ONLY 1 save file??

[Logician]

seriously?..and i can't family share this game just says purchase again...

[Silver]

This game is an MMO. That means your save isn't just local, but also on Crema's servers. Allowing everyone a 2nd save slot would greatly increase the storage requirements on the server side. For the same reason there is also a limit of 10 Temdeck storage pages, totalling 300 Temtem. Both more save slots and more storage are features that have been requested before, with more storage still being a frequently requested feature. At the moment these do not seem to be economically feasible, but who knows what the future may bring.


Regarding family sharing, the fact this is an MMO is also relevant. If people could just family share, it would both result in people not buying the game but instead just playing on shared accounts while also consuming server resources and driving up expenses, and in people using the feature to make infinite alt accounts to farm the game (both driving up expenses and harming the in-game balance and economy)

In fact, the 2nd scenario already happened when family share was briefly enabled due to an error. Luckily it didn't last long.

You can't family share World of Warcraft either.

[Logician]

You do know how Steam's Family sharing works right? Only 1 person can be using that accounts game at any giving time, and if the original person's account where the game is located starts playing the game, it kicks the other user off meaning there wouldn't be infinite alt accounts breaking the game that's just silly. To the world of warcraft comment, yes. Yes you can family share world of warcraft. The only thing family sharing would do would entice more people to play and buy the game.

[Silver]

Originally posted by Logician:

You do know how Steam's Family sharing works right? Only 1 person can be using that accounts game at any giving time, and if the original person's account where the game is located starts playing the game, it kicks the other user off meaning there wouldn't be infinite alt accounts breaking the game that's just silly. To the world of warcraft comment, yes. Yes you can family share world of warcraft. The only thing family sharing would do would entice more people to play and buy the game.

You seem to misunderstand how it works.

The account is bound to the steam ID. A different Steam account gets a different game account and a different save.

Thus by creating multiple steam accounts people can abuse family sharing to get multiple game accounts.

This has literally been done before, so it's not silly at all.

No, you can't family share World of Warcraft, lol.

[Logician]

What's the point in making multiple game accounts if you cannot log into all of them at the same time? Essentially you're wasting time when it'd be more effective to just stay on one grinding for money if thats the biggest concern. This is just preventing more people from having access to a game that most likely would buy it. And yes, World of Warcraft can be family shared.

[Silver]

Sharing an account in WOW is a bannable offense.

And the point is farming starters which can't all be obtained yet and farming Anahir.

[Logician]

Yes it is, but no its not. If I had to create an account for my son for world of warcraft, then the account is both his and mine meaning we can both play off the same account, family sharing. But if i give it to a friend then yes its a straight bannable offence. And the starter thing yes I do see how that's an issue. But if that's the ONLY issue then i'd imagine fixing that would be a much more suitable option than taking away family sharing completely. Maybe have it so only 2 other accounts can family share the game thats it, that's the only thing i can think of for it right off the top of my head.

[Max La Menace]

so you're complaing because you want your family to play without buying the game ? you can always give them your account ID. then they will be able to connect and play the game.

[Marterion]

Remember. WoW and Temtem is a different companies, and that means different rules. One of the main reasons they disabled is to prevent evasion of bans from hackers and cheaters, so blame those for the reason of the feature to be disabled.
Yes you are allowed to share a WoW account only because its your son. https://eu.battle.net/support/en/article/13961

[UmbraAtrox]

Oh boy so much missinformation.

1. Storage isn't the reason there aren't multiple saves.

For comparison Temtem has 30 Tem per page and 10 Pages -> 300 Temtem
Pokemon blue has 20 Pkmn per box and 12 Boxes -> 240 Pkmn
Pokemon sword has 30 Pkmn per box and 32 Boxes -> 960 Pkmn

Pokemon Blue savefile size is 32kB or 0.032MB
Pokemon Sword savefile size is 1.6 MB
So how much space does it really take to store all them temtem....

Only one save makes sense from a Gameplay perspective. There is 1 world you can enter in the form of your playermodel. There is only one you, so there is only one saveslot. Just like it was in Pokemon which this game is inspired by.


2. To disable family sharing is the simple solution to prefent twinks and people trying exploits on Family share accounts. There is no other reason family share would be disabled. To many people abusing it in the past. And i'd imagine it's to risky for them to enable it and maybe have to worry people exploiting it.

Even if you argument with "but then people dont buy the game" -> Sure but you can never play together, and you can't even play at the same time, you can't even play while who ever shared the game plays a different game -> I'd imagine this would nudge people into buying the game so they can finally play together with their friend who shared them the game in the first place.

