Do you think Chizuru is boring?

[Huntok4r]

I've been a pretty big fan of the Hakuoki series for some time and I like to read reviews and forums at times just to see talking points with others and see other opinions.
I was surprised to see one not necessarily common but oft repeated opinion is that Chizuru is boring or annoying.
I never really felt that way, I do see how she wasn't necessarily a fighter or bold but I always felt like that a result of the time period and well she DOES fight in some routes or gets to being bold to aid whomever she is romancing or to tell Kazuma to back off or chill. I remember at least one being upset she never used her oni abilities but in her defense she never learned to use them nor was aware she was even an oni until recently. Others were frustrated with her talking habits though it seemed implied she didn't really have friends as a kid so she didn't seem to know how to socialize well.

I'm curious what others think.

[Huntok4r]

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Okita suffers the same as Nobunaga in that people can't seem to represent them in anime/manga as anyting other than girls or reincarnated girls which is kinda annoying and starting to annoy a good part of the japanese fanbase it seems. There are enough strong girls figures in their History, semi-legendary or well-documented, to not need to genderbend important male warriors left and right. This is just pandering to the otaku part of the fan base who wants swords and tits.

If you want some good depiction of a (male) Nobunaga, there's an ongoing anime about him that started last summer. I think the title is Kochouki Wakaki Nobunaga or something. Apparently, it's accurate (as accurate as can ben since most of what we know from Sengoku Era are hearsays, that's what civil war does to History). It's interesting because he started the whole mess that would lead to Edo Era, the isolation of Japan and the way foreigners were perceived (which ended up playing a great part in the turmoils of the Shinsengumi). He's also a fascinating man in his own right.

Yeah, I heard about Kaze Hikaru, it seems cool. I also heard there's boy love all around if you aren't Okita or Hijikata who are depicted as straight haha ! But it's not inaccurate since homosexual sex was tolerated during centuries in Japan. It even was expected. The gender roles were strictly divided and large group of young men would find themselves spending months, if not years, far from their homes and lovers/wives because of work or war. Since traveling from one town to another took weeks, they couldn't drop by for a quick kiss and red-light districts can only be fun for so long. So it didn't strike anyone as odd that two men would engage in a sexual affair and it was even codified so it would always be an older man with a younger man in his teens. The older would teach the younger everything he knew and when the latter hit adulthood, they would break up the affair (or carry it on but in the shadows because it was then seen as weird, like as weird as a grown man still clinging to his mama).

These sort of affairs were going on in the Shinsengumi as well. Kondo wrote about it in one letter, saying the boys were bored out of their minds and had decided to start some "interesting activities" but it escalated so much that every time he went home, he felt like stepping in the red-light district all over again. He was amused by it if a bit annoyed. But some time latter, he and Hijikata decided to ban homosexual relationships in the Shinsengumi because there were lots of love triangles and the other boys were ressorting to murder out of jealousy. It got quite out of hand haha !

I've recently read a few historians wonder if Hijikata and Okita did anything of the sort, based on some letters and haikus from the former. If they did, they kept silent about it and Kondo never knew or he would have written about it for sure. It's weird imagining them that way though. Some fans do because the anime was so awkward about the whole family drama but when you've played the games, sequels and read side-materials, it just feels like incest even if they're not blood-related !

No signs of anything going on between Okita and Saito though, except friendship. Shinpachi went on about how Okita feared Saito's skills but it seems weird and contradicts the testimonies of other people in the area, like the parents of the kids Okita played with.

BTW I've seen fans asking for a Kondo route too haha but I can't even, unless it's a friendship route haha ! I mean, I don't know how they could miss all the little hints that he treats Chizuru as a daughter. It would feel so weird to romance him even though I'm pretty sure he's a dear !

About Kenshin, it's more complicated. The main characters of Kenshin are based on historical samurais of the era, Shinsengumi or not, but they are pure OCs. The tomboyish girl is one of them. The real Okita does show up though, in a flashback I think. He is depicted as a very young boy, no more than 18 maybe, and as always, as a genius with a sword. He fights Kenshin for a bit and end up coughing (of course, it wouldn't do to let him kill the main char haha) and Saito steps up to defy Kenshin. What bothers me in Kenshin is that Saito is depicted as a much older man than he was and a superior of Okita (in that he is a captain and Okita is not) which is false of course since they were close in age and both captains of the Shinsengumi. What's interesting though is that it depicts Saito's life post-Shinsengumi, which is almost never touched upon.

