love outerwilds, but i didn't want a horror game (spoilers)

[goober]

anybody else who's not a fan of horror games kind of upset by the dlc? i love the story telling, but the gameplay i'm just not a huge fan of. i don't like trying to "trick" horror ai. i just want to know more of the story.

[Furrfire]

Well I think they are red herrings anyways... a type of... Those places looked important, if nothing else cause they are elevated and lit up with lamps n stuff. I didn't know where else to go, I couldn't find anything anywhere else when I was stuck.

[Quillithe]

I mean, you are intended to. You sneak after to find the pathway, and then you're supposed to connect the flood knocking you out and all the screaming to assume it takes the strangers out too. Also if you raft by afterwards you won't hear the singing. I mean, sometimes you get stuck on a puzzle but they definitely tried to string some hints together there.

And dropping the lamp has nothing to do with any puzzle except one. Did you maybe miss the sequence of hints that leads to the slide reels that show you exactly what to do in the dark sections? It would be pretty frustrating without those.

I wasn't a huge fan of the dark sections so I went everywhere else first mostly, and then pretty much just did the bit you're showed to do rather than try to explore too much.

[Furrfire]

Yes, I did eventually learn all that- I used that route to get the achievement for seeing all vaults. It was one of those "oh I shoulda thought of that!" moments, but it just looked and felt like you are supposed to dim your lamp and follow behind them. The whole thing to me in that way feels red herring.

But yep- cause I thought dropping the lamp was diabled in dreamworld made it very hard to find things and secrets. That is literally what I thought too. I even commented to myself... Huh.. you can't drop the lamp here eh?

Nope... I was wrong... just didn't look down enough or something, so then came 20 hours of suffering in the darkness lol.

[Quillithe]

You are supposed to follow along though, it's how you find the stairs down and learn that sneaking won't work. I wouldn't say it's a red herring any more than the broken door to the sun station tower or anything though, it's just letting you know where to go and then how to get there is the puzzle.

You really don't need to do the lamp trick though. You're given slide directions of where to go for the most part so you don't really need to explore the whole area, and it's either decently well lit with lamps or has candles to light everywhere anyway. There is literally nothing hidden in the dark that is important for the game without clues as to where it is. I only used the lamp bit at the very end (and then went back just to look around after beating the DLC).

[goober]

引用自 Quillithe：

引用自 MONKEYMAN：

room with lost waltz

Yeah that absolutely isn't a red herring though, you go through there to get 1/3 of the info for the ending. A red herring would imply you don't go there or it isn't important or something. I mean there's a shortcut that avoids it once you go through once, but that's like saying almost every place in original Outer Wilds is a red herring because you don't need it for the ending.

EDIT: Oops, wrong room. Yeah, I never found that one, you really have to go out of your way to stumble into that since the game basically shoves you the other direction and even tells you to go the other direction, so I still wouldn't count it as a red herring. I was assuming he meant the Elegy for the Rings house

yeah no, you can't really assume "the intended experience" in a game with zero objectives or any guidance. a ♥♥♥♥ ton of people found the lost waltz room by accident before they knew the solution, and it literally has no story meaning at all. my friend did it on stream lmao

[Furrfire]

@quillithe
Not sure we'll ever agree on this or not. I figure by this point you are likely the dev, and that's okay. I'd love to talk this out with you.

It's surprising to me how you can't possibly see how this would be red herring, so let me explain it out more.

You follow behind the birds... it works... You are able to follow them slowly. This feels very familiar with other stealth sections from other games. Dimming your lamp even lets you get closer without them noticing you.
so then-
You get to the party house and then try to figure out how to sneak past the door guards.

I get caught and it just feels like it's possible but I must be doing something wrong, so I then try it a 100 different ways...
When I learned you could hide behind the privacy screens in the back corner, I thought for SURE I was close to solving it, so I tried for hours and hours. Trying to lure the guard away from door (they have trouble reaching you if behind the screens).

It honestly all felt designed like I am supposed to sneak up to the 2nd floor.
It's lit up with lamps and looks important enough to have 2 guards at the door even.
For players who don't realize you can just wait... It will feel like a red herring in my opinion (at least if like me, you are completely stuck at the time and can see no other possible paths of progression).