[Sol]

Originally posted by UmbraAtrox:

Oh boy so much missinformation.

1. Storage isn't the reason there aren't multiple saves.

For comparison Temtem has 30 Tem per page and 10 Pages -> 300 Temtem
Pokemon blue has 20 Pkmn per box and 12 Boxes -> 240 Pkmn
Pokemon sword has 30 Pkmn per box and 32 Boxes -> 960 Pkmn

Pokemon Blue savefile size is 32kB or 0.032MB
Pokemon Sword savefile size is 1.6 MB
So how much space does it really take to store all them temtem....

Only one save makes sense from a Gameplay perspective. There is 1 world you can enter in the form of your playermodel. There is only one you, so there is only one saveslot. Just like it was in Pokemon which this game is inspired by.


2. To disable family sharing is the simple solution to prefent twinks and people trying exploits on Family share accounts. There is no other reason family share would be disabled. To many people abusing it in the past. And i'd imagine it's to risky for them to enable it and maybe have to worry people exploiting it.

Even if you argument with "but then people dont buy the game" -> Sure but you can never play together, and you can't even play at the same time, you can't even play while who ever shared the game plays a different game -> I'd imagine this would nudge people into buying the game so they can finally play together with their friend who shared them the game in the first place.

On storage (YaW is the project lead): https://i.imgur.com/6mkqrtH.jpg, https://i.imgur.com/nN3BDtY.jpg

On family sharing: When it was enabled for a short amount of time, it was abused to hell and back. Taking the above into consideration, what happens when people can effectively make infinite accounts, for free, while additionally being able to infinitely do as many weeklies and daily as you want? It wasn't fair.

[UmbraAtrox]

Originally posted by TMTrainer:

On storage (YaW is the project lead): https://i.imgur.com/6mkqrtH.jpg, https://i.imgur.com/nN3BDtY.jpg

So you are telling just because they can't save temtems in a small savegame it's impossible to do? I doubt that. Maybe its hard for them to change the current system but that's on them.

How much data you really need per temtem? I dont know, but i can make an assumption.

Every temtem should have a index number. so we need to save that. There are 161 temtem At the moment but lets choose a variable which allows 10.000 different temtems to be indexed. So lets us a 2byte with unsigned int this allows for up to 65.535 Different TemTem to be indexed.

Then each temtem has 7 Stats + 7 Sv + 7TV

Normal Stats are fixed for each temtem so they dont go into the savegame.

SV goes from 1-50
so a 1 byte wide Int can store that.
TV goes from 0 - 1000
lets use a 2 byte wide unsigned int

Nickname: (3-10 char long)
10 x 1byte = 10 Bytes

OT: i don't know how long your tamer name can be lets assume it gets stored wasteful as a string instead of a tamer index number, also lets assume 20 chars long
20 x 1 byte = 20 bytes

Attacks:
For each slot 2 byte int allows for 65.535 attaccks to be indexed

Trait:
1 - 2 byte int (lets assume 2 for more traits)

I dont know if the place where it got caught gets saved too but lets assume it does so we use 2 x 2 byte int. first indexes island 2nd indexes place.

That's 2 + 1 + 2 + 10 + 20 + 2 + 2 + 4 = 43bytes per TemTem.

43bytes * 300 Temtem = 12.900 bytes or ~13 kb
43b * 10.000 = 43.000 bytes or ~420 kb

even if you assume i forgot half the stats and you double or even tripple the space needed per temtem its still a tiny file. Space isnt the issue.

Edit: I on purpose didnt incluse playerdata, etc. because those do not change based on the ammout of temtem stored. those you need once in any case. And you could probably cut anouther byte or two if you know the stats ranges.

[Silver]

Originally posted by UmbraAtrox:

even if you assume i forgot half the stats and you double or even tripple the space needed per temtem its still a tiny file. Space isnt the issue.

I'd defer to the knowledge of the actual developers on this matter rather than make assumptions about what data is stored and how. I seriously doubt you're more qualified to talk about the matter than they are.

[UmbraAtrox]

Originally posted by Silver:

Originally posted by UmbraAtrox:

even if you assume i forgot half the stats and you double or even tripple the space needed per temtem its still a tiny file. Space isnt the issue.

I'd defer to the knowledge of the actual developers on this matter rather than make assumptions about what data is stored and how. I seriously doubt you're more qualified to talk about the matter than they are.

You can choose to believe not me, can't do more than state the obvious.

