Stress and stamina question

[Dule]

Hi,

I'm not sure if stress and stamina are working as it should(as it should be realistic).
It happen many times that stress bar is jumping up and down(between points) from full to empty. Also it happens that on first serve of opponent stress bar is full, he misses it and for second serve stress bar is empty, like 'oh i missed first serve, now i'm not worried at all'.

Also it can happen that during the match stress bar is slowly filling and then for next point it's just empty(doesn't matter if player won or lost that last point).

For stamina it happens that opponent at the start of the match has 3/4 of stamina(i guess due to the efforts of earlier matches in the tournament) and during that first set it drops for some level(sometimes more, sometimes less), but then when first set is done, and second set starts, their stamina bar is full like they've been on holiday. If you rest one day after the match and your stamina is 3/4 at the start of the match, drops during first set, how cant you recover fully during the break between sets? :)

Cheers,
Dule

[ManuTOO]

Hello,

could you send me a Bug Report the next time you notice these events ? (HowTo => https://www.managames.com/Forum/topic5-31732.php )

1 >> on first serve of opponent stress bar is full, he misses it and for second serve stress bar is empty

2 >> during the match stress bar is slowly filling and then for next point it's just empty

3 >> second set starts, their stamina bar is full like they've been on holiday

So I'll look into these oddities... :-)

[Dule]

Hi Manu,

All three happened multiple times. And also all of them together happen in my last match agains Schwartzman in US Open third round. The match is over, i'll send you bug report and hopefully it will contain information :)

I've player TE2013 and TEM2 so i'm familiar with how good you are working with the games and pleased that you're still working on it and improving them. Graphics aside yours are the best tennis games! :)

Cheers,
Dule

[Dule]

Report is sent.

Also i noticed that if both players start with full energy(stamina) usually they finish the match like that or lose very little. I don't think i player 5 set match, but in matches that are finished after 3 or 4 sets both players basically have full energy.

[ManuTOO]

Thanks, I got your Bug Reports !

On the screenshots, Del Potro Energy does indeed start at ~95% and at the end it's full.

I think it means he starts to play cool because you're a much lower-ranked player than him, and then when things get tight, he goes full speed.

I'll check in detail why his Stress goes fully down on his 2nd serves, hopefully today.

For the stamina in a general way, the max energy will start to go down only if the Short Term form goes under the little triangle. I might change that so it slowly goes down to 95% till the Short Term form reaches the triangle, and then it'll go down faster.

And I'm glad to know you enjoy the game !

If you have the time & mood, please leave a positive review on the TE4 Steam Store page, that'd be helpful for the game and encouraging for me ! :-)

[Dule]

ManuTOO님이 먼저 게시:

Thanks, I got your Bug Reports !

On the screenshots, Del Potro Energy does indeed start at ~95% and at the end it's full.

I think it means he starts to play cool because you're a much lower-ranked player than him, and then when things get tight, he goes full speed.

Yea, he was sitting in the sofa drinking beer, winning points and resting :)

ManuTOO님이 먼저 게시:

For the stamina in a general way, the max energy will start to go down only if the Short Term form goes under the little triangle. I might change that so it slowly goes down to 95% till the Short Term form reaches the triangle, and then it'll go down faster.

Something should be changed there, because there's no way that you can play one set and be fully rested, not to talk about playing 3-4 sets(in Del Potro match case 4 sets where first three ended in tie break) and finishing with full energy(both of us).

I remember in TE2013 when i played my first Roland Garros that i lost 20% of energy in first 3 games(longer points but still), and then i realized that stamina is important! :)

ManuTOO님이 먼저 게시:

If you have the time & mood, please leave a positive review on the TE4 Steam Store page, that'd be helpful for the game and encouraging for me ! :-)

Thanks for a reminder, it's done, keep up the good work! :)

[Cannon Fodder]

Dule님이 먼저 게시:

Something should be changed there, because there's no way that you can play one set and be fully rested, not to talk about playing 3-4 sets(in Del Potro match case 4 sets where first three ended in tie break) and finishing with full energy(both of us).

