This game has HUGE issues!

[D.A.R.K.]

First of all, sorry for the TL;DR comment, but I'm a guy that loves and work with Ciphers, Cryptography and Encryptation... That's why I did think this game would be awesome the first time I saw the trailer. Secondly I'm from Brazil, my Enlgish isn't the best one, but I hope you do understand what I'm saying.

I'm playing the game and I find 2 problems with the game, only in the first Chamber, most precisely Puzzle 06, Puzzle 07 and Puzzle 08. Let me explain what's wrong with the game and why Devs should think better when doing those kind of "Riddles".



The first thing we see when we enter the first Chamber it's an annotation telling us which kind of situation we will deal there, in this case, Steganography. Steganography, as the game tell us, it's a way to create hidden messages without encryptaion, you just place the message there in a way you can find it by just taking a long look and thinking a little, basicaly perception.

In the game we can read that: "...Steganography is weak from of cryptography as the secret message is not enciphered and relies entirely on its ability to go unnoticed. Once a hidden message is suspect it can usually be revealed without the need of any special techniques, given enought time and scrutiny."

That's true, the way you do Steganography it's a poor and unsafe way to hidden a message, that's why it's "easy" to find once you stare and think enought, there's no keys, no ciphers and no techniques you NEED to use to find the message.

We can see that by looking at Puzzle 01 to Puzzle 05, the player needs only attantion and perception to find the selution to each Steganography.

Now we hit the wrong part of the Chamber... Since it's a Steganography Chamber, we shouldn't deal with any kind of Cipher, but at the other side of the wall we see the Morse Cipher and the Binary Cipher [Morse Code and Binary Code] on it, meaning we will probably use that on a Puzzle...

This make no sense, since it's a Paradox, and Puzzle 06, 07 and 08 are the exemple of that. Puzzle 07 it's the least wrong one, even knowing it's NOT a Steganography, we have the Morse Cipher on the wall showing us there's a way to answer that, but...

Puzzle 06 has a big issue since players needs A1Z26 [no mentioned] to solve it, people that doesn't know that exist will not find the answer. A1Z26 it's the name of the CIPHER [yeah, it's a Cipher] that changes letters and numbers by place it in the same spot. A = 1; B = 2; C = 3...

Poeple that doesn't know it should solve the Puzzle using A1Z26 will try a lot of things as math, time and psalm from bible to solve it without know they will not get it.

Even so... Puzzle 08 it's the worst, not only for using Ciphers that doesn't apply to "Steganography" but for using the Cipher WRONGLY. Puzzle 08 uses 2 methods to solve it. First the Binary that we can see on the wall and then A1Z26, the issue there is that both methods are typed wrongly way and anyone that tryes to do the right way will never find the solution.

Binary it's a number linguistic that uses 0 and 1 to convert numbers and letters to "machine language", one characteristic of Binary is that the way you type a Binary number it's precise, in groups of 4 because of bits and bytes.

That way, anytime you want to type a Binary number, you have to type it in 4, 8, 12, 16 and so on numbers. As exmeple I will use the number 23. The right way to type 23 is 00010111. Even math saying 0 at right it's useless, the right way to type in Binary it's that because of the "4s"

If you type 10111 to 23 people will understand but it's the same as you type U for YOU and R for ARE. Puzzle 08 uses that wrongly way to type when divide the puzzle in 5 pieces of 5 letters, it shouldn't, it should be 6 pieces with 4 letters and 1 letter away.

After solving that wrong part of the puzzle, Puzzle 08 does another wrong move by using A1Z26 saying A = 0 instead of A = 1; There are 26 letters in the alphabet, even in "machine language" 0 means First and 1 means Second, in real world 1 means First and 2 means Second.

That way, to solve Puzzle 08 [in Steganography Chamber] people needs to do wrongly 2 different Ciphers to find the right answer, something that shouldn't happend, doesn't matter what, because we are dealing with Ciphers and if you miss one letter or one number, you can't decipher it.




Now I'm wondering if the next Chamber, the Transposition one will have those kind of Puzzles where people can't solve it because you need to do wrong to find the right answer.

[archiver213]

wow, was really looking forward to this, but with your expllanation, i'll steer clear now.

[Blank]

Yeah, I remember learning about A1Z26 (I only recently started cryptography weeks before) but I didn't figure that it would be used, first looking it's a range of times; first, I thought that it was a number sequence, that wasn't it, then I used the hint and got 8 = H , well, I still had completely forgotten about A1Z26, so I even tried to say "well, 8 has 2 parallel lines, and the middle line could be turned as a result to get H , but that didn't work. It wasn't until I pointed it out to my friend that he said "hey, didn't you tell me about this earlier? It's CHRONO

I agree with what you wrote, and I do kind of wish the game made it a little more easier with it's explanations, first chamber was whatever, second one was the one that fell flat for me, namely the second one.

