What happened to Lara's sex appeal?

[Zhong Ping (钟平)]

I mean, it's not like it's sexist to be sexy. Being sexy is good. Our heros are suposed to be exceptional humans and Lara's sex appeal is a cornerstone of the Tomb Raider brand. What gives here? Are they saying that it is bad to be sexy? I don't know, maybe I've gotten old and out of touch, but I just don't understand why we've gotten so conservative and oppressive about sexuality.

[Zhong Ping (钟平)]

Publicado originalmente por Coldhands:

Publicado originalmente por Zhong Ping (钟平):

It really saddens me that people feel disgust and pitty for people who enjoy sexuality in their media. I mean, I know this is hyperbolic, but I feel like they would prefer women to be in burkas or something. Why do they care so much that other people appreciate sex appeal? Are we not human animals? Do we not naturally enjoy sexuality? What has happened to some people that the mere appearance of a sexualized outfit offends them?

Not that ranting about disgust and pity makes that dude any better, but I think the thing he's cranky about is less the liking of sexy women in video games and more the getting angry about it on the internet, and going on tirades about "agendas," and "politics," and "SJWs." That junk is just a bunch of smoke screen people use to make it look like they're angry about more justifiable things, when really they're genuinely upset about the digital boobies in their toy. Which IS pretty sad. : \

I personally am concerned about the loss of sexuality in games as an artform (not a toy. do you call books and movies toys?). Now let me clerify that not all games should have sexual appeal, in fact perhaps most games shouldn't have sexual appeal. But in any artistic medium there is a place for sexual appeal in art that isn't overt pornographic. Tomb Raider as a franchise is renouned for its sexual appeal in a non-pornographic experience. And it is okay for art like this to exist. What concerns me, deeply, is that this form of art is being chastized and demonized and shamed when it is a part of the human experience. There are people, like me, who are upset about this not because "they took digital boobies out of my toy" but because they are sanatizing sexuality out of the art I enjoy.

Look, we live in a time where games media as an art has never been more diverse. There is nothing wrong with people who love an established franchise being upset in a divergence of a foundational feature of that franchise, even if it is digital boobies. It's not sad. It's a deprivation of human experience and it should be called out. There areplenty of new franchises built to not have sexuality be such a core part of it's identity, and they could build this game as a new franchise, but they are using an established franchise with an established identity. And when you start messing with the identity of an established franchise, especially to appease a political trend of censorship and s.lut shamming, you are going to see people upset about it.

I don't know why this is a surprise and I don't know why people are supporting the push by a powerful segment of our media establishment, fueled by feminist theory, to censor and control art to fit their own sensibilites. Any group using any theoretic sociological framework to advance an agenda of artistic control over society should have oposition.

[Michel Michel (aka Teen-H)]

The thing is that having a sexy Lara would conflict with the character they're building and the story they're telling. There is a time for sexy characters, some games are fully about that, the new TR aren't. Now if people can't stand Lara not wearing a short, I'd say just give them. I personnally think Lara is good looking enough and I couldn't care less about her pants and shorts.

As for the whole SJW debacle, it's true that it has a significant impact on gaming nowadays. But I don't think TR is the right target. BFV on the other hand shows that when you push things too far, people react.

[Zhong Ping (钟平)]

Publicado originalmente por Michel Michel (aka Teen-H):

The thing is that having a sexy Lara would conflict with the character they're building and the story they're telling. There is a time for sexy characters, some games are fully about that, the new TR aren't. Now if people can't stand Lara not wearing a short, I'd say just give them. I personnally think Lara is good looking enough and I couldn't care less about her pants and shorts.

As for the whole SJW debacle, it's true that it has a significant impact on gaming nowadays. But I don't think TR is the right target. BFV on the other hand shows that when you push things too far, people react.

This is a perfectly reasonable response. Thank you :)

[Coldhands]

^I mean, BioWare's making games with sex scenes that have bare-*** titties in them. Japan is cranking out fighting and action games that are juuuust about soft-core porn. Grand Theft Auto has full blown strip clubs where you can go in and get a lap dance. People flipped their ****ing **** when Pillars of Eternity 2 had a bathhouse with fully nude characters walking around.

None of that was a thing a couple console generations ago, when the government was freaking out over Hot Coffee. Even if we lose the booty shorts and stripper tits on Lara Croft, I think we're still in the green on video game sex appeal.

