To Everyone who is Complaining about the lack of FMV

[Nezu]

I see a lot of people here complaining about Firmament not using FMV (Full-motion video).
These people need to understand that there is a reason why classic FMV has more or less died out in video games these days.
The reason is that the technology has a lot of limitations.
One of the main limitations is, that FMV's can only be viewed from the perspective that the video was shot at.
This makes it very difficult to implement FMV's in a 3D environment in a natural and convincing way.


There are two possible solutions:
Either rely on Stereo-VR live action (More or less the classical FMV Technology), as Cyan did in their game Obduction and be limited to flat 2D surfaces like holographic billboards, screens, and characters enclosed behind glass, or use new technologies like "volumetric video."
The problem with Stereo-VR live action is that it often feels very unnatural in a 3D environment because developers have to restrict the player's angle of view of the scene.
It also requires a lot of resources (equipment, actors, stages, props, costumes, etc.), which combined with the results just makes it too unappealing.
Cyan noticed this problem after they finished their work on Obduction, so they shifted their resources in a different direction while working on Firmament.


Volumetric Video, requires even more resources because of the extensive hardware rig, that is required.
The rendering time also makes it very unattractive.
1 frame = 29 CPU hours
That's beyond what small indie studios can handle.
And the Studio would also need to figure out, how to make it work with their game engine.


In my opinion, Cyan chose a very good middle ground with the focus on CGI characters and we really should appreciate all the hard work they put into this game.|




Links & Sources:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szuN9WA4dJM


https://augmentedperception.github.io/deepviewvideo/


Quote from Eric A Anderson (Creative Director@CyanWorlds) from a QA on the Cyan Discord:

Originally posted by author:

Yes, exactly... it's easy to say "Cyan! You guys should put FMV in games because it's so great and what a throwback"... but the reality is infinitely more complex. While there are some emerging technologies to capture truly "volumetric" video, we are just too small and scrappy to invest to much time trying to get something like that working in an already-very-complex game environment. And "3D characters" is already a solve that the entire pipeline is already built for, so it just makes a lot more sense for us to hone our craft there. As for using stereo-VR live action... we did that in Obduction and VERY uickly ran up against the limitations of that. Hence, all of our NPCs were either view-facing hologram billboards, or locked behind glass so the player couldn't orbit around them. It's a super non-trivial problem.

[joridiculous]

FMV games are more popular than ever.

[Truffle]

I'm not denying the complexities of FMVs in modern games. However as has been pointed out there are quite a few modern day FMV games, are most of them just videos essentially? Yea, but they exist. Heck, I personally don't even see something wrong with locking a player on "X' spot so they can't move their camera, for the duration of an FMV. None of them are ever very long.

I think my biggest grievance is that CW was such an inspiration to me growing up. Their story telling, world building, lore, and puzzles were so vastly different from games I'd been used to. So my grievance is more grounded in a sadness seeing CW, in my personal opinion, being just a shadow of their former selves.

With the retro renaissance we have going on, I truly, and honestly believe CW would have great success in launching a title just like og Myst, OG Riven. Static screens, fixed player movement, so that FMVs can integrate, game spanning hints, and demonstration of mechanics to solve puzzles.

If not but for VR implementation I don't really think anything is stopping them from doing that, even if there are only one or two actors (Which was clearly the case with Obduction a game that raised less money than this).

It's clear that the demand is there for a retro and accurate to the style Myst-like. I know CW is capable of it. Just look at the response to the loss of FMVs (later put back) in the Myst remake, the current fear I and many have that the Riven remake is going to replace them as well.

Ultimately their twice now interest in VR first over 'regular' play methods has hurt the potential of both Obduction, and Firmament.

Nothing wrong with VR development, but in the majority of cases developing the same game for both VR and standard hurts the potential of a game, for both sides, due to the added number of compromises needed to make it work.

[Darkeyedseer]

Originally posted by joridiculous:

FMV games are more popular than ever.

ok thats a lie FMV games are extreamly rare and its becoming an less and less used format hell nowadays its pretty much used only in choose your own adventer games or as essentially a custscean they are extreamly rare and not that popular they are only showing up with indie studios in very specific situations.