Eventually I realized no matter what I do, the guard can AUTO grab you, even if he isn't close to you. It is literally impossible to go up them stairs if they are around.

I hope this user experience is helpful.

[Quillithe]

引用自 MONKEYMAN：

yeah no, you can't really assume "the intended experience" in a game with zero objectives or any guidance. a ♥♥♥♥ ton of people found the lost waltz room by accident before they knew the solution, and it literally has no story meaning at all. my friend did it on stream lmao

I'm not saying you can't experience things out of order, but I feel pretty confident that the intended experience they're expecting the average player to have isn't walking over an invisible bridge by chance, blowing out the lights, navigating through the entire mansion, and then running towards the enemy placed behind you that's intended to spook you into walking over the second invisible bridge. I mean, sure, it can happen, but it's going to be very rare and requires you do a large amount of exploring off the path instead of following the clues

[Quillithe]

引用自 Furrfire：

@quillithe
Not sure we'll ever agree on this or not. I figure by this point you are likely the dev, and that's okay. I'd love to talk this out with you.

No, I'm not the dev. I'm just trying to figure out why people had such a different experience. I made my way there, realized that the guy is standing right in front of the fireplace such that it looks completely impossible to get past, tried once anyway, and then figured that given my past experience with Outer Wilds, even if this is possible it's going to be as a very difficult alternative (like landing on sun station).

I'm still suspecting you missed the clue slide reels maybe? When you know exactly where in the room you're trying to get it's more clear you can't.

[Furrfire]

Steam rank 0, and defending this game in every thread the way you do...
Hehe, okay... It's possible you aren't. But I am convinced lol.

I can tell you are the dev cause of the way you defend the design. You can't understand why I'd want to go to the 2nd floor. You designed it, so you KNOW there is nothing up there. So YOUR experience is very different from ours for that very reason.

Because I couldn't figure out the lamp, I missed other key things in other areas, so I was missing some useful hints here n there. But no hint tells you to wait for them to be flushed out (right?). I was stuck badly, and the only possible path forward at the time I could find... was bird house. I found the back door, and actually thought it would be the REAL way to sneak to the upstairs... I literally spent DAYS of play time on this thinking it must be my goal to get up there somehow, cause I was that stuck. To me... it absolutely WAS a big ole red herring... A big stinky one even!

You didn't INTEND for some things to be red herrings, but they will for all practical purposes FEEL like red herrings to players. =3

[Quillithe]

引用自 Furrfire：

Steam rank 0, and defending this game in every thread the way you do...
Hehe, okay... It's possible you aren't. But I am convinced lol.

I can tell you are the dev cause of the way you defend the design. You can't understand why I'd want to go to the 2nd floor. You designed it, so you KNOW there is nothing up there. So YOUR experience is very different from ours for that very reason.

Because I couldn't figure out the lamp, I missed other key things in other areas, so I was missing some useful hints here n there. But no hint tells you to wait for them to be flushed out (right?). I was stuck badly, and the only possible path forward at the time I could find... was bird house. I found the back door, and actually thought it would be the REAL way to sneak to the upstairs... I literally spent DAYS of play time on this thinking it must be my goal to get up there somehow, cause I was that stuck. To me... it absolutely WAS a big ole red herring... A big stinky one even!

You didn't INTEND for some things to be red herrings, but they will for all practical purposes FEEL like red herrings to players. =3

I mean, I'd love to be able to take credit for being the developer, but no. Again I'm just wondering why some people had such an experience of "wandering in darkness" so much.

I can't understand why you were trying to get to the second floor because I had such a different experience, the game tells you to go into the fireplace! I didn't even realize there was a second floor because I wasn't the biggest fan of the dark areas so I didn't feel like doing much wandering around, I just went in to where you're told to go.

Also there are several hints about what happens if you wait- the flood knocking you out and all the screaming to assume it takes the strangers out too. Also if you raft by afterwards you won't hear the singing.

