Impossible to proceed in City of the Serpent, rope-jump bug

[poisonnuke]

Im stuck in the City of the Serpent in the final ascent, you have to jump around a corner, literally. Two rope swings in succession, one with wall-run and the other one around the corner. Physically already impossible (ok like everything in the game), but Ive tried it a hundred times in the last hour on easiest difficulty.

Anyone else having this game breaking bug?

[EF_Neo1st]

Originally posted by poisonnuke:

Im stuck in the City of the Serpent in the final ascent, you have to jump around a corner, literally. Two rope swings in succession, one with wall-run and the other one around the corner. Physically already impossible (ok like everything in the game), but Ive tried it a hundred times in the last hour on easiest difficulty.

Anyone else having this game breaking bug?

No, not happening the problem to me, could you make a video showing what exactly is happening and where?

[Shiro♌]

Could you provide us the screenshot of the position (map), as well as what you can see in-game?
Perhaps, we could help afterwards, although a video would always be the better choice.

[Emperor Zombie]

Not sure if this will help you as much as it helped me but I ran into a similar issue with the wall-run. Someone had mentioned it is all about what direction you are facing the camera and not Lara Croft.

[Shiro♌]

Originally posted by Emperor Zombie:

Not sure if this will help you as much as it helped me but I ran into a similar issue with the wall-run. Someone had mentioned it is all about what direction you are facing the camera and not Lara Croft.

Yes, it is, indeed, important to always look to the direction you're running to - You wanna run to the left side, you try to turn Lara's third person view to the left side, so Lara'll end up jumping through that way, which guarantees her longer distance to cover with the jump.

Sometimes, as I've been experiencing in Deadly Obsession, annoying, during rope swings only (without wall-runs) is, the game doesn't allow you to swing at all.
You just climb or descend, even if you're using the appropriate buttons to swing. The only way out of this situation is killing yourself, which will end up this bug.
Now, that's kinda not annoying, one might say, right? Well, the thing is, Deadly Obsession respawns you only at the Campsites and saves only at Campsites, so the whole progress you've made must be ran again, unless you don't mind making less progress (it can be related to looting, completing the missions, etc.).

[EF_Neo1st]

Originally posted by Shiro♌梓怜奈:

Originally posted by Emperor Zombie:

Not sure if this will help you as much as it helped me but I ran into a similar issue with the wall-run. Someone had mentioned it is all about what direction you are facing the camera and not Lara Croft.

Yes, it is, indeed, important to always look to the direction you're running to - You wanna run to the left side, you try to turn Lara's third person view to the left side, so Lara'll end up jumping through that way, which guarantees her longer distance to cover with the jump.

Sometimes, as I've been experiencing in Deadly Obsession, annoying, during rope swings only (without wall-runs) is, the game doesn't allow you to swing at all.
You just climb or descend, even if you're using the appropriate buttons to swing. The only way out of this situation is killing yourself, which will end up this bug.
Now, that's kinda not annoying, one might say, right? Well, the thing is, Deadly Obsession respawns you only at the Campsites and saves only at Campsites, so the whole progress you've made must be ran again, unless you don't mind making less progress (it can be related to looting, completing the missions, etc.).

I actually still to see a situation where I am dropping down from a position where I can swing but it just wont let me.
Dont know if playing it over and over (for more test) could give more chance for the bug to happen, but all inputs, including to descend and swing, always work fine like this:
https://youtu.be/SZtsl0YijKc
Playing with kb&m here.

[poisonnuke]

Hi,

I dont see any way to upload pictures here, but I have a link to a walktrough:
https://youtu.be/Q-GDRekn8h0?t=962

at this timestamp the annoying wall-run-jump-around-the-corner-and swing
If the timestamp wont work here: at 16:00 minutes, chapter 5, climb the pyramid

Ive managed the jump after a lot of tries. The viewing direction didnt change a thing, Im always looking where I want to jump (as long as the game lets me look because thats really annoying in SOTTR there are sooo many situation where you cannot control Lara as you want to)
I guess Ive pressed a lot of additional buttons (which are not required for the jump) but somehow these many button-presses helped with the bug.


Now Im stuck in one of the challenge-tombs. Also a wall-run and jump and every time lara misses the target, no matter what I try.

[Shiro♌]

That looks like a problem, regarding incorrect angle; Lara has to face the cross in front to be able to rope-swing with it.
Try practicing a little bit more, and you should get there in no time.

If nothing works, then reload your save(s), and do attempt to try it again. If even that doesn't work, then the only option would be another New Game(+).

[poisonnuke]

I was facing the cross as centered as possible. And most parts of the game worked okish so my technique is not the problem.

But in my last challenge tomb Ive encountered a weird (and illogical behaviour):
one has to come to a complete standstill on the turning point, and jump exactly then. This makes no sense at all from a physical point of view, but ok... because it violates conservation of momentum law in every possible manner.