Originally posted by Cocoa Otter:

I'm not denying the complexities of FMVs in modern games. However as has been pointed out there are quite a few modern day FMV games, are most of them just videos essentially? Yea, but they exist. Heck, I personally don't even see something wrong with locking a player on "X' spot so they can't move their camera, for the duration of an FMV. None of them are ever very long.

dude your on a trying to dump on firmament game OBDUCTION was a bad game full stop it is literally worse that myst 1, 2 ,3. OBUCTION is literally one of the weaker of the cyan games the puzzles were boring and amounted to just walking place to place and this is not even getting on how on launch the game had massive performance issues and was nearly unplayable do to the stuttering.

you like obduction good for you firmament is a far better game the puzzles are fun I dont have to spend 20 mins walking across the world because welp i need to find the 20th combination code.

[Gargaj]

There are SOME new FMV games (Sam Barlow's stuff, Not For Broadcast, etc.), and while volumetric video is expensive, you can capture video with a depth pass and make it look like a Star Wars hologram - there are creative ways around it. But I'm also okay with not having it - I think the particle-based rendering they chose for The Mentor is fun.

[Truffle]

Originally posted by Darkeyedseer:

Originally posted by joridiculous:

FMV games are more popular than ever.

ok thats a lie FMV games are extreamly rare and its becoming an less and less used format hell nowadays its pretty much used only in choose your own adventer games or as essentially a custscean they are extreamly rare and not that popular they are only showing up with indie studios in very specific situations.

Originally posted by Cocoa Otter:

I'm not denying the complexities of FMVs in modern games. However as has been pointed out there are quite a few modern day FMV games, are most of them just videos essentially? Yea, but they exist. Heck, I personally don't even see something wrong with locking a player on "X' spot so they can't move their camera, for the duration of an FMV. None of them are ever very long.

dude your on a trying to dump on firmament game OBDUCTION was a bad game full stop it is literally worse that myst 1, 2 ,3. OBUCTION is literally one of the weaker of the cyan games the puzzles were boring and amounted to just walking place to place and this is not even getting on how on launch the game had massive performance issues and was nearly unplayable do to the stuttering.

you like obduction good for you firmament is a far better game the puzzles are fun I dont have to spend 20 mins walking across the world because welp i need to find the 20th combination code.

Good job ignoring literally everything I said that was an overall criticism and explanation of why I generally dislike both games. Im not praising Obduction.

Just expressing my opinion as to why I've been disappointed by both of them. I'm glad you've enjoy Firmament

[chakkman]

I love that there are no cutscenes. Nothing worse than redious parts where you can't really do anything. I'm much more for the kind of story telling the game presents: Readables and the occasional voice.

[chakkman]

Originally posted by Darkeyedseer:

OBDUCTION was a bad game full stop

Obduction was anything but bad. And, spelling and punctuation really makes stuff more readable and better to understand.

[Darkeyedseer]

Originally posted by Cocoa Otter:

Just expressing my opinion as to why I've been disappointed by both of them. I'm glad you've enjoy Firmament

Originally posted by Cocoa Otter:

This game feels like such a big step backwards from Obduction,

hey look that's a quote from you and there is alot more of you pretty much just dumping on firmament likes like you have a chip on your shoulder. obductions was literally unplayable at launch and the puzzles are so simple that you can brute force everything thanks to the registry it is a pure walking simulator. so the fact that you think obduction is a big step forward "ha" kind of puts a hey maybe this person is just blowing smoke and the whole situation.

and I didn't address the rest of it because anyone with a decent brain can nitpick or twist stuff to fit your narrative just like your twisting in claiming your not praising obduction. your not but you do keep repeatly put obduction as a better game than firmament. almost like you like the game and need to justify why its better.... but something that I do find funny is your profile you have obduction and you have firmament but you only have Riven and you have played it less than firmament and firmament is far less play time than obduction.

do you know why OG cyan games had fixed movements the card to card movement? its its not because they wanted the game to be like that they were limited the technology of the time. OG myst was literally just a slideshow how you clicked the screen would tell it what slide card to pull. it came out in 1993 and was graphicly better any anything else but the trade off was the inability to have free movement.

