Monarch Under the mountain is awful, seriously.

[Yeungx]

Spoiler ahead

Everything about the game has been wonderful so far. But seriously who wrote the deepking's offer? What were you thinking?

The entire premise of the mission was we are going to parley with the Deep King, possibly peace offer, possibly assassination. And when we got there, we were given neither options. There was no option to attack the deepking, wounding him leading to the escape sequence, we just let him walk away, and then start running. I am a set in stone player, so I got there once, refused his offer, and died on the escape, because i was so baffled by the abrupt story turn, I did not realise i had to escape until it was too late.

So i played the mission again and got there 5 hours later. I thought might have made the wrong choice and a more interesting outcome would be if one person took up the offer (perhaps sacrificing herself to land a fatal blow on the Deep King.) Nope, a big ♥♥♥♥ you, now you get to play the same unsatisfactory escape sequence again, but missing my best fighter. TPK again, wasting another 5 hours of my life.

This is literately Mass Effect 3 ending choices all over again. At the climax of the chapter, you force the player to make a choice that is completely unrelated to central narrative of the game we just played though. Just an awful writing choice. No choice there impacted what I cared about and work towards then ending to achieve which is more peace for my land, and a happiness of my characters.

Also you realise your game design does not really handle escape sequences really well right? If is fundamentally different game play style from you core game loop, so not only are our characters not spec for the task, player are less familiar with game play. Also there was no hint that this mission would be an escape mission, so you don't know to prepare differently or spec differently for it. So the entire thing is just dragging my slow warriors getting hit from all angles and their turn taking 2 mins until i am dead. From a game play perspective I can't really image worst choice you can make.

I played through this campaign twice already, and I am not sure if I can go through it again. I really liked some of my character, and the story they have gone through, and to see them thrown down the drain with no agency really hurt. A trust has been broken between player and DM and is really sucks cause I really liked the game.

[DNLH]

Can't really tell you anything aside of I didn't mind it that much, as expected, it was a trap, it's not the first time that heroes have to flee, it's not the first time even in this campaign that it happens. The choice is quite important and comes up later, I'll leave it at that in case you'd be willing to give the campaign another go after all.

The escape sequences are hectic and require players to prioritize differently, enemies are wary of walking into guarded areas, hunters can take potshots, but the priority is to, well, run. And there's always an option of sacrificing someone by leaving them behind to tie enemies with fighting while faster members flee, heart-wrenching, but adds to the drama of the story.

There's also a *sweet* artifact bow on The Prophet that you can get if you sacrifice a turn or two to take them down first. I'm not really sure if you can get it in a later fight during campaign.

[zgrssd]

Originally posted by Yeungx:

The entire premise of the mission was we are going to parley with the Deep King, possibly peace offer, possibly assassination. And when we got there, we were given neither options.

Assasination was blocked because he had the prophet around.

And why would the Monarch want to talk about giving up their eternal life?
Because that is the only thing that "peace" can mean - giving up his eternal life.

[Coridan]

Idk, I turned down their offer, killed their god-avatar, took his bow and then we wolfcalled to victory.

[Black Captain]

Originally posted by Coridan:

Idk, I turned down their offer, killed their god-avatar, took his bow and then we wolfcalled to victory.

Changed wolf called to victory to silkstep and wind called to victory and you have my experience.

[Worldwalker Games]

Thanks for the feedback. It's valuable to know what feels like a missing option. Also that mission is definitely pretty hard.

[Black Captain]

Originally posted by Worldwalker Games:

Thanks for the feedback. It's valuable to know what feels like a missing option. Also that mission is definitely pretty hard.

I’m sure you have found a number of areas where something new could be added.

I always air on the side of “if you present the player an option, let them play it out.” I think this old nes game gave you 3 option for dealing with the final boss. Something in like: take powers, defeat them, or spare them. The first 2 options resolved in boss fights. The 3rd option… let’s just say that is not the right choice but did make sense.

We won’t always pick the hero route. Sometimes the path we pick is only righteousness in our own eyes.

[Syrris]

That's true in some games/stories, but Wildermyth is implicitly about heroic fairy tales*; it would be a complete tonal break to have the PCs deliberately bring about the end of the Yondering. This is also why your mystics can't just up and decide to join the villain in the Thrixl campaign.

* Or tragic ones, in the case of a Game Over.

[frowningmirror]

I would say it's the weakest campaign too, too many missions where you're escaping from the Deepists. The horn ones would hop in my way and out number me, I wasn't expecting to restart the mission going the wrong path one time. The betrayal also doesn't feel like much is at stake. Also, the final mission was funny, I struggled to make it to the last boss but then when I got there the King and Queen were extremely easy to dispatch.

[Astral Projection]

I just finished this one on Normal and it was long but not too bad. Though I used several legacy characters. Wolfscall is awesome. Also, I reroll all new recruits until they have 5 speed. Its the most important stat imho.

[Speedstersonic]

I'm confused, you make it sound like it's the end of the story, it's only chapter 4 of 5. You do still deal with them at the end? I honestly didn't mind it, but was kinda shocked the betrayer didn't actually turn traitor and become the final boss with the king and queen. That woulda been cool, but i still liked it.