But yeah there are lots of stories you can find on the Internet and some kind fan translations about textbooks or even Hakuouki materials, with side-notes explaining some of the cultural and historical things happening all around. There's a livejournal with translations of the prequels and some notes, sadly the author has passed away and never could finish all she started but it's quite good still. You just have to search "tokio fujita" livejournal about Hakuouki.

Agreed, while in Fate I can deal because the game doesn’t take itself seriously and even joked about Nobunaga being a girl after so many other figures are also girls now, it’s still bothersome to see when there’s actual very interesting women in their history.
I had heard about that series! I want to watch it but I try to avoid pirating where I can and unfortunately Funimation isn’t streaming it anywhere but their personal players and sites which don’t work ever lol.
I’ll have to buy it when it’s done. It looked really cool.

Lol I might check that out. I remember hearing about that when finding out the rules of the Shinsengumi, I had wondered what drove that into existence.
Huh, I’d never thought about those two but it does make sense to speculate on.

I don’t know if I’d be able to play a Kondo route in Hakuoki lol. I get his appeal certainly but in this game he’s too fatherly to Chizuru and his death plays a massive role in most if not all the routes. If it were another game, I could probably.

Huh, I never would have thought lol. I’d never seen Kenshin. Been meaning to sit down for it. I wonder if the roles were changed because of personality or something. But that is odd.

I’ll do some digging! Thank you for the tip! I remember I found one Tumblr blog earlier this year called Hakuouki-History but they appeared to have abandoned it and the poster apparently does annual April fool’s jokes so it’s hard to tell unless you check the date on every post. 😅

[Metalhen]

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Agreed, while in Fate I can deal because the game doesn’t take itself seriously and even joked about Nobunaga being a girl after so many other figures are also girls now, it’s still bothersome to see when there’s actual very interesting women in their history.
I had heard about that series! I want to watch it but I try to avoid pirating where I can and unfortunately Funimation isn’t streaming it anywhere but their personal players and sites which don’t work ever lol.
I’ll have to buy it when it’s done. It looked really cool.

Lol I might check that out. I remember hearing about that when finding out the rules of the Shinsengumi, I had wondered what drove that into existence.
Huh, I’d never thought about those two but it does make sense to speculate on.

I don’t know if I’d be able to play a Kondo route in Hakuoki lol. I get his appeal certainly but in this game he’s too fatherly to Chizuru and his death plays a massive role in most if not all the routes. If it were another game, I could probably.

Huh, I never would have thought lol. I’d never seen Kenshin. Been meaning to sit down for it. I wonder if the roles were changed because of personality or something. But that is odd.

I’ll do some digging! Thank you for the tip! I remember I found one Tumblr blog earlier this year called Hakuouki-History but they appeared to have abandoned it and the poster apparently does annual April fool’s jokes so it’s hard to tell unless you check the date on every post. 😅

Haha yeah, some people are doing jokes with Hakuouki, complete with screenshots with false dialogues and all, it's funny but you better know it's a joke and not real stuff.

I know Kondo is romanceable in some mobile otomes. It may be easier but I still can't see him as anything other than a father figure XD !

I'll tip you if I ever come across more historical stuff ! I'm glad I already found some, especially all of Hijikata's old shenanigans. He was not that cold lol ! But Okita in-game wasn't too far of the mark when he said he was a "horrible person" haha !

Ah yeah, you can find the musicals on Youtube if you write your search in japanese. There are the complete ones for Okita, Hijikata, Saito and Kazama. Maybe Heisuke's but not sure. I'm not too much into musicals but these were amazingly well-done and I'm glad they made one for each route, each with a different musical style, instead of adapting only Hijikata like the anime does. And the actors are so similar to their characters ! Especially for Kazama, he is soooo good, totally in character, easy on the eyes and great at improvising ! And he sings so well too ! Okita and Hijikata really sound like their in-game counterparts and they nailed the brotherly bond ! The actress for Chizuru changes with each musical, maybe because only one poor girl would be dead on her feets going through all of them at once ! They are very different so I guess, it depends on your taste. I liked the one for Okita more because I think she ressembles the character the most and I like her soft voice. But the others were good too.

One other thing that I find great with the musicals is that they did manage to condense the routes in a 2 hours show. It's rare enough to be praised. Especially since they kept scenes and dialogues from the side-materials.

[Huntok4r]

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Haha yeah, some people are doing jokes with Hakuouki, complete with screenshots with false dialogues and all, it's funny but you better know it's a joke and not real stuff.

