[SPOILERS] Sweet Aidios, that Towa Scene in the Epilogue!

[Cursedsword02]

I haven't cried at anything in a game yet, but ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ did the scene between Rean and Towa during the epilogue bring me close to it.

Just the way Rean finally breaks down and apologizes to Towa for Crow dying and Towa comforting him along with her voice quivering when she says 'okay' at the end just tugs at the heartstrings SO MUCH...just...GAH!

[Ellipsis]

Stabbey a écrit :

Jusis pretty much does have to go as the only one able to lead Kreuzen province, and Millium was only in Class VII on temp assignment anyway. There was a suggestion way back from the CS 1 prologue which suggests that 9 people is borderline for a class size, so with the class dropping to 8 people (well, 7 since Alisa has to leave as well), the class would be too small to continue anyway.

I won't speak for the others, as I have not seen them, but on Alisa's ending, if you talk to her in her dorm room the night before the last free day, she breaks down in tears and tells Rean she doesn't care about the Reinford group and wants to stay with him.

Rean gently reminds her that they talked about that (offscreen) and gives a fairly sensible argument that it wouldn't be fair to her if she sacrificed her goals just for his sake. She then admits that the Reinford group is still a pretty big mess and her mother and grandfather need all the help they can get.

It's a nice scene and I think it suggests that Rean was able to persuade everyone that he is okay - even if he actually isn't.

To be fair, that happens for every member of Class VII if you pick them as your final bonding partner, not just Alisa. They offer to stay and Rean says no.

[Stabbey]

Ellipsis a écrit :

To be fair, that happens for every member of Class VII if you pick them as your final bonding partner, not just Alisa. They offer to stay and Rean says no.

I assumed as much, I was just trying to push back against the notion (from a guy on the previous page) that everyone in Class VII were jerks for running out on Rean.

[Oguzhan]

Stabbey a écrit :

Ellipsis a écrit :

To be fair, that happens for every member of Class VII if you pick them as your final bonding partner, not just Alisa. They offer to stay and Rean says no.

I assumed as much, I was just trying to push back against the notion that everyone in Class VII were jerks for running out on Rean.

HUH? There is a notion like that? Why would there be. Class 7 while yes are friends, that doesn't mean that they can live their lives together until the end of time. Its like what Estelle said in 3rd, "We can't be together forever, that is why we need to give it our all and smile!". Btw that is like such a great life lesson. I love it.

Anyway back to class 7 , everyone in the class thas their own goals and responsibilities that they need to follow. They need real life experience and a school can only do so much (hell look at real life , a lot of big shot names didn't even finish school and thats just the known ones). So it makes sense that they would leave. Rean doesn't really have a goal right now considering what happened with his dad and Crossbell. He also missed a year soooo might as well stay.

[afterthought.btw]

Stabbey a écrit :

afterthought.btw a écrit :

The problem is that Class VII essentially abandons Rean for (generally) pretty crappy reasons when he is in a pretty horribile point in his life. Towa is the only person who appears to understand the state Rean is in and that he might need help.

Jusis pretty much does have to go as the only one able to lead Kreuzen province, and Millium was only in Class VII on temp assignment anyway. There was a suggestion way back from the CS 1 prologue which suggests that 9 people is borderline for a class size, so with the class dropping to 8 people (well, 7 since Alisa has to leave as well), the class would be too small to continue anyway.

I won't speak for the others, as I have not seen them, but on Alisa's ending, if you talk to her in her dorm room the night before the last free day, she breaks down in tears and tells Rean she doesn't care about the Reinford group and wants to stay with him.

Rean gently reminds her that they talked about that (offscreen) and gives a fairly sensible argument that it wouldn't be fair to her if she sacrificed her goals just for his sake. She then admits that the Reinford group is still a pretty big mess and her mother and grandfather need all the help they can get.

It's a nice scene and I think it suggests that Rean was able to persuade everyone that he is okay - even if he actually isn't.