[Zhong Ping (钟平)]

Publicado originalmente por Coldhands:

^I mean, BioWare's making games with sex scenes that have bare-*** titties in them. Japan is cranking out fighting and action games that are juuuust about soft-core porn. Grand Theft Auto has full blown strip clubs where you can go in and get a lap dance. People flipped their ****ing **** when Pillars of Eternity 2 had a bathhouse with fully nude characters walking around.

None of that was a thing a couple console generations ago, when the government was freaking out over Hot Coffee. Even if we lose the booty shorts and stripper tits on Lara Croft, I think we're still in the green on video game sex appeal.

Those are all peripheral examples. But what we do see is a trend of outrage and the subsiquence censorship of sexuality when it comes to lead charectors. The Witcher series being a major outlier in this trend. Now I don't think every game needs to have sexuality as a core aspect of identity for main charectors, but when things like the overwatch censorship and the progressive removal of sexuality from the tomb raider franchise which is established as being a sexualized franchise, it makes one wonder why artists are kow-towing to this loud minority of people who seem hell bent to censor artistic expression that doesn't conform to their ideological frame of mind.

But you are right, it's not illegal, it's not going away, it's just becoming taboo. But that is my concern. This taboo isn't healthy. It treats women like children that need to be protected from the evil male gaze. It's a cousin to s.lut shaming. And I find it has a chilling effect on artistic expression. And yes, even soft core porn (which this is not) is artistic expression.

I just don't like narrow political ideologies messing with the art I enjoy and deminishing an aspect of that art that I appreciate. I, personally, appreciate sexuality in my art. I would have 0 problem with any of this if it wasn't Tomb Raider which carries expectations enharent to the franchise.

[tm0Lif3]

Publicado originalmente por XPL Max_80:

Publicado originalmente por fermedonctagueuletrouduc:

mmh i see i touched a sensitive point. the raging way you write. Man you don't have to be so ashamed, it's nature. Assume your emo attitude.

No their is no rage I just speak in a “matter of fact tone” people on the losing end of a debate in steam forums are usually the first to go into the “rage” comments and or lead with the “rage” comments when they have nothing intelligent to say. Either way you havent shown anything close to a debatable view that makes any impact on the matter.

Done with you kid.

your level of intelligence is 0. litteraly waste of time to even response to ♥♥♥♥♥♥ like you who want to oppress women freedom.

[Coldhands]

Publicado originalmente por Zhong Ping (钟平):

Publicado originalmente por Coldhands:

^I mean, BioWare's making games with sex scenes that have bare-*** titties in them. Japan is cranking out fighting and action games that are juuuust about soft-core porn. Grand Theft Auto has full blown strip clubs where you can go in and get a lap dance. People flipped their ****ing **** when Pillars of Eternity 2 had a bathhouse with fully nude characters walking around.

None of that was a thing a couple console generations ago, when the government was freaking out over Hot Coffee. Even if we lose the booty shorts and stripper tits on Lara Croft, I think we're still in the green on video game sex appeal.

Those are all peripheral examples. But what we do see is a trend of outrage and the subsiquence censorship of sexuality when it comes to lead charectors. The Witcher series being a major outlier in this trend. Now I don't think every game needs to have sexuality as a core aspect of identity for main charectors, but when things like the overwatch censorship and the progressive removal of sexuality from the tomb raider franchise which is established as being a sexualized franchise, it makes one wonder why artists are kow-towing to this loud minority of people who seem hell bent to censor artistic expression that doesn't conform to their ideological frame of mind.

But you are right, it's not illegal, it's not going away, it's just becoming taboo. But that is my concern. This taboo isn't healthy. It treats women like children that need to be protected from the evil male gaze. It's a cousin to s.lut shaming. And I find it has a chilling effect on artistic expression. And yes, even soft core porn (which this is not) is artistic expression.

I just don't like narrow political ideologies messing with the art I enjoy and deminishing an aspect of that art that I appreciate. I, personally, appreciate sexuality in my art. I would have 0 problem with any of this if it wasn't Tomb Raider which carries expectations enharent to the franchise.

Sure, main characters that are sexy girls made by dudes, for dudes are going out of style, because it turns out there are a bunch of female gamers who don't care for it. Lara was only ever made up all sexy looking to sell the games to dudes between 12 and 24, and now she's being made more realistic looking to sell the games to everybody. It's not really artistic censorship so much as it is catering to demographics, same as it always was.

