So, about the ending [untagged spoilers for canon ending]

[themonsterofthenet]

OK for one thing, it's a downer. You don't even get to spend your last moments with your actual friends; instead, you just get a recreation of them from memory. I'd much rather go give a sorely needed hug to the real Chert, thank you very much.

But I was mostly let down by the unsatisfactory answer to the mystery. I played the whole game under the impression that something abnormal was going on, which needed to be explained: Why does everything suddenly go boom? And the answer is... for no particular reason. Really, it was just their time to go. That's just how it is, apparently.

That makes no sense. Our sun goes from yellow to red giant to supernova within 22 minutes, and I'm not supposed to consider it strange? I'm no astronomer, but I'm pretty sure that a star's red giant phase is supposed to last something like millions of years, not 20 minutes! Even crazier is the fact that, within these 22 minutes, most of the stars in our galaxy explode. The Nomai describe it as "the universe is dying" but that doesn't mean its death is natural. Human lifespan is measured in decades; if all the elderly around the world died within 22 minutes, no one would consider it normal, even if they died of age-related causes. And a star's lifespan is millions or even billions of years! This is positively ridiculous. Maybe you could argue that it's normal in the game's universe, but this is still a disappointing explanation. So yeah, I feel kind of cheated here.

By the way, the Nomai's plan would never have worked, even if the sun station had succeeded. If you have the "You have suffered a terrible fate" achievement, you'll realise why. (Spoiler tags here for those who don't have it.) If you set up a black hole + white hole pair in the High Energy Lab, shoot a scout into the black hole so that it comes out the white hole, and quickly remove the black hole warp before the scout reaches the black hole, the "future" scout came from nowhere, hence paradox, hence SPACETIME IS DESTROYED! If you fall into Ash Twin's black hole so future-you comes out the white hole, and in the next loop you don't go into the black hole, then future-you came out of nowhere, hence paradox, hence SPACETIME IS DESTROYED! So... if you set up the sun station to trigger a supernova, use the supernova's energy to send out a probe in the past, but after the probe is sent you prevent the sun from going supernova (which is what the Nomai intended to do), then the probe's energy came out of nowhere, hence paradox, hence...

...yep. If the sun station had worked, the Nomai would have ended up unwittingly destroying the universe. Good thing it failed! As a corollary, since the probe did launch, it follows that the protagonist also can't stop the sun from going supernova, save for destroying spacetime (which would be even worse). So, even before you reach the ending, you can deduce that the solar system cannot be saved, no matter what.

However, while you can't stop the sun from going supernova, you could try to save Hearthians at least. Grab some of those magic tree seeds (and enough soil), and plant them on the Eye version of the Magic Quantum Moon (recall the conversation with Feldspar, where it's implied that they start producing oxygen almost immediately after planting). Then it's just a matter of bringing as many people as you can before the explosion. There you go, enjoy your new home planet. Was that so hard?

But ok, let's say the above plan is flawed somehow, and you absolutely can't get your people to a safe place in time. Everyone who does not experience the time loop only has 22 minutes to live (from their perspective). So you can't make things worse, right? WRONG! Remember Gabbro? They are - for all intents and purposes - immortal, like you. From their point of view, they outlive the supernova - many times, in fact. You've just murdered someone who would otherwise live forever. (It would be different if they had been in on your plan to find the Eye, but since they weren't, it's murder.)

Actually, about finding the Eye... how is it locked into specific coordinates? Aren't magic quantum objects supposed to be moving around randomly unless a conscious being can see them (or a picture of them)? Solanum can see a reflection of it, but she isn't constantly looking at it, is she? But maybe it still somehow counts. Heck, maybe that's what the Nomai's "pilgrimage" to the Magic Quantum Moon was all about; having an observer there at all times, so the Eye doesn't move.

This post ended up being something between "criticism" and "random thoughts". All in all... I guess I expected more?

[Atlessa]

Maybe that is why the sun station didn't work - because the Nomai got all the data they needed, and then shut it down thus collapsing the time loop leaving them with no data and no memory of having shut it down.
... hurts my brain to think about it.

Also maybe that's why ALL of the universe is suddenly going supernova; because of the paradox our character is creating with his newfound powers.


Because yeah, no matter how you slice it it just makes no sense that all the stars in the universe flicker out within the same half hour or so, let alone that any one being could observe it all happening.


Bottom line, I think it's just not safe to think about it TOO hard and just enjoy it for what it is.