I have been using a "Make them run all over the court" playstyle, watching their breath TANK, but their energy barely moves, and even out of breath people execute perfect shots or sprint across the court for what SHOULD be impossible shots to reach...the stamina/breath/energy, whatever it is is definitely not working how it should...

[ManuTOO]

@Dule,
a little clarification : energy = from ~25% to 100% means you can hit your strike at full speed, with full precision, and run at full speed ; it doesn't mean you're fully rested. Fully rested is when you have 100% Short Form.

In real life, most players still run & strike at full speed after 2, and even 3 or 4 sets. Usually, it's only in the 5th that things noticeably slow down, and even there it's not always the case.

Of course, it happens significantly more often when the player was tired from his previous matches ; in TE, it means he has started with a lower Short Term Form.


@Cannon Fodder & (still Dule :) ),
I did a quick try by playing 2 games on clay (so it's easy to make the points last longer) ; I got to a 12.2 rally length average (RL) and the opponent energy lowered by more than 5%. It means that 2 sets at 6/4 6/4 would make it reach 0% energy. It seems decently realistic at 12 RL is almost twice the average RL on clay. It could drop a bit faster, though, so I may tune that a bit in the future. (it could probably go a bit faster up & down at least)

When the breath bar is depleted, the player runs & accelerates his run ~15% slower ; he hits his acceleration ~15% slower as well ; all his strike precisions are lowered by 50% (ie: his aiming zone size is doubled).

If you see Nadal vs Djokovic 40-strike rallies, you'll notice they still can run fast & hit strong at their end : they are not asthmatic grandpa's but professional sportsmen ; so do all the tennis players in the world ; they do not crumble when pushed hard, they just perform a bit less well... :-)

[ManuTOO]

@Dule,
oops, I had forgotten : I checked your Bug Reports.

The stress display is actually bugged..! >_<

It should change ~10 times less, which will be fixed in the next update.

And for the next gameplay update, I'll prevent any going down on the 2nd serve.

This stress fluctuation is meant to represent the stress when playing against a lower-ranked player. I'll probably stabilize it a bit more as well.

EDIT:

And thanks for your review !

[Dule]

ManuTOO님이 먼저 게시:

This stress fluctuation is meant to represent the stress when playing against a lower-ranked player. I'll probably stabilize it a bit more as well.

Will it be increased in stressful situations for opponent even if you're higher ranked player? Like crucial break or tight fight(especially in tie break or near the end of a set)

ManuTOO님이 먼저 게시:

EDIT:

And thanks for your review !

You're welcome :)

ManuTOO님이 먼저 게시:

In real life, most players still run & strike at full speed after 2, and even 3 or 4 sets. Usually, it's only in the 5th that things noticeably slow down, and even there it's not always the case.

Shouldn't there be small decrease? You can't hit the ball at the start of the match and for example after 1-2 hours playing, there's a small decrease. And hard shots(not sure how their actual name is in the game) should decrease breath. When i played after 2-3 hard shots(full power) in the point you are definitely not at 100% :)

ManuTOO님이 먼저 게시:

Of course, it happens significantly more often when the player was tired from his previous matches ; in TE, it means he has started with a lower Short Term Form.

Will it translate to other tournaments? If you're playing week by week and winning tournaments meaning you play whole week and final is on Sunday, next game in new tournament is Tuesday for example, you can't be at 100% if your energy went down during the first tournament :)

[Cannon Fodder]

ManuTOO님이 먼저 게시:

@Cannon Fodder & (still Dule :) ),
I did a quick try by playing 2 games on clay (so it's easy to make the points last longer) ; I got to a 12.2 rally length average (RL) and the opponent energy lowered by more than 5%. It means that 2 sets at 6/4 6/4 would make it reach 0% energy.

