Do you think Chizuru is boring?

[Huntok4r]

I've been a pretty big fan of the Hakuoki series for some time and I like to read reviews and forums at times just to see talking points with others and see other opinions.
I was surprised to see one not necessarily common but oft repeated opinion is that Chizuru is boring or annoying.
I never really felt that way, I do see how she wasn't necessarily a fighter or bold but I always felt like that a result of the time period and well she DOES fight in some routes or gets to being bold to aid whomever she is romancing or to tell Kazuma to back off or chill. I remember at least one being upset she never used her oni abilities but in her defense she never learned to use them nor was aware she was even an oni until recently. Others were frustrated with her talking habits though it seemed implied she didn't really have friends as a kid so she didn't seem to know how to socialize well.

I'm curious what others think.

[Vetr]

It is useless criticising her powers, they better criticise her awareness. She is more powerful in movies yet too fake to me.
I personally don't think she is boring or annoying although I am not surprised people expressing their annoyance against her. They are definitely not bored even if they say so (feminist instincts I suppose), they simply can't stand this type of female figure and so much dominance on her. Yes, if you look back many women were like her, it is kind of like she is representing 1800s Japanese women. However, there are still many things I oppose with.
Ask yourself, before hating her, did you really put yourself in her shoes? In my opinion, I did. She has opportunities unlike others in society. Chizuru's awareness about his father and his father's activities are pretty low to me. I don't think I would be that ignorant. Let's say I didn't bother studying medicine. Still if I knew I was different than others, I'd look for meaning of being oni. Knew what my father is up to especially when the family members are only me and my father (2 people is so limited there can't be status at all). And if I didn't have clue about politics before, after starting to live with Shinsengumi I'd absolutely learn in temple's library or say I hit my head and still didn't care politics, I wouldn't (accidentally or not) humiliate Shinpachi for she is the one who should blush in the case.
But I like her. She has a god-like empathy ability which I envy. If I were brought to temple, probably they wouldn't let a grumpy person like me live. She is adapted to them which was the only thing expected from her.
There is also other part of perspective, no one express their fear against anything. In Reimeiroku, captains were pretty cool when they first encountered with furies and in the games any ronin is okay with furies aswell (nonsense).
Still, at the end, this anime is more realistic than many slice of life and all historical animes people can't fantasize about it. Violet Evergarden is full of cliches. Over-dramatising, a heroic protagonist, anxiety of satisfying the west led it to top. Chizuru is not an exception in powers (actually just like many of us), and people find it uncomfortable.
For animes (game is another story for another time), if they didn't put this show on market by sexualising men or et cetera and had good openings, they'd have a better audience and understand Chizuru. There is quite a lore in the background and this connects and develops figures, but you can't expect everyone look for it when you sell it so cheap at the beginning.

[Huntok4r]

Originally posted by Vetr:

It is useless criticising her powers, they better criticise her awareness. She is more powerful in movies yet too fake to me.
I personally don't think she is boring or annoying although I am not surprised people expressing their annoyance against her. They are definitely not bored even if they say so (feminist instincts I suppose), they simply can't stand this type of female figure and so much dominance on her. Yes, if you look back many women were like her, it is kind of like she is representing 1800s Japanese women. However, there are still many things I oppose with.
Ask yourself, before hating her, did you really put yourself in her shoes? In my opinion, I did. She has opportunities unlike others in society. Chizuru's awareness about his father and his father's activities are pretty low to me. I don't think I would be that ignorant. Let's say I didn't bother studying medicine. Still if I knew I was different than others, I'd look for meaning of being oni. Knew what my father is up to especially when the family members are only me and my father (2 people is so limited there can't be status at all). And if I didn't have clue about politics before, after starting to live with Shinsengumi I'd absolutely learn in temple's library or say I hit my head and still didn't care politics, I wouldn't (accidentally or not) humiliate Shinpachi for she is the one who should blush in the case.
But I like her. She has a god-like empathy ability which I envy. If I were brought to temple, probably they wouldn't let a grumpy person like me live. She is adapted to them which was the only thing expected from her.
There is also other part of perspective, no one express their fear against anything. In Reimeiroku, captains were pretty cool when they first encountered with furies and in the games any ronin is okay with furies aswell (nonsense).
Still, at the end, this anime is more realistic than many slice of life and all historical animes people can't fantasize about it. Violet Evergarden is full of cliches. Over-dramatising, a heroic protagonist, anxiety of satisfying the west led it to top. Chizuru is not an exception in powers (actually just like many of us), and people find it uncomfortable.
For animes (game is another story for another time), if they didn't put this show on market by sexualising men or et cetera and had good openings, they'd have a better audience and understand Chizuru. There is quite a lore in the background and this connects and develops figures, but you can't expect everyone look for it when you sell it so cheap at the beginning.