Jusis and Millium are the only ones with good reasons, assuming that Osborne would really want to call Millium back (one would have thought that having someone close to Rean would be even more important), but there is no reason to suppose the class would be too small to continue. The small class size was only mentioned as regards the festival and them being limited as to what they could put on for it. But even if Class VII folds for some unknown reason, that doesn't mean they have to leave Thors. Rean isn't leaving, after all.

I've seen a decent amount of the endings, but as you mentioned Alisa, hers isn't coherent as a reason to leave the school. What expertise is she going to bring to the company that makes her have to return now? She hasn't even had a full year of studying under her belt. If anything Reinford would be better served with her finishing her scholastic term. It's also made very, very clear that this is for romantic reasons that she wants to stay.

Also, only one of the added endings can ever be 'canon' - so you are entirely allowed to speak for the others!

But this isn't just a specific criticism at one of the characters, it's a criticism at the whole group of them collectively.

I can buy some of Class VII having the emotional intelligence of a teaspoon or even just a blind spot on the issue. But all of them? Is it really plausible that Towa - a good friend, but not in Class VII - understands Rean well enough to see the state he is in, but none of Class VII do? Hell, most of the NPCs at the school seem to understand Rean well enough to see what is happening to him, and they have less than a quarter of the story. Go around talking to them in the final free day, and most of them have words of encouragement which show some understanding of his situation, and yet Class VII (who are supposed to revolve around him) don't?

My criticism of this stems mainly from their actions being out of character compared to what we have seen in the rest of the games. Elliot, Gaius, Emma, Jusis, Alisa, Fie all have moments that show they understand Rean well enough to not be easily fooled here. Indeed, given how Jusis' insight skewers Rean in Bareahard CSI, he would be more than aware of how Rean doesn't even think to ask for help even when he desperately needs it. Laura - being the chivalric knight - should particularly understand what Rean's position in Osborne's expansions would cost him.

Their characters have been built up well enough to make you think that a number of them would realise Rean's plight, even if some of them overlook it. That's the problem here. Because they don't, it means they come across as not actually caring about Rean.

My best friend is in a really rubbish position at the moment but I'm going to go to a music academy instead, or I'm going to apply to do politics out of the blue despite being too young for the course, or I'm going back to Nord despite the entirety of the past year vindicating my decision to go to Thors, or - well, you get the point.

Again, as said before, I understand why Falcom chose to do what they did, I just feel they made the wrong choice.

[Oguzhan]

afterthought.btw a écrit :

Stabbey a écrit :

Jusis pretty much does have to go as the only one able to lead Kreuzen province, and Millium was only in Class VII on temp assignment anyway. There was a suggestion way back from the CS 1 prologue which suggests that 9 people is borderline for a class size, so with the class dropping to 8 people (well, 7 since Alisa has to leave as well), the class would be too small to continue anyway.

I won't speak for the others, as I have not seen them, but on Alisa's ending, if you talk to her in her dorm room the night before the last free day, she breaks down in tears and tells Rean she doesn't care about the Reinford group and wants to stay with him.

Rean gently reminds her that they talked about that (offscreen) and gives a fairly sensible argument that it wouldn't be fair to her if she sacrificed her goals just for his sake. She then admits that the Reinford group is still a pretty big mess and her mother and grandfather need all the help they can get.

It's a nice scene and I think it suggests that Rean was able to persuade everyone that he is okay - even if he actually isn't.

Jusis and Millium are the only ones with good reasons, assuming that Osborne would really want to call Millium back (one would have thought that having someone close to Rean would be even more important), but there is no reason to suppose the class would be too small to continue. The small class size was only mentioned as regards the festival and them being limited as to what they could put on for it. But even if Class VII folds for some unknown reason, that doesn't mean they have to leave Thors. Rean isn't leaving, after all.

I've seen a decent amount of the endings, but as you mentioned Alisa, hers isn't coherent as a reason to leave the school. What expertise is she going to bring to the company that makes her have to return now? She hasn't even had a full year of studying under her belt. If anything Reinford would be better served with her finishing her scholastic term. It's also made very, very clear that this is for romantic reasons that she wants to stay.