But you get Energy back between games/sets, do you not? And that seems like an unfair test, TRYING to make a rally last longer. That's not the goal in tennis...at least, not mine. But, I don't see a better way to account for it, so i'll concede that point.

ManuTOO님이 먼저 게시:

It seems decently realistic at 12 RL is almost twice the average RL on clay. It could drop a bit faster, though, so I may tune that a bit in the future. (it could probably go a bit faster up & down at least)

Help me out here, what is "RL"?

ManuTOO님이 먼저 게시:

When the breath bar is depleted, the player runs & accelerates his run ~15% slower ; he hits his acceleration ~15% slower as well ; all his strike precisions are lowered by 50% (ie: his aiming zone size is doubled).

Ok, i'll assume that it's a confirmation bias and I only see out of breath tired players making 1 great shot out of 10, and am inclined to remember that... I'll be more observant. But I will say...it sure hasn't felt like it.

ManuTOO님이 먼저 게시:

If you see Nadal vs Djokovic 40-strike rallies, you'll notice they still can run fast & hit strong at their end : they are not asthmatic grandpa's but professional sportsmen ; so do all the tennis players in the world ; they do not crumble when pushed hard, they just perform a bit less well... :-)

That is true. But is that same across the entirety of the spectrum? I play hockey as well, and I can tell you right now that the best player in the NHL, and the best player in the AHL that gets called up are still both "professionals" but they are on completely different tiers when it comes to skill...
Wait, is this what the "Focus" skill is for? The players ability to shoot accurately when winded...?

By the way in my review, this is what I meant by "tool tips" explaining verbiage in the game... Not things like a dropshot or topspin, but what the skills apply directly to, or what the colors of the tournaments mean...you know, things people shouldn't have to log onto steam forums to ask you directly for.

[ManuTOO]

@Dule,
1) Yes, there's stress for important points & situations, which is independent of the stress of playing against a lowly ranked player.

2) Personally, I watched likely at least a thousand tennis matches and I didn't notice any pattern in the strike & run quality after 2 or 3 sets, except if they are really extremely intensive. Even in the 5th, it's not always clear that the players are tired.
If you find some analysis about that with good statistics, I'll gladly read it..! :-)

3) Accelerations (or hard shots) are significantly tiring : if you have 100% Stamina and a Powerbaseliner, they already take a bit less than 5% of Breath each ; with 0% Stamina and a player style less acceleration friendly, they can take as much as a bit more than 10%.

4) Yes, the Short Term Form, as well as the Long Term Form, carry over tournaments, so chaining tournaments in TE4 will be harder than in TE2013.


@Cannon Fodder,
1) Yes, the energy goes up a bit between points and a bit more up between games & sets.
As the players should be still in good energy after 2 not-so-intensive sets, it was better (and much faster :P ) to test with only 2 intense games to get an idea of where we stand.
I think the main tuning to do here is to see if the intensity of a few points must be more significantly felt on the Energy, or if it needs to take a couple of intense games.

2) RL = Rally Length average

3) You'll likely feel more the out-of-breath effects when you'll play at a high level, but you'll still see decent attacks regularly as well (like in real-life), so it's never a win-them-all strategy. :-)

4) There are only ~1000 professional world tennis players, so the selection process is implacable : if you get noticeably tired as soon as the 2nd set, you have no chance to make it on the Pro Tour, and you'll stay a good national player at best.

