Seriously, am I missing something here? (Game Mechanics Help)

[Talithmara]

You may be wondering why I made a post asking for help with game mechanics, when I also have a post on Page One about the scenes before the final battle. The simple fact of the matter is that I've finally snapped: I'm surrounded by people telling me Cold Steel is **** easy and the only way to have ANY fun is to play NG Nightmare, but I'm playing on normal and repeatedly being oneshot party wiped by bosses.

Starting at the Altina fight at the Imperial Villa every single boss has given me at least one game over when they break out an S-Craft that oneshots my entire team. EVERY boss. On NORMAL. And this isn't new to that point of the game, just that it's been CONSISTENT since then. It happened in CS1, as well. Now, I could be getting trolled by memelords, but I kind of doubt it - I really do think that I might just be missing something.

People say the training camp arc of Sky SC is the hardest arc of the entire series on NG Nightmare. I don't doubt their sincerity when they say that, but I had an easier time with that than the Golem in the Nord Highlands in CS1, and that Golem has nothing on what I've been encountering in CS2. I've been told that this sounds wrong, but they also wouldn't actually give any constructive feedback as to how to adjust my strategy or quartz or whatnot.

"Well, okay, maybe I just need to lean on specific party members who have powerful tools." Wait, people also say CS1 is way too easy, and you don't even get to pick your own party for most of it, or start with the really good stuff. That can't be it. And if it's as easy as they claim, then it has to be possible with any party, right?

You see my conundrum. I'm either missing something, or people are trivializing the game by overgrinding since the experience scaling doesn't seem to be as severe a dropoff as in Sky. I also think that people wouldn't have the nerve to claim that the game is too easy if they themselves went out of their way to ruin the challenge - it's likely something simple.


I'm going to start by listing crucial things I DO know. This will help narrow down where I'm missing something.

- Speed. I know about Speed, Action Quartz, and all that good stuff. Admittedly, my first time through CS1, I didn't see a big difference at first with the early Action Quartz and I started to think it wasn't as important as in Sky, but I learned my mistake later on.

- 200 CP. Yeah, I know 200 CP increases the power of the S-Craft. (I also know that if there's a critical on the turn order, timing your S-Break for it is big.)

- Buff Stacking. Motivate + La Forte = a longer lasting (3 for Motivate, 5 for La Forte) and stronger buff, for example. I actually DIDN'T know this in CS1 since I was playing on a low-res TV and couldn't even make out all the buff/debuff icons, but I've since learned about it in CS2. It can make a difference.

- AT Delay and ailments and such. Yes, I know AT Delay CAN be good... WHEN the Delay Efficacy isn't low! I've heard a lot of people talk about how obscenely broken it is, but that can't be it when many enemies/bosses have significant resistance to delay. It either doesn't work at all, or delays by a very small amount.



If needed, I can provide examples of my setups. Any help would be appreciated.

[Wilq]

Originally posted by Ranylyn:

Starting at the Altina fight at the Imperial Villa every single boss has given me at least one game over when they break out an S-Craft that oneshots my entire team. EVERY boss. On NORMAL. And this isn't new to that point of the game, just that it's been CONSISTENT since then. It happened in CS1, as well. Now, I could be getting trolled by memelords, but I kind of doubt it - I really do think that I might just be missing something.

It usually depends what party you have. My party was Rean/Alisa/Fie/Laura with backup of Emma and Jusis. In my case when I didn't predict that boss will execute his/her S-craft (yes, you can predict and take some countermeasures) all what happened is, in worst case scenario, my party have been one-shoted, Alisa got ressurected with full HP/MP/CP she casts Seraphic RIng and we are back to be fully-healed. Since most of this S-Crafts are not All Area (with couple exceptions) it is most likely that not everybody got KO-ed, since I usually spread my party, so I simply swap Emma in and she casts Seraphic Ring. The other thing you can do is simply taunt boss to use S-Craft on Alisa by simply using hers just before. There are many, many other tactics you could use but I am telling you how I beat most bosses in this game ;)

[Walke_893]

Okay, so this may end up being a long post so I'll try to cover just the important points for now and cover other things as you bring them up.

Firstly, the reason why people say that CS 1+2 are the easiest games in the Trails series so far boils down to two main reasons:

1. Familiarity with the core battle system from previous experiences
2. Exploitation of the differences within the CS sub series

In regards to point 1, the battle system of all the Trails games are fundamentally the same since Sky and as such any experience can be carried forward. Your crucial points list is testament to the things you will just naturally learn and is also the foundation to some more complex concepts gameplay wise.