Edit: I also find it HIGHLY suspect that Interloper would impact the Sun so close to it going supernova without being somehow responsible for the latter. When I first noticed how close to the end that happens I was CERTAIN that Interloper wasn't a regular old comet but something á la Lavos - like an Alien seedling that eats Stars after hatching or something to that effect.

[Goblin]

If you shut off the loop and get any of the multiple endings other than the two you mentioned, space-time does not collapse. You can live for eternity on The Stranger, float in space until you stop thinking, reality never cracks - unless you sent something through the black hole. It seems that phenomenon is only limited to the existence of matter, not energy.

The Eye is held in stasis, this is explained in the DLC. I'm not even certain if it's ever been moving randomly, that's only an effect of matter that has been near it as far as I am aware. The Eye itself isn't a physical object, it's a hole in reality.

Originally posted by Atlessa:

Edit: I also find it HIGHLY suspect that Interloper would impact the Sun so close to it going supernova without being somehow responsible for the latter. When I first noticed how close to the end that happens I was CERTAIN that Interloper wasn't a regular old comet but something á la Lavos - like an Alien seedling that eats Stars after hatching or something to that effect.

The Interloper never changes its course, it only flies into the sun because the sun suddenly became massive. So even if it somehow contributed to its death, there indeed was already something odd going on with the sun beforehand.
But I agree with your bottom line. It's all game mechanics, to give you an enjoyable journey, not astrophysics.

[themonsterofthenet]

Originally posted by Goblin:

If you shut off the loop and get any of the multiple endings other than the two you mentioned, space-time does not collapse. You can live for eternity on The Stranger, float in space until you stop thinking, reality never cracks - unless you sent something through the black hole. It seems that phenomenon is only limited to the existence of matter, not energy.

I don't understand what you mean. Why do you think that spacetime only breaks because of matter-related paradoxes and not energy-related paradoxes? Do you have a counterexample, where there's an energy-related paradox and spacetime doesn't break?

[Goblin]

Originally posted by themonsterofthenet:

Originally posted by Goblin:

If you shut off the loop and get any of the multiple endings other than the two you mentioned, space-time does not collapse. You can live for eternity on The Stranger, float in space until you stop thinking, reality never cracks - unless you sent something through the black hole. It seems that phenomenon is only limited to the existence of matter, not energy.

I don't understand what you mean. Why do you think that spacetime only breaks because of matter-related paradoxes and not energy-related paradoxes? Do you have a counterexample, where there's an energy-related paradox and spacetime doesn't break?

The actual ending of the game? You shut down the ATP, go near the Eye, and then can spend as much time as you want and even watch your own sun go supernova from there. The ATP is shut down yet you still have the knowledge from previous loops.
Your own description in the OP pretends only setting off a supernova manually would cause issues, but the only real issue is the ATP not activating, not the supernova itself. Same thing applies to the other bad endings like on The Stranger and drifting through space.

[themonsterofthenet]

Originally posted by Goblin:

Originally posted by themonsterofthenet:

I don't understand what you mean. Why do you think that spacetime only breaks because of matter-related paradoxes and not energy-related paradoxes? Do you have a counterexample, where there's an energy-related paradox and spacetime doesn't break?

The actual ending of the game? You shut down the ATP, go near the Eye, and then can spend as much time as you want and even watch your own sun go supernova from there. The ATP is shut down yet you still have the knowledge from previous loops.
Your own description in the OP pretends only setting off a supernova manually would cause issues, but the only real issue is the ATP not activating, not the supernova itself. Same thing applies to the other bad endings like on The Stranger and drifting through space.

That's knowledge, ie information, not energy. The game never tells us that information-out-of-nowhere breaks spacetime, so that's fine (by the game's rules). Energy is a problem, however, because it's basically equivalent to matter.

BTW I never claimed that the supernova has to be set off manually, natural supernova is the same thing.

[Goblin]

Originally posted by themonsterofthenet:

Originally posted by Goblin:

The actual ending of the game? You shut down the ATP, go near the Eye, and then can spend as much time as you want and even watch your own sun go supernova from there. The ATP is shut down yet you still have the knowledge from previous loops.
Your own description in the OP pretends only setting off a supernova manually would cause issues, but the only real issue is the ATP not activating, not the supernova itself. Same thing applies to the other bad endings like on The Stranger and drifting through space.

That's knowledge, ie information, not energy. The game never tells us that information-out-of-nowhere breaks spacetime, so that's fine (by the game's rules). Energy is a problem, however, because it's basically equivalent to matter.

BTW I never claimed that the supernova has to be set off manually, natural supernova is the same thing.

