional quests. But it never felt to be limited to warriors only to me. It is more a character trait thing I like to believe.

I cut some points to save space.

Hunter in not useless - They are RNG proof unlike warriors.
You can get a warrior with low speed, low melee accuracy, low reach, i had warriors that never had any of the high tier abilities. But still, he got crystal in his eye and the swift eying he began to be useful. Than with levels he was valuable pick.

Now Hunter doesnt really need abilities to work good. His biggest drawback is slower leveling than warrior. On lunch campaign difficulty, monsters gain power faster than you can level up, but starting from level 4, you can deal solid damage to even 3/4 armor enemies - regardless of class.

Dont really know why play mystic with a crossbow - plaything wise. But once again, leveling. Before you get damage bonus enough to overpower monster cards...

Basicly the break event point for all classes is level 4. 160 XP for warrior, 244 for hunter, 288 for mystic - that is based on Damage/potency. Fun thing - when mystic reaches level 4, warrior is 12 XP short to level 5.

I agree with most of your points, but plaing on hardest difficulty im starting to wonder how would the game look like if all my recruits were warriors. All i know is that my Crow legacy hero can taxi new recruits though any random encounter.

Game saddly feels either so easy, or... unplayable.

[Anaztazioch]

Originally posted by Greenegg:

do people actually not notice that their mystics level up slower?

I disagree with a lot of what OP says, but warriors are by far the easiest class. Mystics and hunters can for sure be just as powerful, but you have to know how to build them, warriors you can just slap together abilities that sound good and you'll be golden.

also yeah, daggers are garbo, flanking might just need a rework to make them viable though. Perhaps change it from needing to be hit to be engaged to just having another person in melee range?

Spears/greatspears also could probably use a tiny nerf, the extra range is just so valuable, perhaps other weapons just need a buff instead?

overall the balance is fine imo, it's perfectly playable and every class feels valuable, there are just some small but noticeable balance issues.

General balance yes, but it can be extreme GOD or extreme crap.

I find that when a hero reaches level 4 he can deal with any enemy even on late chapters. Problem is that mystics want to retire at level 3 if you dont play promoted legacy or have lucky events.

[Chiatroll]

I agree that themes arms are frequently at conflict with non-warriors. Getting I'll take head, and maybe legs, or wings but skip arms. I had great luck with a full fire rogue because the movement gave me good positions for AoE, but unless the character is a warrior just being out of place for a moment is a huge risk. The theme perks made a huge difference though. Generally I'm turning down hand transformations on themes because losing my staff or bow tends to be a rough deal.

I think warriors are a bit ahead of the curve for balance but I don't think it's that drastic. Mystics are often one of my biggest damage sources especially with the ability to start fire and elementalist rolling the fire across crowds. It's hard to get good sources of AoE in this game. Other times mystics that summon and explode trees tend to be an amazing source of control. I will say my favorite to mystic builds about removing luck of the environment from the equation so I can't say environment reliance isn't an issue.

I find your tiers rating warriors abilities to disagree with mind a lot. A combo Zealous leap, battledance, and untouchable was my strongest warrior I've had so far. Always getting in double attacking and surviving the counter attack. I also give engage a high rating not for the taunt but for the armor+control. I found broadstrokes damage to be low for the AoE compared to just having a mystic in the right spot. This game is mostly position so being in the right spot isn't an abnormal requirement.

I like daggers. The last time I killed a huge boss in round one it was because of 2 very mobile hunters using daggers. They are high risk high reward, but I've done well over 20 damage and flipped back to the grey plane with a single attack as a rogue with a dagger.

Some fights favor some classes. Sometimes if everyone could just flip to the grey plane and move at hunter speeds a mission would be super easy and other times someone goes off alone and bumps a bosses butt again and again to get them into a spot and feel warriors are the most important part.

Also I generally just roll for a charisma or tenacity bonus when not pulling from the legacy. The bonuses end up pretty slight by level four.

[zgrssd]

Originally posted by Anaztazioch:

Originally posted by Greenegg:

do people actually not notice that their mystics level up slower?

I disagree with a lot of what OP says, but warriors are by far the easiest class. Mystics and hunters can for sure be just as powerful, but you have to know how to build them, warriors you can just slap together abilities that sound good and you'll be golden.

also yeah, daggers are garbo, flanking might just need a rework to make them viable though. Perhaps change it from needing to be hit to be engaged to just having another person in melee range?

Spears/greatspears also could probably use a tiny nerf, the extra range is just so valuable, perhaps other weapons just need a buff instead?

overall the balance is fine imo, it's perfectly playable and every class feels valuable, there are just some small but noticeable balance issues.

General balance yes, but it can be extreme GOD or extreme crap.

