Vassals nosense

[xTeOzZ]

The new update certainly adds some interesting feautures on vassal management, but theres something wrong...

- An ally of mine (treaty of non-belligerence, trade, blood bond) is allowed to attack a vassal of mine, moreover a 'Scutage' vassal. Icing on the cake, the vassal 'protection' mechanism doesnt even work.

In the patch notes its also stated that "Newly created vassals now inherit their sovereign’s relations with other kingdoms".

- A vassal of mine attacks another state 10 times more powerful with which, by the way, I have a treaty of non-belligerence and trade.

-Perhaps it should be added that a vassal must ask permission/opinion before attacking another state.

[Judeo-communism]

lol Vassals attack nations you have Non-Aggression Pacts and Trade Agreements with? That's awful lol, so you lose Crown Authority and Opinions if you don't help your Vassal but you also lose them if you do help your Vassal? Massive dev common sense L.

[hellfusion]

Originally posted by Judeo-communism:

lol Vassals attack nations you have Non-Aggression Pacts and Trade Agreements with? That's awful lol, so you lose Crown Authority and Opinions if you don't help your Vassal but you also lose them if you do help your Vassal? Massive dev common sense L.

No.
1). My vassals only ask me to protect them when they were attacked.
2). If somebody you have NAP and trade agreements with attacks your vassal, they can ask for your help, true. But if you agree, you get no penalties, not to crown authority, not to opinions for breaking agreements. Because you have casus belli basically.
So it works more or less logically, you have to protect them for the money they pay you.

Yes, one vassal may attack another, but again, you have to side with the attacked.

But, there is a bug right now, I got massive CA loss when somebody attacked my Scuttage vassal. Seems like a bug, because as I said usually you get no penalties.

[Goel]

My biggest problem is vassal attacking vassal, I just wont play this game until the logic is fixed.
Clearly some calculation is NOT taking place here.

1 of my scutage vassals attacks another of my scutage vassals.
The attacking vassal has 2 provinces, the defender has 1.
But I have 12 provinces and a scutage agreement with both of them.
Why does my scutage vassal think it can break vassalage, go to war with me AND my scutage vassal at the same time?
Why doesn't it simply declare war on me if it wants to? Which it clearly must want to since it declared a war on my scutage.

Answer: It never accounts for you or the scutage in the war declaration, in all probability it simply looks at the faction it wants to attack and then decides (I wonder if it even calculates military alliances)

This is the exact same problem you will face if you play any total war game, in those games the calculations never take place either, which is why it is never the overlord being attacked it is always the vassals with their small nation strength that will be attacked by a neighbor or ally, in this game the problem is exacerbated because vassals can themselves declare wars, and you can actively create vassals out of 1 province.

I also took over most of Spain and made everything into individual small vassals and they all started warring with each other.

Because of the missing logic, the vassal feature is just anti-fun in my opinion, I really dislike the fact that I am dragged into a war with against own vassal time and time again and I cannot actively do anything to mediate the peace.

Why can't I tell my attacking vassal "I intend to honor my scutage agreement, so you will have to face combined arms, do you still want to do this?"

What I would really like to see, would be the ability for the AI to plan the war and then offer me Land, gold, more vassal tax, etc. for me to NOT to honor my scutage agreement / disowning my vassal.

[xTeOzZ]

Originally posted by Goel:

My biggest problem is vassal attacking vassal, I just wont play this game until the logic is fixed.
Clearly some calculation is NOT taking place here.

1 of my scutage vassals attacks another of my scutage vassals.
The attacking vassal has 2 provinces, the defender has 1.
But I have 12 provinces and a scutage agreement with both of them.
Why does my scutage vassal think it can break vassalage, go to war with me AND my scutage vassal at the same time?
Why doesn't it simply declare war on me if it wants to? Which it clearly must want to since it declared a war on my scutage.

Answer: It never accounts for you or the scutage in the war declaration, in all probability it simply looks at the faction it wants to attack and then decides (I wonder if it even calculates military alliances)

This is the exact same problem you will face if you play any total war game, in those games the calculations never take place either, which is why it is never the overlord being attacked it is always the vassals with their small nation strength that will be attacked by a neighbor or ally, in this game the problem is exacerbated because vassals can themselves declare wars, and you can actively create vassals out of 1 province.

I also took over most of Spain and made everything into individual small vassals and they all started warring with each other.

Because of the missing logic, the vassal feature is just anti-fun in my opinion, I really dislike the fact that I am dragged into a war with against own vassal time and time again and I cannot actively do anything to mediate the peace.

Why can't I tell my attacking vassal "I intend to honor my scutage agreement, so you will have to face combined arms, do you still want to do this?"

What I would really like to see, would be the ability for the AI to plan the war and then offer me Land, gold, more vassal tax, etc. for me to NOT to honor my scutage agreement / disowning my vassal.

I am playing Crusader Kings 3, the management of vassals is much better and deeper, I think they should take some cues from there.

The idea that vassals can make war against each other also seems fair to me, as long as I don't have to do anything about it, since obviously a vassal with a few provinces can never defeat me.
They should implement that more unhappy vassals join together to reach a power that can challenge me.