This technique didnt help in the original City of Serpent problem, but maybe it helps in some other areas.



I have to remember for myself, that SOTTR simply violates every physical law in existence and you should try to learn the SOTTR physics to master the game. Which hurts.

[EF_Neo1st]

Originally posted by poisonnuke:

I was facing the cross as centered as possible. And most parts of the game worked okish so my technique is not the problem.

But in my last challenge tomb Ive encountered a weird (and illogical behaviour):
one has to come to a complete standstill on the turning point, and jump exactly then. This makes no sense at all from a physical point of view, but ok... because it violates conservation of momentum law in every possible manner.

This technique didnt help in the original City of Serpent problem, but maybe it helps in some other areas.



I have to remember for myself, that SOTTR simply violates every physical law in existence and you should try to learn the SOTTR physics to master the game. Which hurts.

Movements at the game are tank movements, you move Lara in relation to her position and camera position.
I dont remember about Rise and TR 2013 but I dont recall having problem with none of both either.

Once camera is set properly to position and you do movements thinking about tank movements, that is no mistake but your own mistakes, I also never had problem with Shadow other than when I made the mistake of not thinking about it as tank or with camera angle wrong.
(In a game with tank controls, players control movement relative to the position of the player character.)

[poisonnuke]

Originally posted by EF_Neo1st:

Movements at the game are tank movements, you move Lara in relation to her position and camera position.
I dont remember about Rise and TR 2013 but I dont recall having problem with none of both either.

Once camera is set properly to position and you do movements thinking about tank movements, that is no mistake but your own mistakes, I also never had problem with Shadow other than when I made the mistake of not thinking about it as tank or with camera angle wrong.
(In a game with tank controls, players control movement relative to the position of the player character.)

I fully disagree with your post. Because Im a game-developer myself and I have invested a lot of time to refine movement controls to be as natural as possible.

And I can assure you, there are lot of situations where Lara will NOT do what the game made expect me to happen. And thats not my mistake but a mistake of the developere, not refining the controls enough.

SOTTR has given us a lot of tutorials and intro sessions to show the controls and movements and the tutorials are designed in a way that the player can expect the laws of physics to be obeyed from the game. But this applies only to a few situations.

Developers shall NEVER expect the player to remake their mental model about basic laws. They should at least obey the ISO 9241-110 but the developers of SOTTR failed not only that most basic foundation for every interaction, but many others too.

And thats true for a lot of other situations too. For example the white markings for climbable areas When playing on Deadly obsession there are a lot of areas which have the same visual characteristics but Lara will simply not climb them but die. Thats clearly not my fault but a total fail in design of affordances and closing the gulf of execution.

[EF_Neo1st]

Originally posted by poisonnuke:

Originally posted by EF_Neo1st:

Movements at the game are tank movements, you move Lara in relation to her position and camera position.
I dont remember about Rise and TR 2013 but I dont recall having problem with none of both either.

Once camera is set properly to position and you do movements thinking about tank movements, that is no mistake but your own mistakes, I also never had problem with Shadow other than when I made the mistake of not thinking about it as tank or with camera angle wrong.
(In a game with tank controls, players control movement relative to the position of the player character.)

I fully disagree with your post. Because Im a game-developer myself and I have invested a lot of time to refine movement controls to be as natural as possible.

And I can assure you, there are lot of situations where Lara will NOT do what the game made expect me to happen. And thats not my mistake but a mistake of the developere, not refining the controls enough.

SOTTR has given us a lot of tutorials and intro sessions to show the controls and movements and the tutorials are designed in a way that the player can expect the laws of physics to be obeyed from the game. But this applies only to a few situations.

Developers shall NEVER expect the player to remake their mental model about basic laws. They should at least obey the ISO 9241-110 but the developers of SOTTR failed not only that most basic foundation for every interaction, but many others too.

And thats true for a lot of other situations too. For example the white markings for climbable areas When playing on Deadly obsession there are a lot of areas which have the same visual characteristics but Lara will simply not climb them but die. Thats clearly not my fault but a total fail in design of affordances and closing the gulf of execution.

Well . . . ok.
I can just say I did not experienced this outside of when I made mistake myself.

I dont play with the white marks so I dont even know where this would show up (but I believe everywhere where Lara can climb or use something . . . it would just be polution on my screen).

About game devs expecting you to understand the game mechanics and adapting to these, there are games built around it and games that dont even tell you the basics of how to extract and exploit every possible best way of playing the game and it is up to the player to do so (1 example is Dark Souls where just the basic mechanics are explained, another example is simracing games, where basic and advanced driving techniques are not explained anywhere in the game and are required not only to drive fast but also to survive inside the track, other are certain plataformers and so on and it is more true in earlier games from before the 2000s).