I know Kondo is romanceable in some mobile otomes. It may be easier but I still can't see him as anything other than a father figure XD !

I'll tip you if I ever come across more historical stuff ! I'm glad I already found some, especially all of Hijikata's old shenanigans. He was not that cold lol ! But Okita in-game wasn't too far of the mark when he said he was a "horrible person" haha !

Ah yeah, you can find the musicals on Youtube if you write your search in japanese. There are the complete ones for Okita, Hijikata, Saito and Kazama. Maybe Heisuke's but not sure. I'm not too much into musicals but these were amazingly well-done and I'm glad they made one for each route, each with a different musical style, instead of adapting only Hijikata like the anime does. And the actors are so similar to their characters ! Especially for Kazama, he is soooo good, totally in character, easy on the eyes and great at improvising ! And he sings so well too ! Okita and Hijikata really sound like their in-game counterparts and they nailed the brotherly bond ! The actress for Chizuru changes with each musical, maybe because only one poor girl would be dead on her feets going through all of them at once ! They are very different so I guess, it depends on your taste. I liked the one for Okita more because I think she ressembles the character the most and I like her soft voice. But the others were good too.

One other thing that I find great with the musicals is that they did manage to condense the routes in a 2 hours show. It's rare enough to be praised. Especially since they kept scenes and dialogues from the side-materials.

Lol, I could see why. The slash shipping in Hakuoki is big.

I can get that lol. It’s set in your head. Just super dad-ly lol

Thanks! I’ll do the same if I find anything too! And yeah it’s nice to break the Demon Commander stuff. It’s a neat trope but it can get one note when he’s just depicted as someone who wants to yell all day and beat on people. And lol it’s cool to see that Okita was accurate!

Oh! I didn’t know there were musicals! I’ll have to dig those up! That’s sounds nice to watch!

[Metalhen]

The Nobunaga anime I talked to you about is getting an interactive story spin-off, look it up :

https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2019-09-06/kochoki-wakaki-nobunaga-gets-spinoff-story-with-english-french-releases/.150707

Also I didn't know most of the staff from Hakuoki worked on the anime ! That's why it felt so familiar somehow !

[Huntok4r]

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The Nobunaga anime I talked to you about is getting an interactive story spin-off, look it up :

https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2019-09-06/kochoki-wakaki-nobunaga-gets-spinoff-story-with-english-french-releases/.150707

Also I didn't know most of the staff from Hakuoki worked on the anime ! That's why it felt so familiar somehow !

Oh my god this is so great to hear! I can’t wait to see its release! I’m living for the historical drama genre to be so big lately!

[Metalhen]

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Metalhen lähetti viestin:

The Nobunaga anime I talked to you about is getting an interactive story spin-off, look it up :

https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2019-09-06/kochoki-wakaki-nobunaga-gets-spinoff-story-with-english-french-releases/.150707

Also I didn't know most of the staff from Hakuoki worked on the anime ! That's why it felt so familiar somehow !

Oh my god this is so great to hear! I can’t wait to see its release! I’m living for the historical drama genre to be so big lately!

True, we need more of this, whatever country or era it may concern ! A good way of learning and more interesting than otaku pandering or whatever new moe ♥♥♥♥ !

Now that I think of it, Versailles no Bara may have been my first historical manga/anime XD ! So the genre is old ! I don't know about visual novels since the west didn't get them until a few years ago !

[Huntok4r]

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True, we need more of this, whatever country or era it may concern ! A good way of learning and more interesting than otaku pandering or whatever new moe ♥♥♥♥ !

Now that I think of it, Versailles no Bara may have been my first historical manga/anime XD ! So the genre is old ! I don't know about visual novels since the west didn't get them until a few years ago !

I think my own was that one too! I like a variety, but there reallly needs to be more historical stuff outside Japan!

[Metalhen]

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True, we need more of this, whatever country or era it may concern ! A good way of learning and more interesting than otaku pandering or whatever new moe ♥♥♥♥ !

Now that I think of it, Versailles no Bara may have been my first historical manga/anime XD ! So the genre is old ! I don't know about visual novels since the west didn't get them until a few years ago !

I think my own was that one too! I like a variety, but there reallly needs to be more historical stuff outside Japan!

On the other hand, they better do some good research ! I don't mind some dramatic license but I get bothered when things get too wild or too inaccurate. For example, since we talked about Versailles no Bara, Marie-Antoinette cheating of the King with Fersen is sensible dramatic license (still unproven and unlikely according to both their agendas but realistic given their very real romantic feelings for each-other). But Thank God it didn't go the "Marie-Antoinette is a tyrannic queen swimming in diamonds while peasants are dying left and right"... which she never did. She was an airhead and really not aware at all of the deteriorating conditions outside of her palace.