[Yeungx]

Originally posted by DNLH:

Can't really tell you anything aside of I didn't mind it that much, as expected, it was a trap, it's not the first time that heroes have to flee, it's not the first time even in this campaign that it happens. The choice is quite important and comes up later, I'll leave it at that in case you'd be willing to give the campaign another go after all.

The escape sequences are hectic and require players to prioritize differently, enemies are wary of walking into guarded areas, hunters can take potshots, but the priority is to, well, run. And there's always an option of sacrificing someone by leaving them behind to tie enemies with fighting while faster members flee, heart-wrenching, but adds to the drama of the story.

There's also a *sweet* artifact bow on The Prophet that you can get if you sacrifice a turn or two to take them down first. I'm not really sure if you can get it in a later fight during campaign.

It's a trap as expected, which means you have forced your players to walk into a trap. That is the lack of agency I am talking about. And if I knew it was a trap, but I have to walk into it for story reason, then I am no longer in control of my character, I am just along for the ride. This call railroading.

If even though my character did not suspect a trap, but i prepare for a trap anyways cause I read the campaign book, and knew a trap was coming, that is call meta gaming. Railroading and meta-gaming are big no nos in cooperative story telling, and completely break immersion.

The fix is simple. The beginning of that chapter, a comic strip clearly explains our characters motivations. Some people think we should attend that parley cause we might be able to work out an agreement, some character want to go in to cut the head off the snake. So the resolution should allow the character to act towards those goals.

Option one, sue for peace. At least give the player an option to actually parley during the parley. It could be a dead end, but it gives the player enough agency to act toward their goal, but it would be better to have a chance of success based on a charisma check. If successful, we can let the player fight a dual to prove they are worthy of peace, you get to fight the big guy still, but less monsters.

If you fail that check, Give me a choice for a character to make a heroic sacrifice and selflessly lunge at the king, dying in the process, forever remembered as a hero. I lose a character anyways, and my other characters have to escape. They can make a statue to that character in the story between acts. Game play is the same, but narratively it is so much better.

If my characters suspect it is a trap, then give me narrative option to prepare for that trap. Like call for back up. Your engine can already handle 10 allies in a fight, let half the team storm in from the exit as a rescue. You can even make it explicit that characters suspect a trap. the allow the player to be cleaver and for example put a mystic on team 2 with tree call to get the players out. You can even make preparing a second team mess up the sue for peace option cause you did not really trust peace. All of these are fun cause I choose these actions and I deal with consequences.

The mean job of a DM in D&D and as a writer for this game is give your player a chance to be awesome.
Heroic sacrifice? Awesome!
A passionate plea for peace between races changing the heart of an enemy? Awesome! Smart strategy and planing to outsmart an enemy's trap? Awesome!
Betraying your own team and joining the dark side? Not Awesome.
Walking blindly into an trap, and just escaping without being able to accomplish anything meaningful? Not Awesome.

I am not complaining the mission is hard. But I want the reason why the mission is hard to be my choice.

[DragonFang]

Originally posted by Yeungx:

...This call railroading....that is call meta gaming. Railroading and meta-gaming are big no nos in cooperative story telling, and completely break immersion.

This isn't a table top RPG with friends. This isn't cooperative story telling. Even though this game is AMAZING at simulating what a dnd game feels like with all its vignettes and side stories its a video game, with prebuilt campaigns. You are along for the story, as its SCRIPTED(railroaded). The fact you are bring table top gaming arguments into a bad DM situation should be a triumph for the developer don't make any sense in this context.

[アンジェル]

Originally posted by DragonFang:

This isn't a table top RPG with friends. This isn't cooperative story telling. Even though this game is AMAZING at simulating what a dnd game feels like with all its vignettes and side stories its a video game, with prebuilt campaigns. You are along for the story, as its SCRIPTED(railroaded). The fact you are bring table top gaming arguments into a bad DM situation should be a triumph for the developer don't make any sense in this context.

I agree. There is only so much a prescripted story can do and so much more which it cannot do. I wonder if some passionate modder could make a larger more interactive with more choices campaign. Yet that is something you can do, and not something to demand from a small studio which made and delivered a great base for future content for a very fair pricing.

[ianliew]

I wonder if it's possible to send in a suicide squad, let them die and have your other squad avenge them, or just send in one guy who betrays everyone... or is that the last "lose if you fail" battle of the chapter?

I do agree with the OP in that the entire thing felt like a waste of time after the meeting ended, but I just took it like being sent to a negotiation you know will fail, but you still need to go in order to not let the enemy have the moral high ground that you refused to negotiate.

[Syrris]

Another thing to consider about that situation: If you *did* attack the Deep King - whether or not you could actually kill him there; especially if you managed to kill him there - then you would never, ever get a chance to get anywhere near the Deep Queen, effectively ensuring that the story ended with a "...held out for a long as they could before ruin claimed all."

In other words, the option to do something isn't there when it would put you into a fail-state.