Balancing, real walls and Selling stuff

[Crowley]

So first, one thing that, to me, needs a bit of balance, is when you "sell" one of your old weapon for getting weapon parts. You get a really low amount of parts, but the worst is even when you do it with a level 3 weapon, you only get around 25-30 parts, when it costed 90 for getting it level 3, it's merely one tier of the price.

Second point, giving us the possibility to sell stuff would be a very good addition to the game. Like selling grenades, low level armors that we'll never use anymore once we got far better, stuff like that. It just fill the inventory for nothing, have no use, and selling them could be useful for buying other things at the shop. (Like, seriously, I have at least more than 10 molotovs, but only 2 medikit, if I could sell some of those explosives I could buy more healing stuff in return)

Last thing, this would be good to have real walls in the game. By this I mean that I spend my time having enemies shooting at me through walls, cars, or other massive objects with no holes in them. We can't do this, cause when we try, the game say "not in sight range", but enemies can, it's cheaty, and also not realistic, and on top of that it makes even harder to know what's a real cover and what's something that looks like a cover but who's not gonna protect you because enemies can wall-hack you. And speaking of line of sight, please, balance it, if we can't target an enemy because we can't see it, the same should apply to it. But here, enemies hide behind a car or anything else, you can see half of their body sticking out of it, but can't shoot him, tho next enemy turn, this one shoot you in the head. The line of sights definitely need some balancing and fixing because, to me, they looks bugged at this point, in a lot of ways.

[nem]

Just want to say that LoS is kinda wonky. Sometimes when you dont have LoS with the boomstick, switching to another weapon like the ancient gun will suddenly give you the option to shoot, with low accuracy.

Not sure i agree on the other points, giving us the ability to sell armors and stuff would be cool, but then the game would need a complete rebalance to prevent players from getting tier 3 weapons too early. The same applies to selling guns.

One could argue that this prevents experimenting with guns, but the only thing that changes with level ups is the +1 dmg and +1 crit. You can try out the different weapons as you get them to get a feel for what you want to run. Fortunately (?) there arent that many and you wont waste parts upgrading something you wont use, unless you screw up.. :D

[Crowley]

You can't get tier 3 weapons before reaching a specific level that unlock them in the shop, so it won't unbalance things. The sniper for example, the GJR-666, I looted one in a zone long before it was available in the shop, so selling back stuff would only allow to buy stuff you need in return of stuff you don't need at all or anymore. It's the basic of trading in... All games? You get beginning stuff, you loot medium stuff, you unlock it in the shop, sell the beginning stuff for more medium stuff/accessories/consumables, and repeat with the late game stuff.

Tho about what you said about your line of sight thing, isn't what happens to you related to range more than LoS? If it don't work with one weapon but do with the other, it's maybe because the other have a greater range and so can touch were the other couldn't cause too far for it. For my own, what I meant about the LoS is that enemies can shoot you from spots, angles or positions they shouldn't be able to. Like through a wall, through the floor/ceiling, or even when one of your character is hidden (with the small mask icon), it's supposed to mean the character isn't visible anymore so they couldn't aim it. Same apply to smoke screen, Tanks can charge you even when you're in the smoke, which shouldn't happen as you're supposed to be untargetable, and Butcher can attack you at melee range in the smoke but you can't shoot them back, even if they are just in front of you and just butchered your face a second ago. Either smoke screen block everything or it block specific things, but not random stuff to whatever please the game or advantage the enemies.

Also, one last thing, and additionnal feedback. I actually don't see the point of limiting team to three characters only when there's just five characters in the game. I mean, in a game like Xcom, it's logical to have a size max for team because you got plenty of soldiers so you can't pick all of them. But here, there's five chars, the groups of enemies only grow in size, HP, armor and damages the further you go, it wouldn't break the game to slowly grow the size of your group, it would actually help to keep things balanced (and logical in lore term, they are supposed to work as a team and to do their best to survive, so why restricting themselves by keeping two of them on the backside?). To me it don't really feel like "you have to pick the most adapted for each fights" as none of them really have abilities that make them "special for X case". Just my opinion here, but to me the game would be more interesting in term of gameplay, tactics, variety and fight balance if the team was slowly growing in number each time a new character join it. Could be something to unlock at the bar for example, a perk to buy.

[Dumle]

I have also experienced the line of sight behaving really odd. I can get annoying, especially when its an enemy holding your guy capture and the line of sight issue basically forces you to run up to him to even be able to shoot at him.

[vindicator]

Game lies about LOS most of the time in corners - you see 100% and after moving in corner it is either 25% or zero. With five characters game would be too easy - you got double shot skills exactly to compensate for small squad size.

[Crowley]

That's why I said "making it a perk to buy". Those who don't want it cause the game would be "too easy" (Never saw what was wrong in that, the goal of a game is to be fun, not to make you rage until you bleed from the eyes) will just have to don't buy it and get other perks, and those who prefer playing with full team on could get the perks. Once again I compare with Xcom, but in it, it is a choice to grow the size of your team or not, those who want challenge run through the game without growing it, and those who prefer playing it for fun and/or with more strategy and tactic present choose to grow it. Larger squad don't forcibly mean easier, it also imply more tactic, as you have more characters to manage, position, use properly, protect, etc.