Artistic expression in video games is being supported, like I was pointing out, by the ability of developers to put sex and nudity in their games in more tasteful/appropriate ways. No western developer would have gotten away with a fully nude bathhouse or a topless sex scene back when Tomb Raider first came out, but they can now.

[Zhong Ping (钟平)]

Publicado originalmente por Coldhands:

Publicado originalmente por Zhong Ping (钟平):

Those are all peripheral examples. But what we do see is a trend of outrage and the subsiquence censorship of sexuality when it comes to lead charectors. The Witcher series being a major outlier in this trend. Now I don't think every game needs to have sexuality as a core aspect of identity for main charectors, but when things like the overwatch censorship and the progressive removal of sexuality from the tomb raider franchise which is established as being a sexualized franchise, it makes one wonder why artists are kow-towing to this loud minority of people who seem hell bent to censor artistic expression that doesn't conform to their ideological frame of mind.

But you are right, it's not illegal, it's not going away, it's just becoming taboo. But that is my concern. This taboo isn't healthy. It treats women like children that need to be protected from the evil male gaze. It's a cousin to s.lut shaming. And I find it has a chilling effect on artistic expression. And yes, even soft core porn (which this is not) is artistic expression.

I just don't like narrow political ideologies messing with the art I enjoy and deminishing an aspect of that art that I appreciate. I, personally, appreciate sexuality in my art. I would have 0 problem with any of this if it wasn't Tomb Raider which carries expectations enharent to the franchise.

Sure, main characters that are sexy girls made by dudes, for dudes are going out of style, because it turns out there are a bunch of female gamers who don't care for it. Lara was only ever made up all sexy looking to sell the games to dudes between 12 and 24, and now she's being made more realistic looking to see the game to everybody. It's not really artistic censorship so much as it is catering to demographics.

The artistic expression is being supported, like I was pointing out, by the ability of developers to put sex and nudity in their games in more tasteful/appropriate ways. No western developer would have gotten away with a fully nude bathhouse or a topless sex scene back when Tomb Raider first came out, but they can now.

Point taken and well reasoned.

[Coldhands]

^*thumbs up*

[bird2jet]

Only one answer as there always has been only one answer, vote with your wallet.

[Aru]

If OP is starved for attractive and sexy lads in games with actual gameplay(not some stupid hentai clickers) i recommend games like Bayonetta 1 and 2(sadly not on PCs and since it's Nintendo who holds the leash now, we can say goodbye to it appearing on PCs at anything by emulators...that,by the way, evolve freakishly fast for Nintendo even pretty new consoles). Bioware is bad example of it. Nowadays they seem to try really hard to make females as unattractive as possible.Honestly, in DA:I I'd rather let Dorian ravage me because he was fun character to talk to, instead of Kassandra with her manly jaw.....or go at it with that freaking cute dwarven scout npc....

[Örlögin]

Publicado originalmente por Zhong Ping (钟平):

Publicado originalmente por Apocrypha:

Here I am just glad they ditched the sex appeal for more realism.

The last thing a woman trying to survive in the jungle is worried about is if she looks sexy.

I know plenty of sexy women who aren't ashamed of their body's. How is someone who is in shape being sexy and someone in a tropical setting wearing clothes that are a little revealing in any way unrealistic. Women everywhere strive to be sexy AND SO DO MEN! Since when did wanting to be sexy become taboo? And why? I mean, an individual can chose to not value being sexy, but why does that mean that those who value being sexy are somehow lesser than those who don't? How does someone who desires to be sexy and then does so harm anyone?

-Being hunted
-Dangerous creatures all around
-Dangerous plants all around
-Insects buzzing and biting exposed skin
-Bipolar weather (thin layer of clothes is better in heat, near-nudity would mean death, particularly during storms due to the cold)

Yet the woman would be worried about if she looks sexy or not. Sure.

If this was a game about someone working as a model or in the red light district, sure, trying to look sexy would make sense. But it's not. Wearing booty shorts in a tropical rainforest to try to look sexy for men who aren't even around, just to get bitten by a poisonous snake and die because she didn't wear pants, would be a silly way to go.

[Firehawk]

Some people go to really great lengths to force their narrowmindedness onto others it seems.

[Zhong Ping (钟平)]

Publicado originalmente por Firehawk:

Some people go to really great lengths to force their narrowmindedness onto others it seems.

I agree, this narrow minded view of sexuality is obsurd. :P

[eladswerdna]

I don't understand what you mean - I find her sexy. Sex appeal will differ from person to person - it's not universal.