I find that when a hero reaches level 4 he can deal with any enemy even on late chapters. Problem is that mystics want to retire at level 3 if you dont play promoted legacy or have lucky events.

Mystics want to retire at level 3???

Mystics get +20 Retirement age. I can do a full 5 chapter campaign - maximum peacetime - and it would take something like a -20 Retirement age just to see the starting mystic even consider retiring.

The starting mystic in the "Bones of Summer" campaign is likely to retire - because he literally starts at 50 years - +30 over baseline.

[SpacePoon]

Calling Battledance 'trash' tier is laughable. You must play on adventure difficulty lol

[Tuskai]

Daggers aren't bad, since they do double damage on a Flank strike (So they also have Perfect accuracy), and that double damage applies to any other damage buff you have. You can even get an Artifact Dagger from the Drauven Campaign that has the Range of a spear and bonus stunt damage. Their usage is for killing those big, tanky miniboss/boss type enemies that have 30+ health, and they do that job better than any other weapon, which is quite useful in higher difficulties, when the actually dangerous enemies have a chance to make it into the enemy deck.

You don't even need to commit a full other unit turn to setup the flank, as if you use say, throwing daggers or axs in your off hand, or any theme based swift action like Crow peck/Wolf bite,, you can use a swift action to prime a direction, then use a single action move to flank, and then get the backstab bonus all with a single character's turn.

[Deso]

Warriors can "only" attack more often, more targets and create a strong one of control with those skills. So I agree they are above other classes most of the time with said skills.

Hunters have few options for AoE/multi-attack:

• Pierce through is required to do aoe consistent damage. you can supplement it with a lot of passive skills.
  
• Archery is amazing - the free counterattack happening when someone close is attacked is a lot of free damage.
  
• Poison active requires potency but it paysoff. Since it's not a end of turn ability, you can use it twice if you don't move - mass poison for 8+ is quite appealing.
  
• Add in some flash bangs and snare traps.

Mystics have

• Humanist+ AoE stun that is uber.
  
• The usual Mass damage/shred splinter.
  
• Earth's bone spamming and passive defense.
  
• Plant control and high dps.
  
• And myth walker stats. Well books are a good source of stun.
  
• All the main specialization options all have a way to keep infinite material (fire, plant trees, spam bones and keep a shardnado around).
  
• But my biggest surprise was indignance, soul splicing and vigor flow - these abilities are way more effective than they appear at first.

[zgrssd]

Originally posted by Deso:

Warriors can only attack more often, more targets and create a strong one of control with those skills.

I agree they are above other classes most of the time.

Try hunter's shoot through with pierce and poison. Add in some flash bangs and snare traps.

Mystics have humanist AoE stun. Mass damage shred splinter. Earth bone spamming and defense. Plant control and high dps. And myth walker stats.
The main specialization have a way to keep infinite material.
But the biggest surprise was indignance, soul splicing and vigor flow - these abilities are way more effective than they appear.

Indignance looks weak when you got it on level 1, because it does 1+1/2 Potency damage. So usually 1 or 2.
But the upgraded version scales 1:1 with potency, which is one secondary stat mystics get a ton off. You are basically walking and enemies just desintegrate all around you.

[Chiatroll]

Originally posted by zgrssd:

Originally posted by Deso:

Warriors can only attack more often, more targets and create a strong one of control with those skills.

I agree they are above other classes most of the time.

Try hunter's shoot through with pierce and poison. Add in some flash bangs and snare traps.

Mystics have humanist AoE stun. Mass damage shred splinter. Earth bone spamming and defense. Plant control and high dps. And myth walker stats.
The main specialization have a way to keep infinite material.
But the biggest surprise was indignance, soul splicing and vigor flow - these abilities are way more effective than they appear.

Indignance looks weak when you got it on level 1, because it does 1+1/2 Potency damage. So usually 1 or 2.
But the upgraded version scales 1:1 with potency, which is one secondary stat mystics get a ton off. You are basically walking and enemies just desintegrate all around you.

Yeah, I had a mystic who took indignance early and I though it could be ok but not great.

It's damage picks up and he would walk next enemies and then still have his other actions to perform. It was a lot better then I expected it to be.

I've never actually tried vigorflow though. I imagine it's nice for bows and transformed mystics.

I haven't really had abilities I grabbed and just found useless but some abilities I found too situational to choose frequently. Compulsion being a good example because it was great when I had a setup that used it. Mythweaver was another example, because it was great when something existed it interacted with but there isn't a skill like arches or ignite for mythweaver to produce the interaction when it's missing from a map.