I'm not sure why you need to use the lamp trick either.

Again, it sounds like you missed the slide reels that show you the exact path to take in the dark areas. That seems to be the issue here, it would be pretty frustrating without them.

EDIT: That house has a back door too? I really didn't look around much, heh.

[Furrfire]

Well you should take credit, cause you did make it lol.
It's okay. I get it.
Nearly ever steam forum has that one or 2 gray steam level 0 accounts the devs use so they can say what they really want, while protecting the professional appearance of their main accounts. I'd love to do it too someday, but mostly just to troll my fans lol cause that's how I roll.

Again you prove you are the dev, cause you expect people to only go by what's on the reels. The intended design. You can't fathom why someone would go off the script.

Without the lamp is possible to solve. Sure. But much harder. The world is soo dark, that some of the hints didn't help me until I had lived in the world for dozens of hours and got more familiar with the areas. It was disorientating with how thick the darkness is (the main reason you need the matrix mode trick). But again you can't fathom why this is a problem cause you designed the world and know where everything is and the intended paths.


Lol, if nothing else, I am having more fun bantering about all this then I did playing this expansion. =D

[Quillithe]

引用自 Furrfire：

Again you prove you are the dev, cause you expect people to only go by what's on the reels. The intended design. You can't fathom why someone would go off the script.

I mean, if you ignore a reel that tells you to go into the fireplace and instead try to get to the second floor that isn't a red herring, that's trying to actively work against the game design and hints. Outer Wilds and the DLC both are not games about hidden areas and secrets (excepting a few easter eggs).

Every single location in both games is either placed somewhere directly visible with the game intending you to notice it, or it has a hint pointing you at where it is. Obviously if you ignore the hints and wander around at random it'll take longer, but I don't know why you'd do it.

It isn't that much harder without the lamp - there's lights and candles everywhere important anyway. Intended pathways are either wood walkways with lamps or wide dirt paths with candles. Again, everything about the original game should tell you not to search for secrets since there really isn't a point (unless you want easter eggs).

EDIT: Not sure why you keep bringing up that my profile is private. So what? So is yours - I'm not big into sharing my info online.

[Shiztastic]

引用自 Furrfire：

Well you should take credit, cause you did make it lol.
It's okay. I get it.
Nearly ever steam forum has that one or 2 gray steam level 0 accounts the devs use so they can say what they really want, while protecting the professional appearance of their main accounts. I'd love to do it too someday, but mostly just to troll my fans lol cause that's how I roll.

Again you prove you are the dev, cause you expect people to only go by what's on the reels. The intended design. You can't fathom why someone would go off the script.

Without the lamp is possible to solve. Sure. But much harder. The world is soo dark, that some of the hints didn't help me until I had lived in the world for dozens of hours and got more familiar with the areas. It was disorientating with how thick the darkness is (the main reason you need the matrix mode trick). But again you can't fathom why this is a problem cause you designed the world and know where everything is and the intended paths.


Lol, if nothing else, I am having more fun bantering about all this then I did playing this expansion. =D

Bruh, wtf is wrong with you. To me it just sounds like you’re being obtuse but maybe you’re serious.

The game says “This fireplace is fake, they hid important story stuff back there.” and instead you ignored that and tried to go upstairs? What?

I guess in your case the “New Expedition” button on the main menu is a red herring for how to start the game?

[Iris Fulgur]

引用自 Furrfire：

RED HERRING

You uh... keep using that phrase... I don't think it quite means what you think it means. A red herring is specifically a hint or clue that misleads or distracts you. If there were, for instance, a reel that showed someone going up the stairs in the music room, or going through the projector screen in the lodge, then yes, those would absolutely be considered red herrings. But to my knowledge, Outer Wilds doesn't have red herrings. And it's not hard to see why. It's a game specifically about following one lead to find the next, it'd be pretty bad design to have some of those leads dead-end without any revelation or discovery to be made.
The term you're looking for is, "off the beaten path." The locations exist because it makes sense for them to, as a way of world-building and immersion, but they were not meant to be frequently explored or even discovered. Examples of this in the base game would be like diving into the Timber Hearth's geyser system or landing in the volcano on Hollow's Lantern. Yes, you can do it, and there is some minor interesting tidbits to find in those places, but there's no hints leading to it, nor does it give any hints on how to get anywhere else. They're just little nooks in the universe you can explore to fill out the world building, nothing more.