Also, only one of the added endings can ever be 'canon' - so you are entirely allowed to speak for the others!

But this isn't just a specific criticism at one of the characters, it's a criticism at the whole group of them collectively.

I can buy some of Class VII having the emotional intelligence of a teaspoon or even just a blind spot on the issue. But all of them? Is it really plausible that Towa - a good friend, but not in Class VII - understands Rean well enough to see the state he is in, but none of Class VII do? Hell, most of the NPCs at the school seem to understand Rean well enough to see what is happening to him, and they have less than a quarter of the story. Go around talking to them in the final free day, and most of them have words of encouragement which show some understanding of his situation, and yet Class VII (who are supposed to revolve around him) don't?

My criticism of this stems mainly from their actions being out of character compared to what we have seen in the rest of the games. Elliot, Gaius, Emma, Jusis, Alisa, Fie all have moments that show they understand Rean well enough to not be easily fooled here. Indeed, given how Jusis' insight skewers Rean in Bareahard CSI, he would be more than aware of how Rean doesn't even think to ask for help even when he desperately needs it. Laura - being the chivalric knight - should particularly understand what Rean's position in Osborne's expansions would cost him.

Their characters have been built up well enough to make you think that a number of them would realise Rean's plight, even if some of them overlook it. That's the problem here. Because they don't, it means they come across as not actually caring about Rean.

My best friend is in a really rubbish position at the moment but I'm going to go to a music academy instead, or I'm going to apply to do politics out of the blue despite being too young for the course, or I'm going back to Nord despite the entirety of the past year vindicating my decision to go to Thors, or - well, you get the point.

Again, as said before, I understand why Falcom chose to do what they did, I just feel they made the wrong choice.

There is not much for them to do for Rean. The guy doesn't accept anyone staying with him (every high bond dialogue with every character at the end), and you can't help a person who doesn't want it. Might as well go in their own seperate ways and become a person who might be able help eachother when the time comes. They also do their best while still at school. Helping him study , have their last time on school as enjoyable as possible.

Real life experience is the best kind of experience. So for all of them (for example Alisa) starting their pursuit of their goal is the right thing to do. Best way to learn how to handle a company like Reinford? WORK UNDER THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN DOING IT FOR HOW LONG.
Also one last thing, I think with the exception of Rean (who was in crossbell working) everyone graduated. Like I just checked the wikia and it says after graduating with characters like Fie and all.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

afterthought.btw a écrit :

Stabbey a écrit :

Jusis pretty much does have to go as the only one able to lead Kreuzen province, and Millium was only in Class VII on temp assignment anyway. There was a suggestion way back from the CS 1 prologue which suggests that 9 people is borderline for a class size, so with the class dropping to 8 people (well, 7 since Alisa has to leave as well), the class would be too small to continue anyway.

I won't speak for the others, as I have not seen them, but on Alisa's ending, if you talk to her in her dorm room the night before the last free day, she breaks down in tears and tells Rean she doesn't care about the Reinford group and wants to stay with him.

Rean gently reminds her that they talked about that (offscreen) and gives a fairly sensible argument that it wouldn't be fair to her if she sacrificed her goals just for his sake. She then admits that the Reinford group is still a pretty big mess and her mother and grandfather need all the help they can get.

It's a nice scene and I think it suggests that Rean was able to persuade everyone that he is okay - even if he actually isn't.

Jusis and Millium are the only ones with good reasons, assuming that Osborne would really want to call Millium back (one would have thought that having someone close to Rean would be even more important), but there is no reason to suppose the class would be too small to continue. The small class size was only mentioned as regards the festival and them being limited as to what they could put on for it. But even if Class VII folds for some unknown reason, that doesn't mean they have to leave Thors. Rean isn't leaving, after all.

I've seen a decent amount of the endings, but as you mentioned Alisa, hers isn't coherent as a reason to leave the school. What expertise is she going to bring to the company that makes her have to return now? She hasn't even had a full year of studying under her belt. If anything Reinford would be better served with her finishing her scholastic term. It's also made very, very clear that this is for romantic reasons that she wants to stay.