[D.A.R.K.]

Originally posted by 「𝓛𝓜」:

Yeah, I remember learning about A1Z26 (I only recently started cryptography weeks before) but I didn't figure that it would be used, first looking it's a range of times; first, I thought that it was a number sequence, that wasn't it, then I used the hint and got 8 = H , well, I still had completely forgotten about A1Z26, so I even tried to say "well, 8 has 2 parallel lines, and the middle line could be turned as a result to get H , but that didn't work. It wasn't until I pointed it out to my friend that he said "hey, didn't you tell me about this earlier? It's CHRONO

I agree with what you wrote, and I do kind of wish the game made it a little more easier with it's explanations, first chamber was whatever, second one was the one that fell flat for me, namely the second one.

Cryptography isn't an easy thing, this game being "hard" it's something I'm use to and it's fine, since you need to decryp a message, but that's not my point, there's Puzzles people can't solve because they are wrong, it's like people using Atbash Cipher by saying A = Y instead of A = Z.

If you're gonna do a Cipher, you need to have logic in your Cipher. Caesar Cipher, for exemple, makes letter changes position by rotating it 3 letters. That measn A = X; B = Y; C = Z; and when you will decrypt the message, you need to use the same patter.

You can go a new patter, you can do YOUR Cipher, but you need to teach that Cipher to players or people will not be able to decryp the message. You don't need to show in the players face the key, but you need to hint how people will create a path to the key.

The problem with Puzzle 08 is that uses the wrongly way Binary and A1Z26. When I try the first time, I change the letters to Binary, but I organize in the right order, 4 by 4, because of that, one number stay out of the sequence, because of that I didn't continue to do because makes no sense, that's why I just stop to go on with Binary.

After I learn, I did it again and AGAIN I hit the wall by changing the numbers to A1Z26, but there's no 0 in A1Z26 because of that I ignore A1Z26 to try more methods and techniques... I couldn't find the answer by myself because the Puzzle was wrong, not because I did wrong.

This is frustranting, you took much time trying to solve a Puzzle to know at the end that you are right and the Puzzle was wrong, got it? Makes no sense, that's why I'm pissed with the game, they should pay a lot of attention with that.

I manage to unlock Chamber 3, but I didn't finish 100% Chamber 2 yet...

[stephen dedalus]

D.A.R.K. is way overthinking things. Nowhere binary specifies the need for extra zeros of padding (unless you need to fill in buffers bit by bit or your chunks must be of any specified size -- requiring to go '4 by 4' is not a universal rule), and nowhere an encryption should be expected to adhere to 'known rules.' So having the letter <-> number correspondence shift by one (as in 0-25) that is just fine and should juggle your brain cells a little bit. Expecting cryptography to be like crosswords (with rules set in stone) is a very wrong (and unrealistic!) approach.

[Blank]

Originally posted by D.A.R.K.:

snip

I'm aware it's not an easy thing, hence why I chose it, I've been interested in it for quite some time and only recently got into it, I was saying that their way of doing it felt kind of weird.

[D.A.R.K.]

Originally posted by stephen dedalus:

D.A.R.K. is way overthinking things. Nowhere binary specifies the need for extra zeros of padding (unless you need to fill in buffers bit by bit or your chunks must be of any specified size -- requiring to go '4 by 4' is not a universal rule), and nowhere an encryption should be expected to adhere to 'known rules.' So having the letter <-> number correspondence shift by one (as in 0-25) that is just fine and should juggle your brain cells a little bit. Expecting cryptography to be like crosswords (with rules set in stone) is a very wrong (and unrealistic!) approach.

You are wrong, cryptography follow rules, if you don't know.

Caesar Cipher, it rotates the letter 3 slots.
Atbash, changes the order to backwards. A =Z; B = Y;
A1Z26, changes letters and numbers to its value. A = 1; Z = 26;
Vigenere Cipher, follows a graphic table, where you need a key word to decrypt.
Freemason Cipher, follows the patter A to I, J to M, N to V and W to Z.

All Ciphers follow order and patter, that's why you need to know the KEY to decrypt a message, if you don't apply a rule, you can't decrypt the message because there's no way how to decrypt it.
If you don't apply a rule I can say: "CIPHER" and encrypt with "DODDOD" and hope you understand why the first D means C and the last D means R.

If you don't follow a rule, no one can understand, thus can't decrypt any message. The rule doesn't need to be pre-determinated as Atbash, Caesar and A1Z26; but you need to give us something to use as base to start to decrypt.

