[Spoilers] Confusion about "Level Is Level"

[Hoodie Sticks]

I'm making decent progress through the ??? world, and I've been told that there are even more secret worlds after this one (I've already found the ABC world). I assumed that to reach them I would need to get to the pink ? space surrounded by dust.

In the main world, I was able to travel around by making the sentence "Level is Baba" from within a level. Here, one of the rules is "Level is Level", so clearly that isn't an option anymore.

Eventually I had a "Eureka!" moment when I realized you can make the sentence "Level is You" from within ???-7. I was excited to see how hectic the map would get when I could move all the levels around at once, and what kind of wacky puzzle would come out of that, but ... that's not what happened. "Level is You" lets me move around every object from within the level, but has no effect on levels when you return to map.

Later I had another "Eureka!" moment with "Level is Push", where I assumed that making that sentence would allow the cursor to push levels around in the map, possibly letting me form a bridge to the pink ? spot. But once again, "Level is Push" has no effect on levels once you return to map (and for that matter, it doesn't seem to have any effect within the level either, which is disappointing).

Eventually I got frustrated and looked up how I was supposed to move around the map here, and I found out that "Level is Baba" still works in the ??? world, despite the rule "Level is Level". What exactly is the logic here? What does "Level is Level" even do, if level transformations are still allowed? Including that rule just feels misleading and mean, if the solution is still to use level transformations.

By the way, I'm playing on Switch version. Don't know if there's any differences between the versions, but just in case, I figured I'd mention it.

[Kiddiec͕̤̱͋̿͑͠at 🃏]

Originally posted by Hoodie Sticks:

...
Eventually I got frustrated and looked up how I was supposed to move around the map here, and I found out that "Level is Baba" still works in the ??? world, despite the rule "Level is Level". What exactly is the logic here? What does "Level is Level" even do, if level transformations are still allowed? Including that rule just feels misleading and mean, if the solution is still to use level transformations.

By the way, I'm playing on Switch version. Don't know if there's any differences between the versions, but just in case, I figured I'd mention it.

You can transform levels from within themselves but not from the rules on the map.

There's also a way to push other words into that rule to turn other things into levels that start off as normal objects on the map. I don't remember how exactly to do this, though.

[Hoodie Sticks]

Originally posted by Kiddiec͕̤̱͋̿͑͠at:

You can transform levels from within themselves but not from the rules on the map.

There's also a way to push other words into that rule to turn other things into levels that start off as normal objects on the map. I don't remember how exactly to do this, though.


:seewhatyoudid:

I figured out how to do the spoiler thing earlier today to get to the two bonus levels, but none of the sentences I made required "Level is Level". They could just as easily be done with a single "Level" word in the corner of the ??? world. As far as I can tell, the only reason "Level is Level" is there is just to falsely convince players like me that level transformations from within levels won't work, even though they still do.

Thus far I've really enjoyed the cleverness of the puzzles, and how every possible interaction with the mechanics gets explored, but this specific part just made me so frustrated. I feel cheated.

[OwlsCantRead]

Ah, rough misunderstanding.

Throughout the game, X IS X rules prevent unwanted transformations, and it's the case here too. In simpler terms, the main world shows that maps themselves function as levels of their own, and rules can apply to them, and this is the jumping point you have to get around once you enter ???. In short, Level is Level rule applies to the ??? map, but not to ???-7. If that level had Level is Level inside it, you wouldn't be able to transform it, as you thought.

The reason why Level is Level is on the ??? map is because if it wasn't there, you could transform the ??? map itself (as it is itself a level) into something else with a rule like "Level is Rock", and doing that basically sends you to the void, so it's softlock prevention.

[Kiddiec͕̤̱͋̿͑͠at 🃏]

Originally posted by Hoodie Sticks:

... They could just as easily be done with a single "Level" word in the corner of the ??? world. As far as I can tell, the only reason "Level is Level" is there is just to falsely convince players like me that level transformations from within levels won't work, even though they still do.
...

No. The word "Level" is on the map so that you can change objects into levels but the sentence "Level is Level" is there to make sure that unintended transformations of the map itself don't happen.

If I recall correctly, this may be in part due to being able to transform one of the levels into text instead of Baba.

I believe user: "OwlsCantRead" explained this better than I did in his post above.



Rules on the map don't apply to levels within the map - otherwise, you'd never not be Baba in any of the levels on main map island / continent where the rule "Baba Is You" is spelled out on the map itself.

If you don't see it on screen it is either Thing Is Hide or it doesn't exist.

[Hoodie Sticks]

Originally posted by OwlsCantRead:

The reason why Level is Level is on the ??? map is because if it wasn't there, you could transform the ??? map itself (as it is itself a level) into something else with a rule like "Level is Rock", and doing that basically sends you to the void, so it's softlock prevention.

Oh, okay. So if i wanted things like "Level is You" or "Level is Push", I would need to make those sentences from the ??? map. The only rules that can transcend a particular level and affect the map it belongs to are the transformation rules like "Level is Baba".

I still feel like "Level is Level" is unnecessary, though. Putting a single "Level" word in the corner of the map would guarantee that "Level" is always at the end of any sentence it's in, so things like "Level is Rock" would be impossible anyway. Is there a softlock possible using "Level" as the last word in a sentence?

[Kiddiec͕̤̱͋̿͑͠at 🃏]

Originally posted by Hoodie Sticks:

...
Oh, okay. So if i wanted things like "Level is You" or "Level is Push", I would need to make those sentences from the ??? map. The only rules that can transcend a particular level and affect the map it belongs to are the transformation rules like "Level is Baba".
...

That is correct.

Originally posted by Hoodie Sticks:

...
I still feel like "Level is Level" is unnecessary, though. ...

It is necessary:

https://steamcommunity.com/app/736260/discussions/0/2666627679236920984/
or
https://youtu.be/BaDVCeMQgF0

[TurboGhast]

On top of the possibility discussed above, I think the "Level" text on the ??? map being a part of a full rule instead of a singular text block is part of the puzzles found on that map screen, as a way of making it less obvious you can find new levels by transforming things into levels, especially with how often other levels use an unbreakable "Noun is noun" rule to prevent strategies that would let you win too easily.