Also, only one of the added endings can ever be 'canon' - so you are entirely allowed to speak for the others!

But this isn't just a specific criticism at one of the characters, it's a criticism at the whole group of them collectively.

I can buy some of Class VII having the emotional intelligence of a teaspoon or even just a blind spot on the issue. But all of them? Is it really plausible that Towa - a good friend, but not in Class VII - understands Rean well enough to see the state he is in, but none of Class VII do? Hell, most of the NPCs at the school seem to understand Rean well enough to see what is happening to him, and they have less than a quarter of the story. Go around talking to them in the final free day, and most of them have words of encouragement which show some understanding of his situation, and yet Class VII (who are supposed to revolve around him) don't?

My criticism of this stems mainly from their actions being out of character compared to what we have seen in the rest of the games. Elliot, Gaius, Emma, Jusis, Alisa, Fie all have moments that show they understand Rean well enough to not be easily fooled here. Indeed, given how Jusis' insight skewers Rean in Bareahard CSI, he would be more than aware of how Rean doesn't even think to ask for help even when he desperately needs it. Laura - being the chivalric knight - should particularly understand what Rean's position in Osborne's expansions would cost him.

Their characters have been built up well enough to make you think that a number of them would realise Rean's plight, even if some of them overlook it. That's the problem here. Because they don't, it means they come across as not actually caring about Rean.

My best friend is in a really rubbish position at the moment but I'm going to go to a music academy instead, or I'm going to apply to do politics out of the blue despite being too young for the course, or I'm going back to Nord despite the entirety of the past year vindicating my decision to go to Thors, or - well, you get the point.

Again, as said before, I understand why Falcom chose to do what they did, I just feel they made the wrong choice.

Fantasy friendships are not representative of real life friendships.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb1m0s2Zq0Q

They do care about Rean, but you'd be hard pressed to find someone who would be willing to put aside their job, their family, their aspirations, their dreams indefinitely for the sake of their friend. If you have found such a friend, that I am sincerely jealous of you.

As for Alisa, I'd argue that her ending was coherent. She is the heir to the family company, and she's going to need help settling in as it's new CEO. A young, 17 year old woman like Alisa who studied at a community college (for half a year) isn't going to be able to assume responsibility of a mega corporation and swim. She's going to sink, which is why she needs to go home and learn the ropes with Gwyn and Irina guiding here. That's why she's leaving.

[caldona]

Have i read the story wrong? I tought the others graduadet, and rean was to long absent with war trouble and must repat the year like crow nearly (Thors ia a only 2 year school after all)

So they dont "leave him early" school is over so they move on to their next point in life. Only his mate would just stay with him in this little town when he cant attend to scholl anymore witch is covered in the endings.

[Gambio]

caldona a écrit :

Have i read the story wrong? I tought the others graduadet, and rean was to long absent with war trouble and must repat the year like crow nearly (Thors ia a only 2 year school after all)

So they dont "leave him early" school is over so they move on to their next point in life. Only his mate would just stay with him in this little town when he cant attend to scholl anymore witch is covered in the endings.

Actually no, CSI starts at March 1204 and the story ends at March 1205. So only one Year passed in ingame time

[caldona]

Yeah but they putted extra effort in the remaing time to cover up the lost time of the year when the school was occupied with extra lessons, only Rean wasn´t able to attend because he was needed in the war during that time.

edit: Sorry it seems i am really wrong, both games togehter just cover 1 year. But it seems in Machia´s bonus ending it says they are really graduating early. I will confirm it later and edit or post again.

[Stabbey]

I think one reason for the year-early graduation instead of going "two years later" is exemplified by the prologue of CS 2. The proglogue refers to a lot of events which were never shown in-game, only on the Drama CD for CS 1. If Class VII were to have a full second year, that should mean a full second year of field studies as well, which would also need to have been referred to later on (or I guess they could have done with "they were all really boring and nothing of note happened").