I don't know much about hockey, but also tennis isn't horribly tiring : players don't get to the point they can't run anymore or can't strike anymore (or close of it). However, I'm sure you can find a lot of good national players that would be totally destroyed after a couple of sets against Nadal on clay, but there it's the most intensive tests possible, even for Pro players it's very hard (eg: 4th set of Nadal - Schwartzman at last French Open = 6/0 for Nadal ; the guy was cooked !)... :-)

5) All the skills are explained there : https://www.managames.com/tennismanager/doc/TeManager-Tennis_Game.html#skills

6) For the tournament colors, it's relatively easy to guess after a little while, plus it doesn't matter much (there's a warning when you pick a too hard tournament), so I'd rather not clog the documentation will little things like this : I think it's already big enough and daunting as it is now... :-) (if 18 more people ask this question, I'll add it to the doc though )

[Cannon Fodder]

ManuTOO님이 먼저 게시:

5) All the skills are explained there : https://www.managames.com/tennismanager/doc/TeManager-Tennis_Game.html#skills

6) For the tournament colors, it's relatively easy to guess after a little while, plus it doesn't matter much (there's a warning when you pick a too hard tournament), so I'd rather not clog the documentation will little things like this : I think it's already big enough and daunting as it is now... :-) (if 18 more people ask this question, I'll add it to the doc though )

To point 5, herein lies the BIGGEST problem. That document is for a completely different game. So now, you have 4 DIFFERENT resources that a player must actively seek out to learn what they need to fully understand the game. Two of them, are literally not even under the same name of the game (Tennis Elbow Manager 2, and Tennis Elbow 2013), and the other 2 are from you directly either through steam or the game forums.
Please, don't take offense when I say this, but that is not good game design... I get that it's a lot of work. I would have quit LONG before I achieved what you have accomplished here, but throwing your hands up and saying "it's too much work to put it in the game" when you've made an effort to make online documentation is such an odd cop-out.
Now maybe you have plans to expand upon it with tutorials, that's cool. But even something as simple as the help section when you hit escape. Or literally a still image of a screen shot of the game that has leaders that point to elements in the game. Hell, i'd be more than happy to make one up and give you a concrete example if you'd like? But this "Ask me, or look it up" mentality is unsustainable.

6: One should not have to assume or guess. And no offense but you blew past the "Not clog the documentation" line a while ago since vital game info is contained in a Tennis Elbow Manger 2, AND Tennis Elbow 2013 document (of which, neither are actually this game).

The point of this whole "there should be more information in game" is because, frankly, the intersection of "People who play tennis, and play video games" is small enough as it is. I feel like someone who doesn't often play games, or someone who has never played tennis but wants to pick up a tennis game should be offered the information in a friendly and easier to understand way that isn't a book.

The more I have played, I have enjoyed the mechanics of rallies, but found that I never was introduced, or had the chance to learn other mechanics...smashes, net play, serving. I think light tutorial, or even introductory youtube video could help that.

[ManuTOO]

The game is currently in construction, thus the Early Access state.

Of course, for the v1.0, it'll have a single doc for TE4 with everything that is needed in it.

It's long & complicated to maintain a documentation, so I'd rather not lose some of the little time I have on it, and work on the game instead.

The main reason to not put the documentation in the game is to avoid lowering the chance to get translations into other languages : it's already a long process that is done for free by TE users. So I never ask them to translate the documentation.

Lastly, I checked and the recent tennis games don't have any manuals. Top Spin 4 has a decent manual, but there is less information in it than in TE doc (eg: no skill effect explanation).

All these games have millions of $ budgets. I'm alone there. Try to talk to any of these game devs. And here I am, ready to explain anything you need... ;-)

So you bought a small Indie game on Early Access ; please try to understand it means it's not complete & done, and despite that, the game is more than half-decent and you get attentive support... :-)

PS: yes, I'd like to add a tutorial to the game.

[ManuTOO]

@Dule,
I just updated the game and made the Energy lowers to ~90% when the Short Term form lowers to its threshold.

Please let me know if it's better or not.

[Dule]

ManuTOO님이 먼저 게시:

@Dule,
I just updated the game and made the Energy lowers to ~90% when the Short Term form lowers to its threshold.

Please let me know if it's better or not.

Thanks Manu,

I haven't played for couple of days cause i have a lot of work to do, but i hope soon i'll find some spare time to continue my career :)