[Darkeyedseer]

Originally posted by chakkman:

Originally posted by Darkeyedseer:

OBDUCTION was a bad game full stop

Obduction was anything but bad. And, spelling and punctuation really makes stuff more readable and better to understand.

dysgraphia so deal with the spelling and punctuation because that's not a disability I'm getting over. obduction was literally worse than the original three it always places in 4th when there is a poll on cyan games.

on launch the game was unplayable do to massive stuttering issues. the puzzles are so simple that it amounts to walk over here get code walk over here enter code. the one point where they could force the players to learn is undercut by the register turning the game into one massive walking simulator. speaking of walking better get used to it because the game loves to have large open spaces to show off its pretty back drops.

[K]

I don't think anyone was claiming it would be a trivial task, but it is something of a tradition in Cyan games. There's a sadness in seeing an end to it.

And Obduction was a great game.

[joridiculous]

Originally posted by Darkeyedseer:

Originally posted by chakkman:

Obduction was anything but bad. And, spelling and punctuation really makes stuff more readable and better to understand.

dysgraphia so deal with the spelling and punctuation because that's not a disability I'm getting over. obduction was literally worse than the original three it always places in 4th when there is a poll on cyan games.

on launch the game was unplayable do to massive stuttering issues. the puzzles are so simple that it amounts to walk over here get code walk over here enter code. the one point where they could force the players to learn is undercut by the register turning the game into one massive walking simulator. speaking of walking better get used to it because the game loves to have large open spaces to show off its pretty back drops.

How silly skipping over the other Myst games that came before Obduction just so you can slam down , "but it always placed 4".

You musts love the variety of puzzles in this game then. Where you have two in each area/world/biome wtf you want to call them.
1st: Getting a 'machine' running too rise the spire. (It being an ice crusher, furnace, mixer, "battery" (which incidentally is the only puzzle you don't solve with the armthing))
2: Activate the spire. (Basically doing variation of what you already did)
And... that's the game. Not even any proper Lore to read or examine besides from some sparse hints from a narrator(that only worked half the time) and 3 clip boards and a newspaper at the end of the game.

[Truffle]

Originally posted by Darkeyedseer:

Originally posted by Cocoa Otter:

Just expressing my opinion as to why I've been disappointed by both of them. I'm glad you've enjoy Firmament

Originally posted by Cocoa Otter:

This game feels like such a big step backwards from Obduction,

hey look that's a quote from you and there is alot more of you pretty much just dumping on firmament likes like you have a chip on your shoulder. obductions was literally unplayable at launch and the puzzles are so simple that you can brute force everything thanks to the registry it is a pure walking simulator. so the fact that you think obduction is a big step forward "ha" kind of puts a hey maybe this person is just blowing smoke and the whole situation.

and I didn't address the rest of it because anyone with a decent brain can nitpick or twist stuff to fit your narrative just like your twisting in claiming your not praising obduction. your not but you do keep repeatly put obduction as a better game than firmament. almost like you like the game and need to justify why its better.... but something that I do find funny is your profile you have obduction and you have firmament but you only have Riven and you have played it less than firmament and firmament is far less play time than obduction.

do you know why OG cyan games had fixed movements the card to card movement? its its not because they wanted the game to be like that they were limited the technology of the time. OG myst was literally just a slideshow how you clicked the screen would tell it what slide card to pull. it came out in 1993 and was graphicly better any anything else but the trade off was the inability to have free movement.

First, good job cherry picking from my profile and other comments to fit your narrative. When I've said before, and still stand by that even Obduction wasn't that up there for a CW game to begin with. I bring Obduction up so much because it is LITERALLY their most recent new IP in the more or less traditional style, for about 10 or 11 years. Yea a literal two console generations happened between Obduction and their last full game release (and we're on a third now with Firmament). So I implore you to try and give me anything even remotely recent or comparable, given the, as you've pointed out, advancement in technology that's allowed them to do more.

Just because I say Obduction is better than this by far, doesn't mean I'm saying Obduction is great, top tier, god level experience. Just that it's a better game than Firmament, I would call it a pathetic showing if comparing it to the classic games.