Another aspect of this is that the CS games have more relatable parallels to other RPGs which make it easier for newcomers to transfer skills. For example, CP regen in CS games are higher compared to Sky. This results in more CP during any one battle thus the cost trade off for Crafts is more flexible. i.e. you end up using more crafts.

This leads on to point 2. The differences in the CS games make it so that the player actually has more options during battle compared to Sky. As stated earlier, more CP means more craft usage. Another aspect of this is the generally more powerful crafts accessible earlier in the game compared to Sky.

There is a whole lot of different aspects that can be basically be summed up as power creep for the player, which results in obscenely high damage numbers and complete shut down of enemies.

This is where the trouble actually lies. This power creep results in circumstances which make it possible for players to end a boss battle without the boss getting a single turn. Where normal encounters are nothing more than an exercise in repetition.

As a counter to this, the developers chose to inflate HP numbers, and increase damage to insane levels. Effectively, game balance is out of whack. This gets worse on higher difficulties.

Thus where the split in opinion lies. If you understand these differences, then you learn to exploit broken mechanics. If you don't yet understand this, then you will face difficulty spikes until you do.

Of course, this does not take into account actual preparation a player takes into regard. If you play whilst doing the bare minimum, then the game will be harder for it. e.g. Many players will always focus on the same set of characters since it is too cost prohibitive to fully equip everyone. Thus you skew your experience where some characters are far too strong compared to less used ones.

[Walke_893]

Just as an add on to the post, in regards to AT Delay. The reason it is broken is not due to the low efficacy of AT Delay on bosses, but rather how the developers programmed the game to calculate AT Delay.

The game calculates AT Delay proc chance seperately for each alternative source of delay present. So say you use Rean's Arc Slash only, then the one source of AT Delay is calculated once against the enemies % efficacy.

However if you stack more sources of AT Delay, from impede, MQs, Acc, crafts, etc, what results is that for each new source, a seperate calculation for efficacy is done. As long as one goes through, the cumulative AT Delay value is then applied.

In math form: 1 - ((1-x)^n)
where: x = % efficacy to AT Delay (in decimal form)
n = number of sources of AT Delay

Thus, the higher n is, the higher the % chance to inflict AT Delay.

[Mizufluffy]

I played CS I on normal and because it felt too easy I decided to try CS II on hard. I avoided nightmare because I wasn't sure how huge spike that would be in difficulty but the very least hard difficulty wasn't, for the most part, nearly as hard as I had hoped it would be.

One of few battles where I remember having trouble with and had several, at least two or three, game overs was when I had to use clearly underleveled party members with bad equipment because I hadn't prepared them for a battle despite of game's warnings. I can't really blame anyone but myself for making it harder on myself than it needed to be.

A few of the reasons why I think the game was surprisingly easy:
1) Status effects and similar things, including AT Delay, are generally speaking really easy to get and inflict on most enemies (compared to how it was in the Trails in the Sky). Sure, bosses have resistances or immunities to most if not all of them but it is still one reason why I feel like game is easy.
2) CP regeneration speed. The amount of CP you can regenerate with items, attacks, buffs from crafts and arts is just ridiculous. If you get a good start in a battle then you should not be able to run out of CP during a battle very easily.
3) OP characters. For example Fie in evade build or Laura's S-Crafts with full CP and buffed STR, even more so with a quartz that gives double damage from the first attack.
4) Additional emergency tools the game gives the player. For example the one that recovers HP / MP / CP, gives three turns to player, makes arts instantly casted and so on.

Also, if you play a long time with the same party then you naturally figure out how to defeat certain kind of opponents so at some point it doesn't really matter what the enemy throws at you because after seeing it once you already know how to counter it in one way or another.

I'm not going to say the whole playthrough was a piece of cake but until very late into the game and even then only for a very few boss fights I didn't really have much trouble with the enemies. I almost regret I didn't go for nightmare for my first playthrough.

[butterbattle22]

Originally posted by Ranylyn:

Starting at the Altina fight at the Imperial Villa every single boss has given me at least one game over when they break out an S-Craft that oneshots my entire team. EVERY boss. On NORMAL.

It seems like nobody else actually addressed this part of your post specifically, which is surprising since it seems rather odd to me, and you already have a decent grasp on the game mechanics.

