Denuvo, explain GOG and Witcher 3 then...

[Dradiin]

So one of the devs. stated that Denuvo is implemented because of piracy concerns. If that's the though process here, please someone explain to me how the Witcher 3 and any other game that is sold on GOG does so well ? DRM free games.

Also they have released the game on Steam, from what i understand Steam is its own form of DRM.

Funcom.... go back to the fiasco of Anarchy Online and its release, or Age of Conan, remember those terrible mistakes you made, remember how you changed course and ended up fixing and making amazing games from both of those IP's. Listen to your consumers here, remove Denuvo sooner not later, garner the respect this game deserves. Otherwise you will have yet another title that does terrible in sales because of a lack of forethought.

Conan Exiles was cracked for quite sometime, Denuvo does nothing for you but ruin your reputation.

[HiRed_ThuG]

Originally posted by fabio.capela:

Denuvo is back to being quickly cracked

For now.

[كريس]

Evidently not that quickly, in the case of this game.

[fabio.capela]

Originally posted by chris:

Evidently not that quickly, in the case of this game.

Niche game from a not well known publisher. This isn't the kind of game that benefits from strong DRM. Thus, not a game I would say "could truly benefit from Denuvo".

There's some research out there showing that the net effect of piracy on the overall market is mostly neutral; it neither increases nor decreases sales. The catch, though, is that piracy tends to reduce the sales of blockbuster titles — and particularly the not-so-good ones — and shift them towards smaller, niche titles. In other words, it reduces the influence of raw fame and the marketing budget on sales.

It's not just piracy that does this, BTW. This happens every time the marginal cost to experience less known content is near zero. The situation with stand-up comedy on Netflix is an example, with the genre performing far better in the streaming service than it ever performed when it came to DVD/Blu-Ray sales.

[HiRed_ThuG]

Originally posted by fabio.capela:

Originally posted by chris:

Evidently not that quickly, in the case of this game.

Niche game from a not well known publisher. This isn't the kind of game that benefits from strong DRM. Thus, not a game I would say "could truly benefit from Denuvo".

I would say it's the opposite. It's the smaller developers and publishers that suffer more from piracy especially if they have released on the PC platform exclusively.

The larger ones at least have the sales on consoles to recuperate costs and multiple other projects or money streams and a good amount of extra money in the bank.

Plus the games from these smaller studios are usually much cheaper so even the poorer pirates can buy them, if they aren't prepered to wait for the crack.

[fabio.capela]

Originally posted by HiRed_ThuG:

The larger ones at least have the sales on consoles to recuperate costs and multiple other projects or money streams and a good amount of extra money in the bank.

Consoles like the Switch, you mean, where pirate copies of games are regularly leaked a week before the game's release? Heck, the new Smash Bros, widely acknowledged as the highlight of the year for the Switch, saw a few smaller leaks nearly a month before release and full blown distribution of pirate copies two weeks before release. I personally known people who have been playing it for those two weeks.

BTW, it's easier than ever to release games on consoles. Again talking about the Switch, it already has over a thousand games, of which only a small minority are from larger publishers or devs; most of those games are instead from small indie studios.

Also, cash reserves and other concurrent projects only help in avoiding bankruptcy due to a single project going bad; they don't help in making individual games successful.

Originally posted by HiRed_ThuG:

Plus the games from these smaller studios are usually much cheaper so even the poorer pirates can buy them if they aren't prepered to wait for the crack.

Which also means if someone tries the pirate version and likes the game, that player is more likely to purchase the game afterward. Assuming the game is actually good, of course.

This, BTW, is the mechanism that was identified as making sales of smaller, less known games better when piracy happens. Getting to play the game before you pay for it means players are less likely to pay for bad games and more likely to pay for good ones, meaning that bad games propped by a large marketing budget suffer and good but mostly unknown games get a boost.

[Monkee]

@fabio.capela

I don't disagree with you that pirating may actually benefit sales if someone who otherwise wouldn't buy the game decides to purchase it after they enjoy it. But on the same token, there are surely plent of people who pirate a game and never purchase it, which is a potentially lost sale for the developer (if Denuvo or other DRM did it's intended purpose).

I think the majority of the argument in this thread was actually whether DRM should be implemented if it's not benefiting the customer, which is the heat of the debate. The strongest argument against DRM that I've seen here is that the servers may go down one day based on previous business experiences with the prior Denuvo products and the SecuROM company that came before....fair argument but pure speculation in reality.