[afterthought.btw]

oguz.gungor96 a écrit :

There is not much for them to do for Rean. The guy doesn't accept anyone staying with him (every high bond dialogue with every character at the end), and you can't help a person who doesn't want it. Might as well go in their own seperate ways and become a person who might be able help eachother when the time comes. They also do their best while still at school. Helping him study , have their last time on school as enjoyable as possible.

Real life experience is the best kind of experience. So for all of them (for example Alisa) starting their pursuit of their goal is the right thing to do. Best way to learn how to handle a company like Reinford? WORK UNDER THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN DOING IT FOR HOW LONG.
Also one last thing, I think with the exception of Rean (who was in crossbell working) everyone graduated. Like I just checked the wikia and it says after graduating with characters like Fie and all.

You seem to be under the misapprehension that they completed their school term. They haven't. Thors lasts for two years - they've been there one year - with a huge chunk of it spent fighting the civil war).

Also, the idea that no-one needs schooling but they should all get REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE IN ALL CAPS is nonsense.

There is a reason all successful countries have education systems.

[afterthought.btw]

Val the Moofia Boss a écrit :

Fantasy friendships are not representative of real life friendships.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb1m0s2Zq0Q

They do care about Rean, but you'd be hard pressed to find someone who would be willing to put aside their job, their family, their aspirations, their dreams indefinitely for the sake of their friend. If you have found such a friend, that I am sincerely jealous of you.

As for Alisa, I'd argue that her ending was coherent. She is the heir to the family company, and she's going to need help settling in as it's new CEO. A young, 17 year old woman like Alisa who studied at a community college (for half a year) isn't going to be able to assume responsibility of a mega corporation and swim. She's going to sink, which is why she needs to go home and learn the ropes with Gwyn and Irina guiding here. That's why she's leaving.

Nice strawman. I'm not expecting them to put aside their job, family, aspirations etc. indefinitely Either address the point, or don't respond at all, please.

They all suddenly choose to leave (the majoity of them for paper thin reasons) half way through their allotted time at school in a specific moment when Rean is going through a crisis.

What about that is remotely close to what you claim I am saying?

Also, where on earth do you get the idea that Alisa is going to immediately become the new CEO? Or at least soon enough that one year makes such a vital difference here. Or that academic knowledge isn't useful in order to be a CEO - particularly in an 'information' field (Reinford's business is massively linked to the Roer Institute of Technology).

[afterthought.btw]

caldona a écrit :

Yeah but they putted extra effort in the remaing time to cover up the lost time of the year when the school was occupied with extra lessons, only Rean wasn´t able to attend because he was needed in the war during that time.

edit: Sorry it seems i am really wrong, both games togehter just cover 1 year. But it seems in Machia´s bonus ending it says they are really graduating early. I will confirm it later and edit or post again.

They are graduating early - but that is because all Class VII other than Rean decide to quit. (Rean isn't graduating early, nor are any of the other first years. Speak to any of the first years in clubs at the end and they'll talk about how they are taking over the clubs next year.) There's not really any information given as to why the school is allowing them to do this, or how exactly they manage to compress over a year's worth of learning into a few short weeks. That's just another thing that doesn't make sense about it all.

Look, as I said before, I understand why they did all of this, I'm just not a fan of it.

Basically, Falcom did this because they wanted to draw a line under Class VII, and move the story on. Given that the first year has taken two games, were the rest of the arc to take place in a second year at Thors it would get very repetitive, and the vast majority of interpersonal conflict within the group has already been told. As a result, they were never going to want to show Year 2 on screen.

They decided that they had to draw a concrete line under it, so manufactured the entirety of Class VII suddenly cutting their time in school short by half. This ranged from the plausible - Jusis - to the slight, er, less than plausible - Elliot, Gaius. (This also explains the final boss - the game straight up tells you that much.)

In the same way that CSI ended in a cliffhanger, CSII is designed to have a very defined end.

That's completely understandable and reasonable storytelling. My contention is the way they did this (everyone in Class VII deciding to quit en masse) was the wrong way to go about doing it and harms the character development.