I actually haven't played on normal, so I can't speak to it, but even on hard and nightmare, there were only a couple bosses that could come close to "oneshotting." Since you mentioned Altina as a specific example, I'm actually at a loss......because I don't recall Altina's S-break as being particularly threatening. I mean, when you say she "oneshots" your team, you obviously mean from near full health, right? An Altina that can do that on normal mode would be a bug, but not any bug I've ever heard of. Can anyone else comment on this?

[butterbattle22]

Originally posted by Ranylyn:

- Speed. I know about Speed, Action Quartz, and all that good stuff. Admittedly, my first time through CS1, I didn't see a big difference at first with the early Action Quartz and I started to think it wasn't as important as in Sky, but I learned my mistake later on.

- 200 CP. Yeah, I know 200 CP increases the power of the S-Craft. (I also know that if there's a critical on the turn order, timing your S-Break for it is big.)

- Buff Stacking. Motivate + La Forte = a longer lasting (3 for Motivate, 5 for La Forte) and stronger buff, for example. I actually DIDN'T know this in CS1 since I was playing on a low-res TV and couldn't even make out all the buff/debuff icons, but I've since learned about it in CS2. It can make a difference.

- AT Delay and ailments and such. Yes, I know AT Delay CAN be good... WHEN the Delay Efficacy isn't low! I've heard a lot of people talk about how obscenely broken it is, but that can't be it when many enemies/bosses have significant resistance to delay. It either doesn't work at all, or delays by a very small amount.

Let's see....

Positioning? Most S-crafts aren't target all. A lot of them attack in a line. On harder modes, I'm actually more likely to take a turn just to reposition someone.

Chrono burst and overdrive. Also super overpowered.

Shield. Elliot casts shield. Enemy uses S-craft. Profit.

Pairing delay after arts casting reduction with character. Space for Alisa. Mirage for Emma. Etc.

[fiere210]

My main party for both games were Gaius as evasion tank with Falco, Jusis buffing with Noble command and casting arts when necessary, Emma nuking everyone with mirage arts (seriously, she was casting like 3 phantom phobias in a row) and Rean as a wild card doing a little bit of everything (in the second game a i put Murakumo on him and was getting some really nasty crits).

The main problem with this games is that it's either too easy when you know what to abuse, or too hard and punishing if you don't.

Stack AT Delay and the bosses are never going to get a turn. You dont even need to fully commit to it. I had Gaius with impede 2 only and his Delay Craft worked a decent amount of times on bosses.

Stack Evasion and they are never going to touch you

Use Adamantine shield/Crescent mirror and you are blocking like 90% of the S-crafts

Abuse Chrono Burst and Overdrive, instant double buff, healing, pure damage, etc.

SPEED. If you have to choose between boots that give you 7 speed and boots that give you 1000 def you chose SPEED

Abuse the Bells Quartz and Cast Quartz. My Waifu Emma had 95% cast reduction (Toval Accesory, Cast 2 and "Cast 3"), Mirage Bell and her initial MQ. She literally casted 3 to 5 Mirage arts IN A ROW.

Lost arts. Specially the one that overheals. That way you are not going to get one-shoted.

Thats all that comes to mind. I just finished my first run of this game in nightmare and didnt have much trouble (the first game was nightmare first run also, and my first trails game so I got rekt by a couple bosses but I kinda enjoyed it

Sorry if my english is not that good.

[Bison]

Originally posted by Ranylyn:

Starting at the Altina fight at the Imperial Villa every single boss has given me at least one game over when they break out an S-Craft that oneshots my entire team. EVERY boss. On NORMAL. And this isn't new to that point of the game, just that it's been CONSISTENT since then. It happened in CS1, as well. Now, I could be getting trolled by memelords, but I kind of doubt it - I really do think that I might just be missing something.

I will add a bit more information on this. You can generally expect late game boss S-Crafts to one shot most/all of your party members if you are not prepared. However, there are various methods of dealing with it.

Master Quartz
Angel - This is a common choice for surviving S-Crafts since it provides 1 (or 2) auto revive on death while refilling your HP/CP etc. Also provides Seraphic Ring at level 5.
Iron - My favorite choice since at level 4 or 5, you will be able to withstand any S-Craft thrown at you provided the character is at/near full health (required for the damage reduction bonus).

Crafts
Stealth - Only Fie has this one, but it will allow you to ignore any source of damage in the game. The only downside is that it requires you to either predict the S-Craft or maintain this status throughout the battle.
Platinum Shield - Jusis has this and it will provide you physical immunity, saving you from a lot of things really. However, if the attack carries an ALL CANCEL component, then it will not help.
Crescent Shell - Emma's version of Platinum Shield for magic/arts attacks.