I would also agree that if you don't have a stable internet, have a very old or slow computer, and have any thoughts that your hardware may not be optimal for the game, that you may not want to risk Denuvo imbeded games.

With all of that said, a lot of people are coming on here and not even giving the game (which actually got amazing ratings and is enjoyable) a fair shot. The people who argue against DRM are still on here arguing their points knowing that the game will never be devoid of Denuvo. So at this point they are just trolling. Their efforts will be best be heard elsewhere for games not yet released or with companies that are willing to drop Denuvo when the game is pirated.

Would you agree with all of this?

[The_Squarecrow]

Originally posted by Dradiin:

Originally posted by Red Duke:

GOG sales for most games still account for a fraction of Steam game sales. Most Witcher 3 keys were GOG redeemable rather than Steam redeemable. Not all devs have the budget and size to make a Witcher 3 like game. If its that easy then every indie developer would be making their own 'Witcher 3' with similar sales by your logic.

Umm, CD Project Red is not a AAA developer, they are just a damn good one. Curious, why do you want Denuvo in any game ? Why do you prefer DRM enabled games ? What benefit do you gain by having a program checking to see if you are online randomly, and effectively runing any type of offline gaming ? Seriously please explain why this, as a consumer, is a good thing.

Cuphead is DRM free and it sold like hotcakes, there yah go for an Indie that made it big, Sold on GOG. Just because Steam garners the majority of online sales does not diminish the fact the Denuvo is run by a corrupt company, and is very very anti-consumer. Also, Steam has its own DRM so why does Funcom feel the need to add yet another layer of DRM to the game ?

CD Projekt had incredibly substantial grants from Poland. And yes, they are an AAA dev because of this, meaning that they have a lot of funds to pay their employees over a long time. Witcher 3 also aimed at the mass market, at the common denominator. It was released on PC, PS4 and Xbone with great graphics, boobs and swords. It was way easier for analysts to predict its commercial success than Mutant. This clearly isn't the case for this game, it's a niche video game adaptation of a super obscure tabletop game.

Compare apples to apples, man.

[Wyrtt]

Originally posted by Red Duke:

The OP was titled "Explain GOG and Witcher 3 then". I debunked that with the recent example of Thronebreaker from the same dev (who owns GOG) and an article stating even CD Project Red admitted sales were below expectations before finally switching from a GOG only release to a Steam release. There's no purpose for me to be here again to argue every shifted goalpost and pulled straw.

How exactly you did that?
Thronebreaker sold poorly because its half assed puzzle game under mask of single player gwent with almost all loot being new cards for online gwent,
Its not a real game on its own, Now try to follow me here and put 1+1:
1. Game would be only interesting for active gwent players and only for fraction of them. Its a niche genre that cant be as popular as AAAAAAAA grachonium action game with naked girlz and gore,
2. Game was sold on gog only with very poor marketing campaign. Gog has smaller consumer base. Thats would be as bad as selling your game only on discord or psp vita.
EVen I use gog as secondary store for games I want to play on the go.

Expecting high sales after all considered would be as stupid as EA expectations for niche Dead space 2-3. They made a bet on wicher populatiry while trying to sell low quality puzzle game with no witcher in it, They failed.

Now try to explain to me how DRM affects this in any shape or form?

[Monkee]

Originally posted by A_Rude_Gesture:

Originally posted by Monkee:

Talk about calling the kettle black, huh...ive made my argument against plenty of people so far including the WB article and the tekken 7 article that was quickly shot down.

I could argue that you don't listen to me just as I don't listen to you. No side has won the argument which is why we are all still here.

I honestly don't need your respect...

You done yet?

Yes but your arguments consists solely of hypothetical examples and your subjective opinion, which is of no worth whatsoever. Feel free to pound your chest and call yourself a winner all you like, but you have disproved exactly 0% of the critique we've leveled at Denuvo.

Dude, you've shown no good evidence about the current status of Denuvo or DRM. Your opinion that the Denuvo servers may go down "one day" is literally speculation. The stock market may crash like it did in 1929 one day, so let's shut down the entire market now because it's pointless.

Your articles on WB and Tekken 7 were addressed multiple times in this thread and the issues were resolved shortly after their identification.