To get back to the comment of mine that sparked this all off, the comment that Towa is a better friend than the rest of Class VII was said flippantly, precisely because the Epilogue contradicts the rest of the story. Based upon what we know of them, Towa shouldn't have been the only one of Rean's friends who could understand the despair Rean was feeling. Plenty of Class VII should have been alive to his feelings (but instead they decide to bugger off...).

Personally, I would have gone for a soft end, and trust that the player has no problem with the assumption that nothing major like another civil war happened in their second year. Two years are being skipped anyway, so all of them have time to get to where they need to be for CSIII and CS IV once they graduate. It may not have been ideal, but it wouldn't have undermined the previous character building.

[Oguzhan]

afterthought.btw a écrit :

caldona a écrit :

Yeah but they putted extra effort in the remaing time to cover up the lost time of the year when the school was occupied with extra lessons, only Rean wasn´t able to attend because he was needed in the war during that time.

edit: Sorry it seems i am really wrong, both games togehter just cover 1 year. But it seems in Machia´s bonus ending it says they are really graduating early. I will confirm it later and edit or post again.

They are graduating early - but that is because all Class VII other than Rean decide to quit. (Rean isn't graduating early, nor are any of the other first years. Speak to any of the first years in clubs at the end and they'll talk about how they are taking over the clubs next year.) There's not really any information given as to why the school is allowing them to do this, or how exactly they manage to compress over a year's worth of learning into a few short weeks. That's just another thing that doesn't make sense about it all.

Look, as I said before, I understand why they did all of this, I'm just not a fan of it.

Basically, Falcom did this because they wanted to draw a line under Class VII, and move the story on. Given that the first year has taken two games, were the rest of the arc to take place in a second year at Thors it would get very repetitive, and the vast majority of interpersonal conflict within the group has already been told. As a result, they were never going to want to show Year 2 on screen.

They decided that they had to draw a concrete line under it, so manufactured the entirety of Class VII suddenly cutting their time in school short by half. This ranged from the plausible - Jusis - to the slight, er, less than plausible - Elliot, Gaius. (This also explains the final boss - the game straight up tells you that much.)

In the same way that CSI ended in a cliffhanger, CSII is designed to have a very defined end.

That's completely understandable and reasonable storytelling. My contention is the way they did this (everyone in Class VII deciding to quit en masse) was the wrong way to go about doing it and harms the character development.

To get back to the comment of mine that sparked this all off, the comment that Towa is a better friend than the rest of Class VII was said flippantly, precisely because the Epilogue contradicts the rest of the story. Based upon what we know of them, Towa shouldn't have been the only one of Rean's friends who could understand the despair Rean was feeling. Plenty of Class VII should have been alive to his feelings (but instead they decide to bugger off...).

Personally, I would have gone for a soft end, and trust that the player has no problem with the assumption that nothing major like another civil war happened in their second year. Two years are being skipped anyway, so all of them have time to get to where they need to be for CSIII and CS IV once they graduate. It may not have been ideal, but it wouldn't have undermined the previous character building.

But it hasn't underminded their previous character developement. Even when they tell they want to stay with Rean , he doesn't want it. You are not helping out a guy who doesn't want it. And even then they do their best to tell Rean that it was needed otherwise the conflict would have been way bigger. They give him study notes so that he can study too.
They all have their own future and goals to focus on. So leaving the school early is something they need to do. Its not like they are happy about it. Hell Millium actually cries.

[ZWabbit]

Class VII are not "leaving" Thors early, they're graduating early. They completed the second year's worth of studies on an accelerated timetable to be able to do so. That being said, the explanation for why the others are leaving is, for the majority of them, handled exceedingly poorly in the ending. It's not just Jusis and Millium that have legitimate reasons to leave, Laura does as well, but it's not properly explained until CS3. Gaius on the other hand is obviously worried about his family, considering a war seems in the offing between Calvard and Erebonia, and the Highlands would be a major theater.

That all being said, we still could have done without the epilogue. The characters behave in such an emotionally tone-deaf manner compared to the situation they find themselves in that it's not hard to wonder where the blazes the Class VII we spent 2 games with went.