Ahhhhhhh!! this is such a good reply and hit the points I was thinking of when it came to why people thought that, that she just isn't strong in a feminist sense in that she isn't take charge and fight your own fights kind of character. I always found her strong but in an emotional sense, like you say god like empathy. I feel while she wasn't take charge she did hold characters together when they needed it (like Okita and Hijikata) so she isn't a fighter but she was strong in her own sort of way. And god she really was dense, I kinda feel that was more for the sake of educating the player and keeping them in the dark but she really was unaware of anything. I still love the series and admittedly like Chizuru, she and Cardia Beckford from Code;Realize are favorites in otoge protagonists. But it's nice to see someone breakdown their thoughts on her in detail. And that not everyone hates her lol.

That's true for sure though. If the series had a wider audience and wasn't exclusively at women and male attracted persons people would probably be more lenient on Chizuru and understand her behavior more.
Thanks for your thoughts!!

[Vetr]

Originally posted by Huntok4r:

Originally posted by Vetr:

It is useless criticising her powers, they better criticise her awareness. She is more powerful in movies yet too fake to me.
I personally don't think she is boring or annoying although I am not surprised people expressing their annoyance against her. They are definitely not bored even if they say so (feminist instincts I suppose), they simply can't stand this type of female figure and so much dominance on her. Yes, if you look back many women were like her, it is kind of like she is representing 1800s Japanese women. However, there are still many things I oppose with.
Ask yourself, before hating her, did you really put yourself in her shoes? In my opinion, I did. She has opportunities unlike others in society. Chizuru's awareness about his father and his father's activities are pretty low to me. I don't think I would be that ignorant. Let's say I didn't bother studying medicine. Still if I knew I was different than others, I'd look for meaning of being oni. Knew what my father is up to especially when the family members are only me and my father (2 people is so limited there can't be status at all). And if I didn't have clue about politics before, after starting to live with Shinsengumi I'd absolutely learn in temple's library or say I hit my head and still didn't care politics, I wouldn't (accidentally or not) humiliate Shinpachi for she is the one who should blush in the case.
But I like her. She has a god-like empathy ability which I envy. If I were brought to temple, probably they wouldn't let a grumpy person like me live. She is adapted to them which was the only thing expected from her.
There is also other part of perspective, no one express their fear against anything. In Reimeiroku, captains were pretty cool when they first encountered with furies and in the games any ronin is okay with furies aswell (nonsense).
Still, at the end, this anime is more realistic than many slice of life and all historical animes people can't fantasize about it. Violet Evergarden is full of cliches. Over-dramatising, a heroic protagonist, anxiety of satisfying the west led it to top. Chizuru is not an exception in powers (actually just like many of us), and people find it uncomfortable.
For animes (game is another story for another time), if they didn't put this show on market by sexualising men or et cetera and had good openings, they'd have a better audience and understand Chizuru. There is quite a lore in the background and this connects and develops figures, but you can't expect everyone look for it when you sell it so cheap at the beginning.

Ahhhhhhh!! this is such a good reply and hit the points I was thinking of when it came to why people thought that, that she just isn't strong in a feminist sense in that she isn't take charge and fight your own fights kind of character. I always found her strong but in an emotional sense, like you say god like empathy. I feel while she wasn't take charge she did hold characters together when they needed it (like Okita and Hijikata) so she isn't a fighter but she was strong in her own sort of way. And god she really was dense, I kinda feel that was more for the sake of educating the player and keeping them in the dark but she really was unaware of anything. I still love the series and admittedly like Chizuru, she and Cardia Beckford from Code;Realize are favorites in otoge protagonists. But it's nice to see someone breakdown their thoughts on her in detail. And that not everyone hates her lol.

That's true for sure though. If the series had a wider audience and wasn't exclusively at women and male attracted persons people would probably be more lenient on Chizuru and understand her behavior more.
Thanks for your thoughts!!

Hah. Souji and Toshi are my two favourites. I believe those two needed her the most to keep up but I don't necessarily think Toshi needed her as a lover, a sister maybe.
By the way don't mistake me, I don't say Chizuru is stupid. She is just not that quick-witted. After Ikedaya, the debate between Kazama and Chizuru at the bridge proved her logical sense nicely. But I'd expected more later on, and there hadn't been "more". Her addressings in Hajime's route were also appealing but he disagreed and didn't like them, well I didn't like him either lol (his personality, but I appreciated his actions towards Aizu clan and Itou).
Hakuouki was my first otome game so can't say I know about this genre. I like playing story rich but otome is very new to me. Sometime later I played Amnesia, didn't like.

[Huntok4r]

Originally posted by Vetr:

Hah. Souji and Toshi are my two favourites. I believe those two needed her the most to keep up but I don't necessarily think Toshi needed her as a lover, a sister maybe.
By the way don't mistake me, I don't say Chizuru is stupid. She is just not that quick-witted. After Ikedaya, the debate between Kazama and Chizuru at the bridge proved her logical sense nicely. But I'd expected more later on, and there hadn't been "more". Her addressings in Hajime's route were also appealing but he disagreed and didn't like them, well I didn't like him either lol (his personality, but I appreciated his actions towards Aizu clan and Itou).
Hakuouki was my first otome game so can't say I know about this genre. I like playing story rich but otome is very new to me. Sometime later I played Amnesia, didn't like.