The only argument you have is that something may happen one day because of what happened in the past - great argument with no proof.

Thus, your subjective opinion is equally as useless as you claim mine to be.

PS, I bought the game before the 21:9 patch was implemented, so you can stop using that excuse against me too now.

[HiRed_ThuG]

Originally posted by fabio.capela:

Consoles like the Switch, you mean, where pirate copies of games are regularly leaked a week before the game's release? Heck, the new Smash Bros, widely acknowledged as the highlight of the year for the Switch, saw a few smaller leaks nearly a month before release and full blown distribution of pirate copies two weeks before release. I personally known people who have been playing it for those two weeks.

BTW, it's easier than ever to release games on consoles. Again talking about the Switch, it already has over a thousand games, of which only a small minority are from larger publishers or devs; most of those games are instead from small indie studios.

Also, cash reserves and other concurrent projects only help in avoiding bankruptcy due to a single project going bad; they don't help in making individual games successful.

Bit of a strawman there, talking about the Switch like it's the only console. I'm sure that you are aware that there's also PlayStation 4 and XBOX One. I'm fully aware that the PS4 has been broken but piracy still isn't large there.

Originally posted by fabio.capela:

Which also means if someone tries the pirate version and likes the game, that player is more likely to purchase the game afterward. Assuming the game is actually good, of course.

Or they could like the game and not purchase it because they have already completed it and have no reason to play it again. What's a more likely scenario?

Originally posted by fabio.capela:

This, BTW, is the mechanism that was identified as making sales of smaller, less known games better when piracy happens. Getting to play the game before you pay for it means players are less likely to pay for bad games and more likely to pay for good ones, meaning that bad games propped by a large marketing budget suffer and good but mostly unknown games get a boost.

Steam allows you to refund a game after 2 hours of play, there's reviews, videos, forum posts twitch streams. There's literally no excuse for piracy - not like there ever was mind you. And publishers and developers should be able to prevent people stealing their games if they want. Piracy is currently forced on to them without giving them a choice in the matter.

[Wyrtt]

DO you know why ps4 piracy isnt a big thing?
Family sharing, You can share one game up to 3 accounts, That makes any 60$ game a 20$ game which becomes even less after sale. Its already like piracy right from the get go,

People made a business out of that. They sell accounts for allowing you to download game once for 10-20$ even for new games.
Also every console was broken, Talking like ps4 and xbox one are the only one consoles in this generation is kinda stupid,

Steam forbids you to use 2 hour refund as a demo. Strange that you dont know that considering your love for laws and rules.
Also steam refunds are WORSE than piracy, You steal money from devs as they have to pay for all transactions. Thats why devs offer free keys instead of refunding during hacker attacks or stolen credit cards. Massive refunds will make them move below 0 summ in the end,

[HiRed_ThuG]

Originally posted by Wyrtt:

DO you know why ps4 piracy isnt a big thing?
Family sharing, You can share one game up to 3 accounts, That makes any 60$ game a 20$ game which becomes even less after sale. Its already like piracy right from the get go,

People made a business out of that. They sell accounts for allowing you to download game once for 10-20$ even for new games.
Also every console was broken, Talking like ps4 and xbox one are the only one consoles in this generation is kinda stupid,

Steam forbids you to use 2 hour refund as a demo. Strange that you dont know that considering your love for laws and rules.
Also steam refunds are WORSE than piracy, You steal money from devs as they have to pay for all transactions. Thats why devs offer free keys instead of refunding during hacker attacks or stolen credit cards. Massive refunds will make them move below 0 summ in the end,

The 2 hour before refund is there as a demo. Not sure what you are on about. Steam are just against the abuse of the refund system.

https://www.pcgamer.com/uk/new-steam-refund-policy-lets-you-get-your-thatmoney-back-for-any-reason/

Not sure what you are on about with regards to PS4 either but if that does exist, I doubt that it's an issue that's going to cause much of a problem.

Steam refunds worse than piracy?!

[JB™]

Quick question to the marked poster.

How long has Denuvo been going, and how many games do you have on PC that you cannot play any more because of it? How many games out at this time do you think people will be playing 10+ years from now?

[76561198862441491]

As we don't allow discussion of piracy on the Steam forums, we'll need to lock this up. However, I'd like to say thanks for keeping the discussion civil and constructive! Take care, and have a great weekend.