Isn't Paganism kinda bad?

[yan129x]

I mean, if we were to take the quite painful penalties and compare them to a full four belief bonus they even themselves out quite well.
But that's not taking into account that for that you have to have four shamans which is way too much to use except as ♥♥♥♥♥♥ marshals and take up space for other classes of knights and the gold cost incurred by each belief, both to take it in the beginning and the upkeep.

I would be curious to hear counterarguments.

[hellfusion]

Pagan’s best feature is shaman’s ability to lead full armies without marshal skills. You can use it for early mass pillage and overpowering enemy with numbers.

You don’t really need all 4 beliefs active. Only the best of them. At the start it’s the one that gives +10 books. +10% army strength is quite powerful too.

[yan129x]

True but as I said, the Shamans are just bad Marshals, if I wanted early fighters then Marshals are better for it, the good beliefs are nice but barely compensate the downsides before we take into account the fact the Shamans take the space of other knights.
Not to mention the lack of the buildings.

So, we get back to my original point, we have an interesting and original take for a different religion play through but it doesn't really have enough going for it to actually be worth the bother.

[yan129x]

PS: They take space of other knights, take uping beliefs costs in the beginning and has an upkeep too.

And for what? Better book growth rate? Well, it gets originally cut down by being a pagan.
Combat bonuses of some beliefs? But you are forced to use Shamans who are worse commanders than Marshals so I doubt it even evens it out.

[hellfusion]

Pagan can easily hire 6 full armies pretty early, 3 marshals + 3 clerics for 40+40=80 gold upkeep. For 6 marshals you need 250 gold upkeep, 3 times more. If you outnumber enemy you can catch them 1 by 1 and crush them. 2 shamans defeat 1 marshal easily 99% of the time. And at the beginning shaman is not much weaker than marshal. You need to spend a good amount of books and find provinces with good amount of castles to really make the most out of marshals.

Other nations need clerics too. Usually 1-2 slots. Why don’t consider them wasted slots? In my pagan playthroughs I too use 2 shamans mid-to-late game. They can do all stuff clerics do AND lead full armies to assist marshals to 2x1 someone, pillage or kill rebels. Double worth.

About +10% manpower and other military boosts. This means that 2 of your best armies (marshals of course) will always be better than enemy’s 2 best armies. If you have equal levies, technology etc of course. So they’ll have to retreat or risk getting their knight killed etc.

Lack of buildings is whatever. Anyway it’s a good idea to capture someone’s university, rather than pouring tons of gold in building one yourself.

[Brucato]

I wouldnt discount the value of books. I love gaining books and building my knights up!!

[chompers]

You are underestimating the value of beliefs pretty hard here. They are quite powerful, and the penalty for being Pagan is nothing in comparison.

[yan129x]

Originally posted by hellfusion:

Pagan can easily hire 6 full armies pretty early, 3 marshals + 3 clerics for 40+40=80 gold upkeep. For 6 marshals you need 250 gold upkeep, 3 times more. If you outnumber enemy you can catch them 1 by 1 and crush them. 2 shamans defeat 1 marshal easily 99% of the time. And at the beginning shaman is not much weaker than marshal. You need to spend a good amount of books and find provinces with good amount of castles to really make the most out of marshals.

Other nations need clerics too. Usually 1-2 slots. Why don’t consider them wasted slots? In my pagan playthroughs I too use 2 shamans mid-to-late game. They can do all stuff clerics do AND lead full armies to assist marshals to 2x1 someone, pillage or kill rebels. Double worth.

About +10% manpower and other military boosts. This means that 2 of your best armies (marshals of course) will always be better than enemy’s 2 best armies. If you have equal levies, technology etc of course. So they’ll have to retreat or risk getting their knight killed etc.

Lack of buildings is whatever. Anyway it’s a good idea to capture someone’s university, rather than pouring tons of gold in building one yourself.

But that's the thing, if 1-2 shamans are just 1-2 beliefs, that is, either Heroes and Gods for the book bonuses (15 books is major but not THAT much) which the 15% (or 25%? I forget) debuff for books makes irrelevant by mid game or the war bonuses which are nice but not insanely good.
6 Marshals is overkill for any situation I have currently met though to be fair I only play hard currently so may be at the max level it is different? I usually don't go above 3.
And Shamans being the equals of Marshalls without upgrades is again made irrelevant by mid game.