[Xuhybrid]

Originally posted by ;1745605598715672745:

Just want to say that LoS is kinda wonky. Sometimes when you dont have LoS with the boomstick, switching to another weapon like the ancient gun will suddenly give you the option to shoot, with low accuracy.

Are you two sure about LOS? If you're switching to another weapon, then the problem is range. Also the enemy could just be in cover.

Originally posted by Crowley:

Last thing, this would be good to have real walls in the game. By this I mean that I spend my time having enemies shooting at me through walls, cars, or other massive objects with no holes in them. We can't do this, cause when we try, the game say "not in sight range", but enemies can, it's cheaty, and also not realistic, and on top of that it makes even harder to know what's a real cover and what's something that looks like a cover but who's not gonna protect you because enemies can wall-hack you. And speaking of line of sight, please, balance it, if we can't target an enemy because we can't see it, the same should apply to it. But here, enemies hide behind a car or anything else, you can see half of their body sticking out of it, but can't shoot him, tho next enemy turn, this one shoot you in the head. The line of sights definitely need some balancing and fixing because, to me, they looks bugged at this point, in a lot of ways.

That's what cover is for. High and low cover is shown to you, maybe use your eyes.
High covers gives them -75% accuracy and any kind of distance means 0% chance.

[Crowley]

Maybe use your own advice and use your eyes aswell? I'm aware about high and low covers, thanks, what I mention is enemies shootings through them. Me on one side of the wall, enemy on the other side, the wall between us, no hole in the wall, it is a full wall in perfect shape and state that don't allow me to shoot at the enemy BUT the enemy can shoot through it. It is not a question of LoS here, it is wall-hack.

Also, I said before that his problem was probably a matter of range, so no "you two", I'm not included cause I told him the same thing.

But I finished the game and so I can say it, enemies CAN shoots through walls, floors and ceiling, no matter if there is holes in them or not, they can shoot through them, but you can't because you have no LoS. Same when you target an enemy that is at a corner of an object while you are just next to it, on the other corner of the same object, sometimes you have 100% aim, sometimes 75%, sometimes only 25% and even some times it say "no line of sight". And no, here too it is not a matter of range and weapon because I did tests and had those different results using the same weapon, with the same mods on, no change on it, but several changes on the aim %. Conclusion = LoS need to be adjusted and rebalanced.

[Anelyn]

It's all interconnected. Best and hardest hitters (excluding mini-boss / boss type of mobs) are Hunters, because they have either rambinos early-mid game, or sniper rifles. They also have 30% weapon range sights.

If a hunter is on high ground, he can hit you in hard cover it's 50% chance. If you are in low cover they have 75% chance to hit.

When enemies have no chance to shoot you, they will either move trying to flank / close in or will overwatch.

Also high ground helps with longer distance hits. A weapon that would have only 75% chance to hit due to distance on a flanked target, would become 100% hit chance. A weapon with only 50% chance to hit on a flanked target, would be at 75% with high ground, and 100% if the target it lit up (flare / camp fire / molotov).

So pretty much if you are on high ground and want to shoot a target behind hard cover with a weapon that is in range, and the target it lit up, you will have 75% chance to hit it, because you would be at 25% to hit it normally, then you add +25% hit from high ground and +25% hit from lit up which equals with 75%.

[Crowley]

Originally posted by Xuhybrid:

Are you two sure about LOS? If you're switching to another weapon, then the problem is range. Also the enemy could just be in cover.

Originally posted by Anelyn:

It's all interconnected. Best and hardest hitters (excluding mini-boss / boss type of mobs) are Hunters, because they have either rambinos early-mid game, or sniper rifles. They also have 30% weapon range sights.

If a hunter is on high ground, he can hit you in hard cover it's 50% chance. If you are in low cover they have 75% chance to hit.

When enemies have no chance to shoot you, they will either move trying to flank / close in or will overwatch.

Also high ground helps with longer distance hits. A weapon that would have only 75% chance to hit due to distance on a flanked target, would become 100% hit chance. A weapon with only 50% chance to hit on a flanked target, would be at 75% with high ground, and 100% if the target it lit up (flare / camp fire / molotov).

So pretty much if you are on high ground and want to shoot a target behind hard cover with a weapon that is in range, and the target it lit up, you will have 75% chance to hit it, because you would be at 25% to hit it normally, then you add +25% hit from high ground and +25% hit from lit up which equals with 75%.

Please both of you read messages better before answering. I'm NOT talking about range, I'm talking about shoot passing through physical obstacles like if they don't existed.

[Xuhybrid]

Originally posted by Crowley:

Maybe use your own advice and use your eyes aswell? I'm aware about high and low covers, thanks, what I mention is enemies shootings through them. Me on one side of the wall, enemy on the other side, the wall between us, no hole in the wall, it is a full wall in perfect shape and state that don't allow me to shoot at the enemy BUT the enemy can shoot through it. It is not a question of LoS here, it is wall-hack.

Also, I said before that his problem was probably a matter of range, so no "you two", I'm not included cause I told him the same thing.