Even Steganography uses a rule... Using the game Puzzle as exemple... Could be letters that repeat itself, words mistyped, letters in Bold, words that SOUNDS numbers as FREE and FOR... Every single Chiper does follow a rule, and if there's no rule, there's no way to solve the crypt.

[stephen dedalus]

The only rules need to be set between sender and receiver. If you are decrypting, as in this game, you don't know the rules that sender and receiver are using. You have to figure them out. Sender and receiver are out to make your task harder, not simpler: for example, if they decide to use the correspondence A-Z <--> 26--1 more power to them, and it's up to you to figure out that they have reversed the usual scheme. Believe me, I am not wrong -- though I will leave you to your simpler world if that's a consolation for you.

[Finidi]

But there's no guaranteed he is using the A1Z26 cypher. There is a rule to that puzzle, and his rule/key is something you might be able to call a A0Z25 cypher, which is perfectly fine. The joy of solving these puzzles is finding out the key and applying it, not getting the key handed and performing a trick.

There are rules to these puzzles, but they might not be your predetermined rules.

[D.A.R.K.]

Originally posted by stephen dedalus:

The only rules need to be set between sender and receiver. If you are decrypting, as in this game, you don't know the rules that sender and receiver are using. You have to figure them out. Sender and receiver are out to make your task harder, not simpler: for example, if they decide to use the correspondence A-Z <--> 26--1 more power to them, and it's up to you to figure out that they have reversed the usual scheme. Believe me, I am not wrong -- though I will leave you to your simpler world if that's a consolation for you.

Originally posted by Finidi:

But there's no guaranteed he is using the A1Z26 cypher. There is a rule to that puzzle, and his rule/key is something you might be able to call a A0Z25 cypher, which is perfectly fine. The joy of solving these puzzles is finding out the key and applying it, not getting the key handed and performing a trick.

There are rules to these puzzles, but they might not be your predetermined rules.

You didn't understand... I didn't say we shouldn't discover the pattern, because this is what Encrypt means, people will not give to you the key for free, you need to understand and learn the pattern to see how that... BUT there's a pattern, there's a logical solution to the Puzzle.

Puzzle 08 doesn't use Binary, they use another system with 2 character because Binary is 4 by 4 and Puzzle 08 uses a 5 by 5, that's not Binary, that's something new that they apply the rule. Same with the A1Z26, Puzzle 08 doesn't uses A1Z25, it uses A0Z25, again, follow a rule and a logic.

The problem with that it's something that already exist and people will follow the rule that already exist to decrypt the message... Even more, with a new rule it creates a new whole of possibility to find answers that could be right but it's wrong.

In this game, the answer is BACON because it follows the 5 by 5, and A0Z25 rules... Also using that people can find tons of other logic answers that doesn't apply because they lead it to more answers instead of only one.

They can, and should, follow they own rules, but they can call those rules by names of rules that already exist... Even if you take a look at the wall you will see they split the Binary exemple in 2 sections of 4, THEY show us that Binary needs to split 4 by 4 but they change to another system that isn't Binary because they did split 5 by 5.

Plus... They didn't say we need to use A1Z26, but they show us A0Z25, that opens an interpretation for whatever you want to interpret... For exemple, instead of A0Z25 you can have A-10Z16. Can you apply A-10Z16 to the numbers there? Yeah, you can. Will you find a solution? No, you will find a scramble name.

Thus come the question.. That scramble name it's WRONG or it's just another step? See what I'm trying to show you here? The answer, using A0Z25 it's BACON it makes sense... But why did you think about A0Z25 instead of A-1Z24? Or any other tryies? The only rule that you have to find a 0 there.

A1Z26 doesn't have a 0 in it, because of that you can't use... You can use any other sequence if there's a 0 between A and Z, including A26Z0. Comes the situation, you find a scramble word that say nothing to you... You can conclude 2 things: Or you are wrong, you did something wrong back there; or you didn't finish yet, there's another step that will make that word turn into something understandable.

[stephen dedalus]

Binary is NOT '4 by 4' -- your thinking is way too rigid. Binary simply refers to powers of two corresponding to a position, and nothing in the binary system spells how long the numbers have to be, just as in the decimal system we don't have to go, say, '10 by 10' (imagine the hassle). If I want to write the binary sequence as 0, 1, 10, 11, 100, etc., then I am perfectly right -- it only depends on the setting, and that '4 by 4' thing only shows that you live by rules set in stone by whoever you learned it from: if you actually worked in cryptography you would know that you need to be more flexible, or else you fail -- simple as that.