Second, I don't need Steam to play Riven, Myst, etc. I've got a Windows 98 tower for the bulk of my retro PC gaming. I grew up on these games, and yes prefer getting their authentic look before all the rereleases and remasters. I've literally still got the boxes and discs.

Third, no one is denying that they would've liked to have done more with Myst, Riven, etc, if the technology allowed it. But at the same time, that made CW a pioneering studio for those two decades when it came to this genre. They pushed the boundries and got the most out of the tech they could every single time, for their vision.

But, by in large classic CW fans love the 'slide show', because they made the game, for the better, stand out from the crowd, then and now. They created worlds (Especially in Riven's case) that have stood the test of time visually because of their pioneering.

So yes, I have a chip on my shoulder, I'm an old school CW fan. I think a game that brings back their old style would do well in this decade. I like to have lore to read, cutscenes to watch, environmental story telling, and a world that by in large feels interconnected.

I'm happy for those that have enjoyed Firmament, it's world, and puzzles, I truly mean that. But it's not going to stop me from expressing my disappointment when I personally did not enjoy it.

[Darkeyedseer]

its not really cherry picking when you have done it multiple times in multiple threads.
and im not saying that your claiming obduction is the best Im point out how you keep coming into threads saying obduction is better than firmament which is BS. I love the hypocracy "your not listening to what im saying" as you literally twist what i said I never said you claimed obduction was the best just that its better and its not.

and no the game that i actually can run on launch whose puzzles were actually fun instead of putting me to sleep is not worse than obduction a game that even my pc had a fit and pulled a wtf have you installed on me. it was broken and the puzzles were boring the only thing obduction had going for it was the story but its still not that great of a story.

also its weird you say you don't need steam yet you bought riven on steam yet not the rest of the collection also don't speak for classic fans just don't. because I prefer the improvements that they made to try and get rid of the slideshow when they did the re-release, and honestly a lot of the fans love that the slideshow has been reduces as much as it was.

no the oldschool slideshow would not go over well and honestly the it would massively hurt the game because the only people its going to please is the "Retro" crowd.

[Darkeyedseer]

Originally posted by two.2:

Some are going to like the game, some aren't. That's all there is to it. No need to have anxiety from it.

to be fair yea everyone can like what they want not not like what they don't want to like, but there is a issues when a person goes from dislike something to trying to get others others to dislike it as well. and yea i have a chip on my shoulder because one of my fav flight sims literally got kneecapped by fanboys of a different game doing that.

on this discussion look at the attempt to defenvr FMV even though FMV is considered to be a massively limiting format to use really more out a need that a desire, and every dev that has been force to use it tends to be really happy when they can finally afford to not have to use it.

in the last 10 years we have had want only 3 good games that were reliant on fmv NFB, her story, and bander. its the a format that is on the rise its a format that is outdated.

[xChrono]

Originally posted by Cocoa Otter:

However as has been pointed out there are quite a few modern day FMV games, are most of them just videos essentially? Yea, but they exist. Heck, I personally don't even see something wrong with locking a player on "X' spot so they can't move their camera, for the duration of an FMV. None of them are ever very long.

Originally posted by Gargaj:

There are SOME new FMV games (Sam Barlow's stuff, Not For Broadcast, etc.)

Originally posted by Darkeyedseer:

in the last 10 years we have had want only 3 good games that were reliant on fmv NFB, her story, and bander. its the a format that is on the rise its a format that is outdated.

All of the examples of FMV games given in this discussion do not provide a fully accessible 3D environment that the player can explore at will as it was the case in Obduction.
This makes them incomparable, as they cover a completely different genre and play style.
That's why i would like to see some examples of adventure games with fully accessible 3D enviornment, which have been released in the last 10 years and also rely on FMV.
Are there even other games who fulfilled these criteria besides Obduction ?

Originally posted by Gargaj:

you can capture video with a depth pass and make it look like a Star Wars hologram - there are creative ways around it.

Even if you add depth, you still will not be able to solve the mentioned limitation of the fixed viewing angle.