[zgrssd]

Originally posted by Chiatroll:

Originally posted by zgrssd:

Indignance looks weak when you got it on level 1, because it does 1+1/2 Potency damage. So usually 1 or 2.
But the upgraded version scales 1:1 with potency, which is one secondary stat mystics get a ton off. You are basically walking and enemies just desintegrate all around you.

Yeah, I had a mystic who took indignance early and I though it could be ok but not great.

It's damage picks up and he would walk next enemies and then still have his other actions to perform. It was a lot better then I expected it to be.

I've never actually tried vigorflow though. I imagine it's nice for bows and transformed mystics.

I haven't really had abilities I grabbed and just found useless but some abilities I found too situational to choose frequently. Compulsion being a good example because it was great when I had a setup that used it. Mythweaver was another example, because it was great when something existed it interacted with but there isn't a skill like archers or ignite for mythweaver to produce the interaction when it's missing from a map.

Mythweaver depends on the main enemy. Maps involving Thrixl and Deepists usually having some nodes around.
Similar Humanitst works realy well with Morthagi as main foe - plenty of tools to weaponize.

I found compulsion most usefull on a Crystall Transformed one - "Walk closer, I want to hit you with my sword!"

[Lampros]

Originally posted by GRVTSFat Bastard:

You're not considering the upgraded versions of these abilities. Stalwart+ is immunity to ALL negative effects, and it's a necessity if you want your godtier warrior to solo a whole map.

My personal warrior build is Zealous leap, Broadswipe+, Riposte, Long Reach and whatever else I can manage to grab.

Riposte triggers broadswipe, so definitely godtier.

Best transformation for warriors/rangers are Hawkwings, Celestial, Foxtail and spelltouched. You can have all these at the same time btw!

Best pets are Critter and Avenger.

As for weapons... Wood attribute Greatsword. Never needed anything else.

So Stalwart+ makes you immune to fire as well? In that case, it might be worth it. Still, it's two ability points on a defensive tool.

And what advantage does Celestial offer for a Warrior?

[thrythlind]

Melee Transformations:
- Wolftouched
- Crowtouched
- Beartouched
- Elmsoul
- Child of the Hills
- Shadowed

Ranged Transformations
- Celestial
- Flamesoul
- Stormsoul
- Botanical
- Sylvan

A bit of Both
- Mortifical

To date, I've never seen any "Trash" abiltiies.

When you first take an ability they are often Mild in what they do, but they fairly quickly ramp up, especially if you go for the upgrades. As an example, I've recently been playing a Raider or two and been able to hit as many as five targets that were hanging around a larger piece of scenery before then attacking with my main attack.

The Reaction lines (Vigilance, Paladin, Sentinel) are good, but every ability in this game is good.

As to Hunters, taking two actions to toss bundles of Quellingmoss+ out to lay down Poison 6 in one round on 3-6 targets.

Jumpjaws to cover a flank so you can focus on visible targets instead of worrying about/searching new ones.

Throughshot being very reliable AoE

Mystics? Spiritblade to grant bonus attacks, Splinterburst is one of the easiest to get AoEs in thegame. Vigorflow + Openmind creates some absolutely devastating snipers. Calcify and Soulsplitting make for extremely survivable mystics. Sharktraps I've seen just destroy 4-tile enemies that took one step and hit three tiles worth of trap.

Synergy is pretty important in builds. You have to consider what you have and pick Abilities that work well together as much as you can. But even if the rolled abilities don't offer precisely what you're looking for, you end up getting something that is worthwhile.

My suggestion is to stretch yourself, deliberately take abilities you usually avoid and try them out. I've been doing that a lot lately and it's been working very well.

[zgrssd]

Originally posted by Lampros:

Originally posted by GRVTSFat Bastard:

You're not considering the upgraded versions of these abilities. Stalwart+ is immunity to ALL negative effects, and it's a necessity if you want your godtier warrior to solo a whole map.

My personal warrior build is Zealous leap, Broadswipe+, Riposte, Long Reach and whatever else I can manage to grab.

Riposte triggers broadswipe, so definitely godtier.

Best transformation for warriors/rangers are Hawkwings, Celestial, Foxtail and spelltouched. You can have all these at the same time btw!

Best pets are Critter and Avenger.

As for weapons... Wood attribute Greatsword. Never needed anything else.

So Stalwart+ makes you immune to fire as well? In that case, it might be worth it. Still, it's two ability points on a defensive tool.

And what advantage does Celestial offer for a Warrior?

If Stalwart+ Blocks fire, that makes it a mobility tool too.
In these kinds of games, nothing is quite as important as reliability.

In fact I only learned this watching PeteComplete paly XCOM1, but grenades (like Flanking attacks) do have a 100% hith chance for 4 damage. Which - even at a lone target - can be worth way more then potentially dealing 8 damage.