I dont discredit your opinion and experience as game-developer yourself, but I take the mechanics as "developer choice" and the explanations also as "developers choice" too (and I hate intrusive tutorials, matter of fact, a certain Assassins Creed was a tutorial for over 40min, 40min because I skipped every single cutscene possible, and I just stopped right there, unbearable, I just keep it as I can not refund because it came along with AC Odyssey, so I would have to return Odyssey for that and, well, I like Odyssey).

About ISO 9241-110 . . .
https://www.userfocus.co.uk/resources/iso9241/part110.html
This part of ISO 9241 presents a set of usability heuristics that applies to the interaction of people and information systems (the heuristics are based on an earlier German standard). The standard refers to this interaction as a “dialogue” and describes seven “dialogue principles”. These general principles span the specific dialogue techniques that are discussed in parts 13-17 of ISO 9241. The seven principles are: suitability for the task (the dialogue should be suitable for the user’s task and skill level); self-descriptiveness (the dialogue should make it clear what the user should do next); controllability (the user should be able to control the pace and sequence of the interaction); conformity with user expectations (it should be consistent); error tolerance (the dialogue should be forgiving); suitability for individualisation (the dialogue should be able to be customised to suit the user); and suitability for learning (the dialogue should support learning). The standard describes applications and examples of the dialogue principles. It has one annex (a short bibliography). This part of ISO 9241 used to be known as ISO 9241 part 10, but has now been renumbered under ISO's revision and restructuring programme.

What dialogue description to chose, how to explain and what would eb the user expectations are relative and may vary.

If you play a DOOM game expecting it to play like Halo or CoD where you can rest behind a cover, enemies will not chase you there and you recover life while resting, you would be expecting something that was never intended to be there at DOOM.
Your "movement expectations" (as I understood, you dont expect it to act as "tank controls") dont match what the controls are, also the basics you practiced early on at the game already explain everything you need to use.

How much of the player "hands being held" by the devs will depend on devs choice.
You may consider it a disrespect by the devs for not placing text/voice explaining every single minor detail of how to "operate" with Lara in every single situations and all variations, but I find it extremely disrespectful when the game do so and when the game insists in doing it over and over.

In the end, it is all about dev choice and what the player expect or not from the game (also how the player perceive the game).

[poisonnuke]

DOOM by the way is a very good refined game. Everything works as expected, there are no hickups, nothing unsmooth and so on.

SOTTR on the other hand feels totally like unrefined. No matter how you look at it, its simply not "round". Im currently playing on Deadly Obsession and already my frustration level is quite high. If the game is made that way that some specific controls are the way to go, ok. But in SOTTR it works different from situation to situation. Sometimes Lara can jump across a section with 10 meters at least, in the next moment (it looks identical) she only jumps 2m and falls to death.

If the devs implement a specific mechanic, it should work the same way over the entire game. And it should work "fluently" without breaks and so on. In DOOM the charakter will do what you want, whithout a single exception. You can simply count on it. in SOTTR there is nothing to count on, but luck.

And thats mostly a result of bad implementation, or not enough refinement. Yes, natural/good controls require a friggin lot of refinement, like tens of thousands of hours of work, but that is something I expect from a AAA title.

[poisonnuke]

for example, Im currently stuck in the water-slide in Cozumel. In DO this means, playing the entire slide over an over again. over 30 times now. Everytime, I do absolutely exactly the same thing, exactly the same timing and look-direction and so on, but still Lara misses a lot of swing points over and over again. There is nothing I can change.

Its simply luck when I will manage this level in the end. No technique will help here, and thats a matter of fact.

[Shiro♌]

Originally posted by poisonnuke:

for example, Im currently stuck in the water-slide in Cozumel. In DO this means, playing the entire slide over an over again. over 30 times now. Everytime, I do absolutely exactly the same thing, exactly the same timing and look-direction and so on, but still Lara misses a lot of swing points over and over again. There is nothing I can change.

Its simply luck when I will manage this level in the end. No technique will help here, and thats a matter of fact.

I must disagree with you here.

It's really not about the game being bugged or whatever.
The timing is crucial - Not just when exactly do you decide to jump, but when, and where to exactly, do you decide to throw your grapple axe.
As werid as it may sound, in Serpent's tomb (you can play it on a Score Attack or Time Trial too), you shall be able to hit the spots with your grapple axe by using it as soon as your feet leave the floor, although one may argue, to use it later could help Lara a lot, due to the expected and afterwards swinging speed.. Yet, that's not how it works.

[poisonnuke]

one part is the excavator. There is only one location to jump, you cannot change anything on the position and timing. Everytime I jump right from the edge, looking to the right hand side of the bar to swing and jump... but Lara misses the bar on the lamp-post by miles. And Im really good in jump&run style games so I doubt there is anything Im doing wrong (and Ive tried already every possibility).

The same thing a few meters further on, some times Lara simply waits doing nothing. I can press whatever button I want, she remains in place until she dies. That is by definition a bug/wrong game-design.