Same thing with Hakuouki if Hijikata had been protrayed as a jovial man ala Kondo or Shinpachi haha !

To synthetize : everyone as a bishie is okay lol, everyone OOC is not. Some added drama does not hurt, totally fictionnal events can. :p

[Huntok4r]

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I think my own was that one too! I like a variety, but there reallly needs to be more historical stuff outside Japan!

On the other hand, they better do some good research ! I don't mind some dramatic license but I get bothered when things get too wild or too inaccurate. For example, since we talked about Versailles no Bara, Marie-Antoinette cheating of the King with Fersen is sensible dramatic license (still unproven and unlikely according to both their agendas but realistic given their very real romantic feelings for each-other). But Thank God it didn't go the "Marie-Antoinette is a tyrannic queen swimming in diamonds while peasants are dying left and right"... which she never did. She was an airhead and really not aware at all of the deteriorating conditions outside of her palace.

Same thing with Hakuouki if Hijikata had been protrayed as a jovial man ala Kondo or Shinpachi haha !

To synthetize : everyone as a bishie is okay lol, everyone OOC is not. Some added drama does not hurt, totally fictionnal events can. :p

Yeah I can get that. I can deal with artistic or dramatic license to some extent but some shows definitely push it. FGO already has a history of iffy-ness but I was really wary with their Okita and Hijikata. Okita is very questionable but their Hijikata was close if a little comically strict.
There’s definitely some limits on what I can take in license lol.

[Metalhen]

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On the other hand, they better do some good research ! I don't mind some dramatic license but I get bothered when things get too wild or too inaccurate. For example, since we talked about Versailles no Bara, Marie-Antoinette cheating of the King with Fersen is sensible dramatic license (still unproven and unlikely according to both their agendas but realistic given their very real romantic feelings for each-other). But Thank God it didn't go the "Marie-Antoinette is a tyrannic queen swimming in diamonds while peasants are dying left and right"... which she never did. She was an airhead and really not aware at all of the deteriorating conditions outside of her palace.

Same thing with Hakuouki if Hijikata had been protrayed as a jovial man ala Kondo or Shinpachi haha !

To synthetize : everyone as a bishie is okay lol, everyone OOC is not. Some added drama does not hurt, totally fictionnal events can. :p

Yeah I can get that. I can deal with artistic or dramatic license to some extent but some shows definitely push it. FGO already has a history of iffy-ness but I was really wary with their Okita and Hijikata. Okita is very questionable but their Hijikata was close if a little comically strict.
There’s definitely some limits on what I can take in license lol.

I'm under the impression that Hijikata was always close, no matter the version. Maybe having lots of testimonies, letters written to or by him and a picture does help his case. It's so sad Okita didn't like/want to write as much. We could have had a better understanding of the character. Since he was so much liked by his allies and friends and so much feared/hated by the Imperials, we only have an all-white/all-black depiction of him. A lot of media seems to go with "he was nice with his friends but was all messed up inside, look at that body count !". And lets not even talk about how his tuberculosis is ramped up to eleven cause draaammaa ! In truth, tuberculosis can take up to 10 years before acting up. He may very well have been infected as a child ! I know most historians believe that whatever happened, he only started to be real sick long after the Ikedaya raid.

[Huntok4r]

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I'm under the impression that Hijikata was always close, no matter the version. Maybe having lots of testimonies, letters written to or by him and a picture does help his case. It's so sad Okita didn't like/want to write as much. We could have had a better understanding of the character. Since he was so much liked by his allies and friends and so much feared/hated by the Imperials, we only have an all-white/all-black depiction of him. A lot of media seems to go with "he was nice with his friends but was all messed up inside, look at that body count !". And lets not even talk about how his tuberculosis is ramped up to eleven cause draaammaa ! In truth, tuberculosis can take up to 10 years before acting up. He may very well have been infected as a child ! I know most historians believe that whatever happened, he only started to be real sick long after the Ikedaya raid.

Oh that’s definitely clear. Reading his Wikipedia page alone can be confusing with it stating depending on who you asked he was cordial and polite and considered handsome but others stating him rude and unkind and very unattractive. Guess Hijikata making it as far as he did and as well known as he was at least allowed a semi concrete image to form.