I am basically saying that the mechanic is cool and interesting but not actually worth the bother except edge cases of "make your own fun" type of stuff where you willfully make your own life harder on purpose.

[yan129x]

Originally posted by Chompers:

You are underestimating the value of beliefs pretty hard here. They are quite powerful, and the penalty for being Pagan is nothing in comparison.

Can you please go into this in more detail? What exactly am I missing?
The way I see it, the book bonuses are cool but offset by the book gain debuff and lack of religion buildings.
The war buffs are cool but offset by the fact you are forced to use Shamans instead of Marshals.

What actual bonuses are there to offset the downsides?

[hellfusion]

Originally posted by yan129x:

Originally posted by hellfusion:

Pagan can easily hire 6 full armies pretty early, 3 marshals + 3 clerics for 40+40=80 gold upkeep. For 6 marshals you need 250 gold upkeep, 3 times more. If you outnumber enemy you can catch them 1 by 1 and crush them. 2 shamans defeat 1 marshal easily 99% of the time. And at the beginning shaman is not much weaker than marshal. You need to spend a good amount of books and find provinces with good amount of castles to really make the most out of marshals.

Other nations need clerics too. Usually 1-2 slots. Why don’t consider them wasted slots? In my pagan playthroughs I too use 2 shamans mid-to-late game. They can do all stuff clerics do AND lead full armies to assist marshals to 2x1 someone, pillage or kill rebels. Double worth.

About +10% manpower and other military boosts. This means that 2 of your best armies (marshals of course) will always be better than enemy’s 2 best armies. If you have equal levies, technology etc of course. So they’ll have to retreat or risk getting their knight killed etc.

Lack of buildings is whatever. Anyway it’s a good idea to capture someone’s university, rather than pouring tons of gold in building one yourself.

But that's the thing, if 1-2 shamans are just 1-2 beliefs, that is, either Heroes and Gods for the book bonuses (15 books is major but not THAT much) which the 15% (or 25%? I forget) debuff for books makes irrelevant by mid game or the war bonuses which are nice but not insanely good.
6 Marshals is overkill for any situation I have currently met though to be fair I only play hard currently so may be at the max level it is different? I usually don't go above 3.
And Shamans being the equals of Marshalls without upgrades is again made irrelevant by mid game.

I am basically saying that the mechanic is cool and interesting but not actually worth the bother except edge cases of "make your own fun" type of stuff where you willfully make your own life harder on purpose.

You can play whatever you want. Any moron can beat AI that’s just the way it works. But generally the more aggressive you play the more efficient you are. You gain more territory, more tribute, more vassals, can use spare marshals to farm cash on rebels and repel surprise attacks. You can manage with 3 marshals of course, but nobody plays with 3 marshals in good level MP matches for that reason.

[ShadowFox]

Paganism is a bit handicapped but it has some special abilities that are very interesting, I haven't actually won on paganism yet but it seems like it wouldn't be too hard just have to watch out for the crusades :)

[ТЕХНОВИКИНГУ]

In my current run i started as perm and found being pagan to be very strong. i was using up to 7 shamans. not only do four beliefs buff you immensely in different fields, the shamans also make surrounding provinces owned by other kingdoms become loyal to you, just make sure to make them govern border towns. im using logistics tradition and every other tradition is for cultural power boost. this makes it easy to conquer towns, as you dont have to establish order in most cases. also rebels come up there and distract enemy armies or make them eventually loose towns to your loyalist rebellions (aka giving them you for free). Also remember you can switch beliefs, if it feels like another one can be better for some times.
as it is rn in my run, i only have left france, hungary, bohemia, germany and nottinghamshire as enemies. btw once my king died and had no son, making my nearly world-wide kingdom split up in like 15 new kingdoms and having 7 armies was so good to reconquer these scums. the first town i conquered with a university was allowed to keep it, so i can use their techs, every other christian and muslim building was destroyed.

[Kahl der Große]

Pagans are definitely weak. No one uses 6 marshals, so the 3 + 3 argument w/ shamans doesn't matter.
- less books
- everyone hates you and won't be your ally or marry princesses to you
- can't make all buildings
- no special units like templar or roman infantry
- always get crusaded against

It's a neat thing having paganism, but in multiplayer no one ever wants them, just much worse than christianity