引用自 Furrfire：

But no hint tells you to wait for them to be flushed out (right?). I was stuck badly, and the only possible path forward at the time I could find... was bird house.

This is actually VERY fair. The biggest thing I hope to see getting added in future patches are more comprehensive hints, because even though I managed to play through the DLC without getting stuck, I'm very much used to lateral thinking due to other puzzle/adventure games, so I'm absolutely not an average player. From the sounds of it, your experience isn't a unique one, so I'd definitely like to get more comprehensive clues in the ship log. Something like, "A few minutes into the loop, I heard screams coming from the Shrouded Woodlands," getting added to your log if you're in the home world area at the time would at least help put more focus on that being a critical piece of a puzzle, rather than simply being atmospheric ambient noise, which is actually what I assumed it was at first, and wouldn't be surprised if others did as well.

引用自 Furrfire：

Nearly ever steam forum has that one or 2 gray steam level 0 accounts the devs use so they can say what they really want, while protecting the professional appearance of their main accounts. I'd love to do it too someday, but mostly just to troll my fans lol cause that's how I roll.

Can't believe we were getting trolled not only by one dev, but two!
https://puu.sh/Iic3p/f3799b5548.png
It's just a private account, dork. But I'm sure you already know that and are trolling at this point. Which is weird, because you do actually seem to be somewhat invested in the conversation at hand, and aren't just acting like a complete troll. Have to admit, it's kind of refreshing. I guess you're not too off the mark calling it banter at this point.

引用自 Quillithe：

Every single location in both games is either placed somewhere directly visible with the game intending you to notice it, or it has a hint pointing you at where it is. Obviously if you ignore the hints and wander around at random it'll take longer, but I don't know why you'd do it.

It isn't that much harder without the lamp - there's lights and candles everywhere important anyway. Intended pathways are either wood walkways with lamps or wide dirt paths with candles. Again, everything about the original game should tell you not to search for secrets since there really isn't a point (unless you want easter eggs).

This more or less sums up my thoughts on this. The game rewards exploration, yes, but it doesn't expect blind exploration. The entire game is centered around a guided experience with clues leading you to where you need to go. That's literally the entire point of the Ship Log. It's meant to act as a guide, to help you figure out where to go and try to puzzle out how to get to places you've yet to explore. It's part of why I'm focusing more on that than anything else, tbh. The level design and puzzles are fine. So long as you're not wandering in the dark without reason or purpose, everything is laid out fairly well. I literally only missed the Canyon's shortcut elevator in my own playthrough, (technically I did use it, but only via the invisible bridge) and felt like an absolute fool when my cousin simply walked over to it from the building. The only things that could use work is Ship Log hints.
Though, being entirely honest, I can't even really comment on those hints myself, as I didn't really use them in the first place. For all I know, a lot of the hints I'm suggesting might already be in the log. It's something I'll need to check on a fresh playthrough, as once you reach an area it removes the hints. I'm willing to bet the ones that exist aren't as helpful as they could be though, considering this appears to be the more controversial part of the DLC, so I still feel relatively confident that's where the most work should be put into. Plus, it's not like it'd be the first time the Log Entries were tweaked through patches to help clarify puzzles, so there's fair precedent for it being done.

[Iris Fulgur]

引用自 Iris Fulgur：

But to my knowledge, Outer Wilds doesn't have red herrings.

Actually, scratch that, there is one red herring in the DLC. The Vault Codes. The initial reason a player would want to reach the hidden archives in the first place is to track down the codes, as they're destroyed in the real world. However, when you get to them in the archives, they're still destroyed. You're rewarded with additional information about the inhabitants and rules of the world you're in, which slowly becomes the true purpose of finding the archives through the vault code/archive reels, but the initial promise of those Codes could rightfully be considered a red herring.