[Metalhen]

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Oh that’s definitely clear. Reading his Wikipedia page alone can be confusing with it stating depending on who you asked he was cordial and polite and considered handsome but others stating him rude and unkind and very unattractive. Guess Hijikata making it as far as he did and as well known as he was at least allowed a semi concrete image to form.

True, true... Even his haikus help, as bad as they are XD ! You can learn a lot from someone's writings, even poetry -> what they like, their state of mind... It shows between the lines, even when you try to hide it.

I think Okita was able to be both cordial and rude depending on who he was talking to. I read he could cry in front of Kondo like a child, he seemed to like spending time with Hijikata, he had a great relationship with Sannan... A japanese fan once posted a translation from one of their history book, it was a story from one member of the 1st division about Okita. One of his men had had a falling out with another member of the Shinsengumi. Said member then tried to stab him in the back in retaliation while that 1st division soldier was training in the backyard... except Okita and Hijikata were also there, playing a game of shogi. When Okita saw the attempted assault, he jumped on his feets, toppling the board, went right for the would-be murderer and beat him up real good. Then he grounded his face on the ground til only a bloody pulp was left, lecturing him at the top of his lungs about back-stabbing. All the while, Hijikata was on the side, quietly picking up the pieces of shogi and the board. Then Okita came back and they started a new game.

I was just WTH. The guy that got beaten went on to rant everywhere that Okita was a bloody savage and Hijikata was as mad for not stopping him. So you know, grudges and all. That's how legends are born haha !

[Huntok4r]

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True, true... Even his haikus help, as bad as they are XD ! You can learn a lot from someone's writings, even poetry -> what they like, their state of mind... It shows between the lines, even when you try to hide it.

I think Okita was able to be both cordial and rude depending on who he was talking to. I read he could cry in front of Kondo like a child, he seemed to like spending time with Hijikata, he had a great relationship with Sannan... A japanese fan once posted a translation from one of their history book, it was a story from one member of the 1st division about Okita. One of his men had had a falling out with another member of the Shinsengumi. Said member then tried to stab him in the back in retaliation while that 1st division soldier was training in the backyard... except Okita and Hijikata were also there, playing a game of shogi. When Okita saw the attempted assault, he jumped on his feets, toppling the board, went right for the would-be murderer and beat him up real good. Then he grounded his face on the ground til only a bloody pulp was left, lecturing him at the top of his lungs about back-stabbing. All the while, Hijikata was on the side, quietly picking up the pieces of shogi and the board. Then Okita came back and they started a new game.

I was just WTH. The guy that got beaten went on to rant everywhere that Okita was a bloody savage and Hijikata was as mad for not stopping him. So you know, grudges and all. That's how legends are born haha !

The more I found out about them the wilder they get, please someone in the west aside from Romulus Hillsborough (I’ve never read his works but looking into reviews he seems to have some biases in the group and apparently drew information from fictional works) like them and translate or write about them!!
I will buy all of it omg

[Metalhen]

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The more I found out about them the wilder they get, please someone in the west aside from Romulus Hillsborough (I’ve never read his works but looking into reviews he seems to have some biases in the group and apparently drew information from fictional works) like them and translate or write about them!!
I will buy all of it omg

Same I would love that. It may not have been back then but I find it funny as hell. Everyone is always saying "bleh, Europe, always at war and starting 2WW" but man, we're sissies when you look at stories concerning only simple families or militias of other countries ! Russia's History is the same. There are so much WTF tales of backstabbing, weird revenge plots, sassy exchanges between friends or ennemies it would make it to fantasy of the year or game of the year ten times over. Japan too and China looks the same (just look up the Three Kingdoms Era).

[Huntok4r]

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The more I found out about them the wilder they get, please someone in the west aside from Romulus Hillsborough (I’ve never read his works but looking into reviews he seems to have some biases in the group and apparently drew information from fictional works) like them and translate or write about them!!
I will buy all of it omg

Same I would love that. It may not have been back then but I find it funny as hell. Everyone is always saying "bleh, Europe, always at war and starting 2WW" but man, we're sissies when you look at stories concerning only simple families or militias of other countries ! Russia's History is the same. There are so much WTF tales of backstabbing, weird revenge plots, sassy exchanges between friends or ennemies it would make it to fantasy of the year or game of the year ten times over. Japan too and China looks the same (just look up the Three Kingdoms Era).

Yeah Three Kingdoms is wild omg
I wish more people would look into this stuff so it would be translated to English than being stuck with like 2-3 books.