There are arts that provide similar effects to Platinum Shield/Crescent Shell as well. However, a key recovery art that is used to quickly recover your party is Seraphic Ring (late game art). It's expensive, but worth having it on at least 1 member (the one that is expected to survive the S-Craft).

There is also the option of using status debuffs on the boss too, but I wouldn't exactly call it a reliable method of dealing with it since it may or may not proc when you need it.

I highly suggest running both Angel and Iron master quartz. Iron is mostly needed if you're fighting a very prolonged battle where you'll eat more than 2 S-Crafts, or if you want more peace of mind.

[Talithmara]

Sorry it took me so long to reply. I read everything, but as I was typing my reply, things came up. And then I was discussing Orbal Arts with someone who didn't believe me that a certain boss was able to do 45k damage and pierce through Magic Reflect... so I went to fight that boss again to find the Art name, ended up winning (Magic Evade on the Mirage MQ was clutch) and... yeah, uh, you know how it goes from there.

Anyways, although I haven't had a chance to capitalize on it yet, that Delay thing is really neat. I look forward to finding way to use that well - it might make replaying CS1 less tedious. Also, I actually forgot how useful Angel can be with Seraphic Ring (if you can handle the casting time!) I actually ended up replacing it to test a new MQ (Katze) and... yeah. Likewise, I basically ended up replacing Iron with Megalith (I was trying to not double up too hard on MQ elements, soooo....)

Apparently, though, I've also learned that another big problem was that I forgot about Cryptids. I found my first one when I was like level 70, when it was 100, so I noped away. I never did get around to going back to deal with those. My contacts mentioned that these things drop gems, which are where the Lost Arts come from. I had none of that. No overheal, no nothing. That was absolutely a big part of my frustration. And honestly, considering how this series' sidequests tie into the worldbuilding and are not only important but not an insulting waste of time like most other games... I still think it's a jerk move, but I understand balancing the endgame around having these - but having a point of no return when the game is balanced around that is also very mean.

That said, now that I'm in the Reverie Corridor, I've since decided to completely re-equip everyone and come up with some broken tactics, and I succeeded in that thanks to the Thor and Aries Master Quartz. I do feel like nothing in the game is a threat anymore, sure, but it took forever to reach that point, and you also don't get access to these in CS1 (Thor was Instructor Sara's personal MQ and could not be transferred, etc.) I don't get how CS1 is supposedly too easy, but meh. What matters is Chrono Burst + Wild Charge + Thor = Gaius can solo bosses once his turn comes up.

Thanks for all the advice, everyone. I'm already making sure to apply some of it.

[Wilq]

Originally posted by Ranylyn:

Also, I actually forgot how useful Angel can be with Seraphic Ring (if you can handle the casting time!)

Nah, It is quite easy to cast it before boss next turn since S-Crafts have huge delay. I remember that Emma in my party had short casting time (5 or something like that). You can always cast chrono burst or use overdrive if you need it right now.

If you don't want to use Seraphic Ring you can always go with Rean / Alisa (Angel MQ) / Fie / Machias (Iron MQ) S-Craft survival strategy.

Rean (Or anybody else) - Linked with Alisa (Auto-Thelas)
Alisa - Angel MQ
Fie - Stealth ability
Machias - Iron MQ

Originally posted by Ranylyn:

Thanks for all the advice, everyone. I'm already making sure to apply some of it.

No problem, You would be surprised with how many different strategies are there. It is fun to came up with your own solution instead of relying on some walkthroughs.

[butterbattle22]

While the lost arts are absurdly strong, I never felt like I needed them either.

There's enough options available that you have a buffet of potential broken team comps by the end of this game. My preference was that every single broken strategy started with Fie. Min/max, right? Speed is the most broken stat and evasion is the second most broken stat, so it feels like a natural choice to me. She always gets the best stuff and every single quartz and equipment has to have either speed (first priority) and/or evasion (second priority) on it with a few possible exceptions: zeus, black bell, and maaayyybe speed breaker, if I don't have anything else to use. Defense doesn't matter. For master quartz, I prefer Thor so I can abuse the mp regen and repeatedly cast chrono burst. However, I'll use any master quartz with a larger speed bonus depending on my mood. Since upgraded holy breath has speed on it, I can even attach that and be a backup healer. If you get tired of using her OP crafts, using black bell to cast soul blur 2423824332 times is pretty fun too.