But if it's truly impossible i wonder how Pokemon Sword/Shield manages to save 960 Pokemon + Playerdata + Multiple Teams into a 1.6MB file. You can verify the filesize by yourself by typing "pokemon sword 100% save" into google and checking the sizesize of provided safefile.

Edit: I'd guess Pokemon devs are better at working with small space since they had to fit everything on extremely small spaces since Gameboy times. The whole pokemon blue game is 1MB big. Thats the whole game including all text, assets, scripts, pokemon etc. and it's savegame is 32kB and still manages to hold Playerdata + All stored pokemon (6 Team + 240 Box)

So is it impossible to store more temtem in a small file?
definetly not, Nintendo did it with Pokemon.

Is it impossible to store so many Temtem in a small file for crema?
Seems so.

[Silver]

Originally posted by UmbraAtrox:

Originally posted by Silver:

I'd defer to the knowledge of the actual developers on this matter rather than make assumptions about what data is stored and how. I seriously doubt you're more qualified to talk about the matter than they are.

You can choose to believe not me, can't do more than state the obvious.

But if it's truly impossible i wonder how Pokemon Sword/Shield manages to save 960 Pokemon + Playerdata + Multiple Teams into a 1.6MB file. You can verify the filesize by yourself by typing "pokemon sword 100% save" into google and checking the sizesize of provided safefile.

I'm not doubting what you're saying about Pokemon. But you're comparing apples and oranges. Temtem is a persistent, online game. An MMO. There are completely different considerations in play, for example the ability of a database to scale horizontally by duplicating data across multiple instances to be able to serve more users simultaneously. Or the use of indexes in databases to speed up the retrieval of data. The use of globally unique IDs for entries in the database rather than simply locally unique for a local file. Additional information beyond the stats that could be stored for the purposes of cheat detection, debugging...

There is a lot of stuff going on in the background and it isn't fair to compare it to a completely different system with completely different needs. That's simply not how stuff like this works.

EDIT: And an important thing I forgot, but should have also mentioned: Optimising a system like this to use the minimal amount of storage space isn't desirable in a case like Temtem. There are much more important things, like the expandability, scalability, and ease of use/development to consider so the project can continue long-term.

[UmbraAtrox]

Originally posted by Silver:

I'm not doubting what you're saying about Pokemon. But you're comparing apples and oranges. Temtem is a persistent, online game. An MMO. There are completely different considerations in play, for example the ability of a database to scale horizontally by duplicating data across multiple instances to be able to serve more users simultaneously.

how the data get handled at runtime doesn't matter for the savefile size. Doesn't matter if it's an MMO, Singleplayer or something entirely different. For the game it doesn't matter if it's getting the Information from a 1,5kB raw file or from a 3MB json. The information is the same.

Originally posted by Silver:

Or the use of indexes in databases to speed up the retrieval of data. The use of globally unique IDs for entries in the database rather than simply locally unique for a local file.

Well i assumed that they would use global indexes.

Originally posted by Silver:

Additional information beyond the stats that could be stored for the purposes of cheat detection, debugging...

Thats why i said you can tripple it if you want. Also do not mistake debug information which is stored only once per player and debug information stored per temtem. The first one doesn't change based on how many temtem you have. the latter does.

Originally posted by Silver:

There is a lot of stuff going on in the background and it isn't fair to compare it to a completely different system with completely different needs. That's simply not how stuff like this works.

You are acting as if we were dealing with huge amounts of data but that isn't true. The raw data is only ~50b per TemTem (+ lets say 100b for debugging). There simply isn't more information to store. Each temtem just has the Properites i listed above and those fit in the Variables i proposed.

Let's be realistic here.. Temtem really hasn't much data going on. Imagine any other multiplayer game. Egoshooters like Battlefield have a lot going on since you have to sync everything in realtime. Player positions in 3d space, Where they are aiming, Bullet trajectories, etc. everything for 64 players. In who knows how many instances.

Originally posted by Silver:

EDIT: And an important thing I forgot, but should have also mentioned: Optimising a system like this to use the minimal amount of storage space isn't desirable in a case like Temtem. There are much more important things, like the expandability, scalability, and ease of use/development to consider so the project can continue long-term.

Well it is if it already acting as a undesirable hard limit. Because that's what it's doing now. It already hinders them and it only will get worse, they will have to rework their saving If cremas save system is overwhelmed with more than 300 temtem and just 100k players

Edit: funny that you mentioned scalability. Because the lack of scalability is the reason this thread exists.