But I finished the game and so I can say it, enemies CAN shoots through walls, floors and ceiling, no matter if there is holes in them or not, they can shoot through them, but you can't because you have no LoS. Same when you target an enemy that is at a corner of an object while you are just next to it, on the other corner of the same object, sometimes you have 100% aim, sometimes 75%, sometimes only 25% and even some times it say "no line of sight". And no, here too it is not a matter of range and weapon because I did tests and had those different results using the same weapon, with the same mods on, no change on it, but several changes on the aim %. Conclusion = LoS need to be adjusted and rebalanced.

I never read your reply to him, only your first post and the first reply.

What you were describing seemed very much like you not understanding cover, not literally shooting through things. Though being in cover would certainly help regardless. I can't say i've ever had anything shoot me from out of LOS, most things die during ambush, hog rush or mind control so i'll give you that. But with that said, every predicted chance to hit has been accurate to what i got when i moved there, including predicted LOS.

[Kenlek]

Originally posted by Xuhybrid:

Originally posted by Crowley:

Maybe use your own advice and use your eyes aswell? I'm aware about high and low covers, thanks, what I mention is enemies shootings through them. Me on one side of the wall, enemy on the other side, the wall between us, no hole in the wall, it is a full wall in perfect shape and state that don't allow me to shoot at the enemy BUT the enemy can shoot through it. It is not a question of LoS here, it is wall-hack.

Also, I said before that his problem was probably a matter of range, so no "you two", I'm not included cause I told him the same thing.

But I finished the game and so I can say it, enemies CAN shoots through walls, floors and ceiling, no matter if there is holes in them or not, they can shoot through them, but you can't because you have no LoS. Same when you target an enemy that is at a corner of an object while you are just next to it, on the other corner of the same object, sometimes you have 100% aim, sometimes 75%, sometimes only 25% and even some times it say "no line of sight". And no, here too it is not a matter of range and weapon because I did tests and had those different results using the same weapon, with the same mods on, no change on it, but several changes on the aim %. Conclusion = LoS need to be adjusted and rebalanced.

I never read your reply to him, only your first post and the first reply.

What you were describing seemed very much like you not understanding cover, not literally shooting through things. Though being in cover would certainly help regardless. I can't say i've ever had anything shoot me from out of LOS, most things die during ambush, hog rush or mind control so i'll give you that. But with that said, every predicted chance to hit has been accurate to what i got when i moved there, including predicted LOS.

I know I play this a bit late. Have loads of other games to finish, and waited with this. Finnaly picked it up and playing it now. And having fun with most, but this LOS is BS! The enemy can def. shoot you through walls. It even show up at full shield and all graphics in the game block your view but not enemies. I can even stand behind solid wall - no sight at all and be shoot. Very disspaointing to see such a huge overlooked bug still be in the game.

[dragonofdeath]

I just finished the DLC Seed of Evil.

The story was good, not as good as the one from the main game, but still good. The gameplay was as expected, mostly solid. The new mobs, where a surprise, at least what they are capable of!
But they where also some things, that either would have been nice to have. That I expected more from the DLC, and one thing, that needs to get fixed, because it made me almost ragequit.

Even for the fact, I never had problems with the amount of scraps. I also would have loved, to be able, to sell stuff. Just to get rid of the amounts of smoke grenades and chemical flares. Since I had always to scroll trough a ton of it, to get to the normal grenades, emps and molotovs.

I was also somewhat sad, to just see new hats, but no new armour. And the new weapons, jeah, mostly pistols, of which I only found one usefull. The silenced Rambino, jeah, nice for players who go for the stealth way. But I really hoped for some higher damage ones. But it's still manageable, with the 2 Mimir snipers, the Mimir shotgun and the Mimir rifle.

But what made me almost Ragequit, was this LoS problem. I had it Multiple times, where my guys where sitting behind Hardcover and the enemy where sitting behind hardcover. They shot me over and over, and did hit, almost 90% of the time. Meanwhile, my guys could not shot back, because they had NO LoS! And the worst part is, if you took a look, a lot of the enemys body was visible. Still, no LoS. Meanwhile, a lot of enemys did shot trough hardcover like walls (sometimes even multiple walls), cars, trees etc.
Then there was the thing, where I suspect, that NPCs get a better rating of cover or a higher chance to hit. Why I think it is like that?
I also had it multiple times, that I had to shot an NPC, that was behind half cover, 1 floor above me. With the Mimir Sniper (High Precision Weapon), the Highest chance to hit, was maybe 50%, mostly 25%, so, a lot of shots missed.
Meanwhile, in opposite situations, in which I was above them, in half cover, they where below me. Even the new basic NPCs with the pistol, did shot me from below, sometimes in sniper rifle distance, it felt like over half the map, and I would say, 90% of the time, they did hit.
Other example, my guys, above the enemy, hard cover, enemy below me, in a half cover window. Enemy did shot me trough the wall, I could not shot back, because no LoS.
For what do we get weapons, that can destroy cover, if we can not shot at the cover. If we would be able to target and shot cover (with the weapons that are able to destroy cover), that would at least balance out this LoS Bug or whatever it is.