After that, you want one good support caster. Out of class VII, Elliot, Emma, and Alisa are the best options, but you can sort of pull it off with almost anyone. The most important arts are adamantine shield, crescent mirror, and seraphic ring. If you don't have those yet, just use the best healing arts available. Then, the other characters don't even matter that much.

I'm partial to using Laura with Fie because of the Heimdallr chapter in CSI. In contrast to Fie, all of Laura's equips and quartz increase attack and give cp regen. Whenever her cp reaches 100, I immediately S-break, unless I see an important turn bonus about to come up, then I S-break there. When I do this, Laura almost never gets a regular turn because due to the long delay after the S-craft, between the overdrives, chrono bursts, following up whenever Fie unbalances or gets a crit (which is constantly), and other ridiculous things (that's guy's Emma casting 3 phantom phobias in a row), Laura reaches 100 cp before she can actually move again. If I actually get a Laura turn, she almost always self buffs attack or just repositions.

The only problem is they can't overdrive for most of the game on the first playthrough, but that doesn't matter either since neither of them are your primary caster, and the best use of overdrive is to cast things like shield and artemis tears.

[Justin_Brett]

How are you supposed to predict when they're going to use it besides 'I did a lot of damage, the game is probably going to rubber band me'? Their CP bar, assuming they have one, is invisible.

[Bison]

Generally you can expect an S-Craft to come whenever you take them under 50% health (most bosses that use S-Craft have this trigger, there's also a mini camera cue too). The other times will be somewhere around 70-80% hp, but it really depends on your damage output. This is generally after 3-4 boss turns, after that you probably won't see one again for a bit until the < 50% hp trigger. Outside of the < 50% trigger, it might take them like 7-10 turns or so before they use it again (somewhat of a guess, but this feels about right).

I guess you can say it's mostly a matter of experience and assuming you have battled them enough times to get a feel for when things happen. You can't guess it correctly all the time, but you can at least start to think, "I can expect an S-Craft soon, so I better put up my countermeasures or have my dedicated survivor topped off on HP."

They technically do have a CP bar, but you'll only ever see it if they land on a CP turn bonus. That being said, I'm not 100% sure if they follow CP rules for S-Craft.

[Wilq]

Originally posted by Bison:

Generally you can expect an S-Craft to come whenever you take them under 50% health (most bosses that use S-Craft have this trigger, there's also a mini camera cue too). The other times will be somewhere around 70-80% hp, but it really depends on your damage output. This is generally after 3-4 boss turns, after that you probably won't see one again for a bit until the < 50% hp trigger. Outside of the < 50% trigger, it might take them like 7-10 turns or so before they use it again (somewhat of a guess, but this feels about right).

I guess you can say it's mostly a matter of experience and assuming you have battled them enough times to get a feel for when things happen. You can't guess it correctly all the time, but you can at least start to think, "I can expect an S-Craft soon, so I better put up my countermeasures or have my dedicated survivor topped off on HP."

+1. I only add that you can use any move that deals lots of damage (S-Craft, Art, etc.) before boss turn to ensure that this predictions are right.

[Gearhart]

AT delay actually works as a strategy for most bosses from Altina onward. however you need to build characters for it Rean should always be built for Delay/Cancel as using Arc slash is pretty funny when you can fight one of the last bosses and not have it get a single turn. You can give Fie some AT delay as well and use her bullet cyclone skill as well. When it coes to AT delay the more people piling on with it the better it is.

A good party for that part of the game would be Rean/Fie/Laura always on the field and swapping Emma and Alisa with each other as needed.

Laura for pure attack and speed and give her the Domination quartz and if she gets first turn bust out first turn with Radiant Lion, if you can get someone to buff her before her turn or land on a ! crit turn its actually kind of disgusting how much dmg she can do.

Fie build as an evasion tank you can get 100% evade on her through quartz and gear and put her front and centre to get attention. with a secondary focus on AT delay/canceling

Emma is the magical version of Laura build her to kick ass and not give a ♥♥♥♥ about names with arts

Alisa to be honest i just really use cp regen on the rest of the party and tend to swap her out until it wears off then reapply

Rean as stated build him AT delay and canceling arts/crafts

Rean and Fie pretty much all fight hit the boss with Arc Slash and Bullet Cyclone Respectively. Laura hammers the ♥♥♥♥ out of people with her sword until she can unoad her S craft. Emma blows people up with magic and Alisa keeps the cp flowing on everybody.

The only fight that is a true exception and does contain a certain ammount of luck is when you Face McBurn. If you get unlucky he will 1 shot your entire party from 100% health