How do they send said knowledge? A series of data, encoded in electricity (or whatever that purple stuff running though their cables is), IE energy. It gets sent to the masks in the past, then streamed into your brain.
Even your thoughts, right now, are just energy setting of synapses in your brain. How would you share that without sending energy?

Edit: and my point is, the non-paradoxical loop is energy from the nova going into the energy core, creating a time rift which stuff gets sent through. When you remove that core to use it in the Vessel, said energy can't go into the core and the end of the loop never happens. Whether you remove the energy going into the core (not setting off the nova like the Nomai planned) or remove the core so the energy can't go into it is irrelevant, so the Nomai shutting down the sun station would not have caused a paradox unless you would at the end of a run as well. And the reality is, you can stand and stare at the sun from the Eye and watch it blow up, and this only causes an issue if you went through it in the last cycle. Therefore, only matter existing without a cause causes said spacetime destruction.

[themonsterofthenet]

Originally posted by Goblin:

Originally posted by themonsterofthenet:

That's knowledge, ie information, not energy. The game never tells us that information-out-of-nowhere breaks spacetime, so that's fine (by the game's rules). Energy is a problem, however, because it's basically equivalent to matter.

BTW I never claimed that the supernova has to be set off manually, natural supernova is the same thing.

How do they send said knowledge? A series of data, encoded in electricity (or whatever that purple stuff running though their cables is), IE energy. It gets sent to the masks in the past, then streamed into your brain.
Even your thoughts, right now, are just energy setting of synapses in your brain. How would you share that without sending energy?

Edit: and my point is, the non-paradoxical loop is energy from the nova going into the energy core, creating a time rift which stuff gets sent through. When you remove that core to use it in the Vessel, said energy can't go into the core and the end of the loop never happens. Whether you remove the energy going into the core (not setting off the nova like the Nomai planned) or remove the core so the energy can't go into it is irrelevant, so the Nomai shutting down the sun station would not have caused a paradox unless you would at the end of a run as well. And the reality is, you can stand and stare at the sun from the Eye and watch it blow up, and this only causes an issue if you went through it in the last cycle. Therefore, only matter existing without a cause causes said spacetime destruction.

Information and energy are different things. Sending information to the past *uses* energy, yes, but information-out-of-nowhere is still not equivalent to energy-out-of-nowhere. It's not the supernova's energy that is sent into the past; the energy is used to send the information to the past. I mean, your brain remembering an extra 22 minutes shouldn't take the energy of a supernova.
There is no natural law of conservation of matter (nuclear reactions don't conserve matter). There's only the law of conservation of energy. So that's what's broken to cause the destruction of spacetime.

[Atlessa]

One way to think about it: information ISN'T energy, but TRANSMITTING information USES energy.

Example: I write something on a pice of paper, ball it up and throw it at you. I expended energy to send the information, and you will expend some energy to retrieve it by catching it or bending down to pick it up off the floor.

Arguably the ways we know in our world to transmit digital data all send it as a form of energy, sure, but then there's quantum entanglement... and who knows HOW the Nomai Statues actually work, considering they can apparently read your brain from a few hundred kilometers away, and even (spoilers for the DLC) through whatever material the Stranger is made out of, which blocks ANYTHING your signalscope might pick up from outside...

[ivanything43]

You're right about information being energy. But the game made the rule that information is allowed to go back in time without any consequences. That's definitely not how it works in real life, but I think it's an intuitive enough rule and it allows the story to work.

The only thing in the ATP that uses the supernova's energy for is the time travel, specifically sending INFORMATION back in time. There is no energy being sent back in time because it is only sending information. Everything else in the project is done through normal means of energy, not time travel energy. The probe cannon does not use future supernova energy to launch the probe, it just uses the information to send it to a random direction.

The supernovas happening everywhere really is just the universe dying. The commonly accepted reason is that the eye it needs to make a new universe and it needs a conscious observer to do so. Universes just die on their own, it's just part of the process.
I disagree that you could save the heartians by just shoving them all in the quantum moon. And even then, is that really a good ending? Having a society that is just stuck in a foggy wasteland for the rest of time? Maybe you could be sent to the stranger, but I don't think that's that much better, and you can't guarantee there's enough artifacts.