The 5x5 in this case would simply be dictated by the length of the alphabet. If the alphabet were, say, 52 symbols long, then you would need 6-bit blocks to accommodate them. The idea of keeping bit blocks as short as they can be (5 in the case of this puzzle) is actually much more realistic than you think, since it leads to faster transmission times compared to all the padding zeros you would throw in. I'm done with this.

[D.A.R.K.]

Originally posted by stephen dedalus:

Binary is NOT '4 by 4' -- your thinking is way too rigid. Binary simply refers to powers of two corresponding to a position, and nothing in the binary system spells how long the numbers have to be, just as in the decimal system we don't have to go, say, '10 by 10' (imagine the hassle). If I want to write the binary sequence as 0, 1, 10, 11, 100, etc., then I am perfectly right -- it only depends on the setting, and that '4 by 4' thing only shows that you live by rules set in stone by whoever you learned it from: if you actually worked in cryptography you would know that you need to be more flexible, or else you fail -- simple as that.

The 5x5 in this case would simply be dictated by the length of the alphabet. If the alphabet were, say, 52 symbols long, then you would need 6-bit blocks to accommodate them. The idea of keeping bit blocks as short as they can be (5 in the case of this puzzle) is actually much more realistic than you think, since it leads to faster transmission times compared to all the padding zeros you would throw in. I'm done with this.

There's not that much zeros than you think.
Since you need only 3 to 1 more to complete the next bit. A block of 6-bit it's a block of 8 bit, actualy. The language uses 8 bits, or 16 bits. We have 32 bits and 64 bits today, there's no 62 bits on it.

[Matthew Brown]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacon%27s_cipher

[D.A.R.K.]

I will give you another exemple to see if you understand what I'm saying... When you use something that already exist, as all those Ciphers upthere, you need to follow they rules but you don't know which one it's next in the sequence.

You have a certain amount of steps until you find the answer, and you don't know if you really found the answer if you don't try to apply it in the solution. If it's not the answer, you need to do the next step.

This about a sequence of numbers that you use A1Z26 to find letters, scramble letters that makes no sense... You know you need another step but you don't know which method will you use... Even knowing, you could change the other, intead of go for Atbash and Caesar, you go Caesar then Atbash.

The only way you know that works it's at the end, to see if you find the message... The problem is you don't know how many neither which one Ciphers was used to decrypt this message... So you do a list of the most used Ciphers and try those one, let's say 4 different Ciphers.

With 4 different Ciphers we have 24 ways to decrypt the message, it just depend of the order you are using the Ciphers. How to know if you are doing right? At the end... If you try an order and, after using all 4 Ciphers, you find nothing, that means 2 things... Or that order is wrong or that message is wrong.

You can't just say the message is wrong until you try all 24 different solutions to it. REMEMBER I'm talking about using only 4 of tons of different Ciphers to decrypt a message... If people use it's own cipher, even worst if people use more than one of it's own cipher, how to know you will find the right answer?

Using A1Z26 it's right because people has that base. Using A0Z25 isn't wrong since makes sense... But using A0Z25 lead us to believe that could be any other Cipher that Devs did it, meaning we can't even find the solution because we will not know if we are doing wrong or if there's another step.

[D.A.R.K.]

Originally posted by stephen dedalus:

Binary is NOT '4 by 4' -- your thinking is way too rigid. Binary simply refers to powers of two corresponding to a position, and nothing in the binary system spells how long the numbers have to be, just as in the decimal system we don't have to go, say, '10 by 10' (imagine the hassle). If I want to write the binary sequence as 0, 1, 10, 11, 100, etc., then I am perfectly right -- it only depends on the setting, and that '4 by 4' thing only shows that you live by rules set in stone by whoever you learned it from: if you actually worked in cryptography you would know that you need to be more flexible, or else you fail -- simple as that.

The 5x5 in this case would simply be dictated by the length of the alphabet. If the alphabet were, say, 52 symbols long, then you would need 6-bit blocks to accommodate them. The idea of keeping bit blocks as short as they can be (5 in the case of this puzzle) is actually much more realistic than you think, since it leads to faster transmission times compared to all the padding zeros you would throw in. I'm done with this.

Originally posted by Matthew Brown:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacon%27s_cipher

As I told before, this is not Binary.

The problem is that you lead us to believe we should use Binary to solve the Puzzle 08,
as well as tell us Steganography has no Cipher included on it to solve [Puzzle 01 to 05],
also there's no other Puzzle that uses Binary, since Puzzle 06 uses A1Z26 and Puzzle 07 uses Morse Cipher.

[Matthew Brown]

Morse and Binary are encodings not ciphers, their purpose is not to obfuscate a message but to write it in another form, usually for transmission.