For the Gabbro thing, I think it's a debatable moral conundrum of if that is considered murder. It's also not guaranteed that you even meet Gabbro. But lets say you do meet him. I know it's a weird thing to say but, I'm not sure he would mind much. He's died several times and every time he has, he's stayed in that same spot, just relaxing. He could go anywhere, explore the world like you, maybe have a bit more trouble since he needs to find his ship and he would probably need to come with you since you have the translator but he doesn't, he's content just enjoying what he has now. I really think he's already accepted death.
It's not 100% of course, like I said, it's debatable. But because it IS debatable, I don't think you can say 100% that it was a bad decision to not force an ending where you save Gabbro.
Maybe technically you could also find other hearthians and make them look at a statue to get their memory saved to have more immortal people but I think that's reaching fan fiction territory of changing the plot. Would also just take a lot of resources and I really don't think it adds much to the game.

For the eye of the universe thing. I kind of agree, it is weird how the source of quantum objects just sits in one spot in the universe. But there are some explanations that would work. For example, I said the eye needs a conscious observer to enter it. Maybe when it's ready for the next conscious observer, it stays still for something to find it. Would be hard for it to get a conscious observer if it kept moving around.

I know the ending might feel a bit disappointing, but in my opinion, I think it was the right ending. It really hammers home the main kind of message of the game of acceptance and remembering. You might want to save everyone, stop the supernova, save solanum, whatever. But you can't do everything you want, at some point, it'll all end, and it's time to go. But you should always be happy that your memories of whatever happened are still with you.

I do agree there is a bit in the game that is contrived, but most if not all of them were for convenience of gameplay or set up something cool. I hope you still enjoyed the game and will remember it fondly even if you felt it was a bit contrived.

[themonsterofthenet]

Originally posted by ivanything43:

You're right about information being energy. But the game made the rule that information is allowed to go back in time without any consequences. That's definitely not how it works in real life, but I think it's an intuitive enough rule and it allows the story to work.

The only thing in the ATP that uses the supernova's energy for is the time travel, specifically sending INFORMATION back in time. There is no energy being sent back in time because it is only sending information. Everything else in the project is done through normal means of energy, not time travel energy. The probe cannon does not use future supernova energy to launch the probe, it just uses the information to send it to a random direction.

Oh. That makes sense. Thanks!

Originally posted by ivanything43:

The supernovas happening everywhere really is just the universe dying. The commonly accepted reason is that the eye it needs to make a new universe and it needs a conscious observer to do so. Universes just die on their own, it's just part of the process.

I could accept that if the game offered an explanation for this process. As it is, it might as well be "everything suddenly vanishes" or "everything suddenly transforms into iron" or any bogus way to end the Universe. It makes no sense.

Originally posted by ivanything43:

For the Gabbro thing, I think it's a debatable moral conundrum of if that is considered murder. It's also not guaranteed that you even meet Gabbro. But lets say you do meet him. I know it's a weird thing to say but, I'm not sure he would mind much. He's died several times and every time he has, he's stayed in that same spot, just relaxing. He could go anywhere, explore the world like you, maybe have a bit more trouble since he needs to find his ship and he would probably need to come with you since you have the translator but he doesn't, he's content just enjoying what he has now. I really think he's already accepted death.
It's not 100% of course, like I said, it's debatable. But because it IS debatable, I don't think you can say 100% that it was a bad decision to not force an ending where you save Gabbro.

The morally right thing to do would be for the protagonist and Gabbro to make the decision together.

Originally posted by ivanything43:

I know the ending might feel a bit disappointing, but in my opinion, I think it was the right ending. It really hammers home the main kind of message of the game of acceptance and remembering. You might want to save everyone, stop the supernova, save solanum, whatever. But you can't do everything you want, at some point, it'll all end, and it's time to go. But you should always be happy that your memories of whatever happened are still with you.

I do agree there is a bit in the game that is contrived, but most if not all of them were for convenience of gameplay or set up something cool. I hope you still enjoyed the game and will remember it fondly even if you felt it was a bit contrived.

I don't really like the message :P It made me think of how everyone I love will die at some point, which is not something I want to think about.

But I have to admit that the game is otherwise really cool.

[Bibulous_Blanket]

Thinking about the fact that you and everyone you know will die is an important part of becoming a man/woman.

It teaches you to truly treasure everything and every one.

Humanity itself will one day end, even if it isn't self inflicted.

This absolute truth is one of the few truly known things about the universe and I assure you grappling with it early and often will make you a better human to your fellow man including yourself.

[themonsterofthenet]

Originally posted by Bibulous_Blanket:

Thinking about the fact that you and everyone you know will die is an important part of becoming a man/woman.

It teaches you to truly treasure everything and every one.

Humanity itself will one day end, even if it isn't self inflicted.

This absolute truth is one of the few truly known things about the universe and I assure you grappling with it early and often will make you a better human to your fellow man including yourself.

No thanks, I think I'll stay immature >.>