While Hakuoki isn't my first otoge it is my favorite for sure. I do agree Souji and Hijikata needed her the most, and its likely my bias as he is my favorite but I do feel Chizuru and Hijikata worked best as lovers if only because that's when they both felt the most comfortable talking and caring for each other. Though I feel all around she is important to all of the guys in different ways.
She definitely isn't stupid, I feel dense is the right word to be honest. And I like Saito enough, I can't say I really dislike any one route, but he isn't a favorite for sure. I have Amnesia purchased but I haven't sat to play it, though I often hear it has some good routes but certain characters aren't pleasant to go through.
Depending on systems you have, Code:Realize is a great otoge. And I personally enjoy 7'Scarlet though the protagonist isn't exactly the most driven. I feel a lot of people underestimate how interesting otoges or female aimed romance visual novels can be. I own and have played a good few and some of them have my favorite plots or concepts. I guess there's the stigma of just being romantic and at that the idea they'll just be games with a loose plot tying together images of bishonen.

[Metalhen]

Originally posted by Vetr:

Hah. Souji and Toshi are my two favourites. I believe those two needed her the most to keep up but I don't necessarily think Toshi needed her as a lover, a sister maybe.
By the way don't mistake me, I don't say Chizuru is stupid. She is just not that quick-witted. After Ikedaya, the debate between Kazama and Chizuru at the bridge proved her logical sense nicely. But I'd expected more later on, and there hadn't been "more". Her addressings in Hajime's route were also appealing but he disagreed and didn't like them, well I didn't like him either lol (his personality, but I appreciated his actions towards Aizu clan and Itou).
Hakuouki was my first otome game so can't say I know about this genre. I like playing story rich but otome is very new to me. Sometime later I played Amnesia, didn't like.

In order to get the whole picture, it's even better to play the prequel and the dlcs (side stories, whatever) and if possible listen to the numerous drama cds. But alas, most of it hasn't been localized and is not available in the West. You can still find good fan translations on the net however.

From what I gathered, most people complaining about Chizuru are in fact anime-only fans (where, admitedly, she doesn't do much except serving tea and crying "oh no, please don't fight" to every male that comes her way). They never saw her in game or side materials where she never hesitates to put her foot down, with some of the boys more than other. Surprinsigly, she isn't shy about putting Okita in his place from times to times despite him being one of the most dangerous. She does the same with Kazama if sufficiently riled up.

Also, a lot of western fans have little understanding of japanese society, especially Edo-era society. By leaving her town at 15 all alone, disguising herself as a man, trying to fight a bit and living 4 years with men who are not her family nor her husband, marrying one of them without anyone's blessing, Chizuru has become a delinquent in the eyes of her peers, a lost girl. If she were to return to a normal life but people learned about these past 4 years, I can guarantee no man in his right mind would want her as a wife. She risked a lot to find her father and again risked a lot following a rebellious militia til the bitter end. In that sense, she is a very active heroine.

About her skills with a sword, it's already amazing she was taught something at all. And the game itself lampashaded that what she knows are the basis and OF COURSE she can't compete with older men who have been trained since they were as young as five sometimes. Most of the cast being in their 20s-30s, it means they have been training in martial arts for close to 20 years against Chizuru ridiculous... what, 2-5 years ?

That said, you're quite right about her being desperately needed by Souji and Toshi. As the story of Hakuouki goes, we're told the two of them were "raised" more or less as brothers (Souji being with Kondo since childhood and Toshi joining them in his late teens). They're very different, can't see eye-to-eye because of it but could get along if not for their semi-subconscious fight for their older brother/father figure attention. A fight Hijikata is winning effortlessly just because... eh, he has more in common with Kondo ! Life is unfair. For Souji, who was orphaned at a tender age, being left in the shadows is agony. Especially since he is constantly treated as the baby of the family. So Chizuru coming into their life was a blessing in disguise. Kondo took a shine to her from the start and treats her like a daughter and Souji and Toshi follow along and treat her as a younger sister. It's obvious in some routes and Okita says so in the movies (something along the lines of "guess I'll play the big brother again"). And they needed it. That's the kind of third party they needed for their weird family of sorts to work.

Okita needed a younger sibbling to feel needed, admired and an adult...
Hijikata needed a younger sibbling to calm down his younger brother and bring some peace and smiles to his surroundings (he is obviously heavily depressed, especially in Edo Blossoms)
Even Kondo needed the girl, if only because she distracts him from smothering the other two, which he does without even being aware.

I always felt weird too about Hijikata and Chizuru being lovers, maybe because of the big age gap. But why not ?

I like her more with Okita if only because of the many parallels between the two and their love-story doubling as a coming-of-age story -> the two youngest sibblings in their (adoptive) family, loving and admiring their father-figure very much but having tense relationships with their big brothers (blood-related or not), with a difficult past they can't seem to let go off and which is hindering their growth somehow. Their romance is as much about letting their past, family members and especially the latters' expectations of them go as kissing the hell out of each-other.

Someone once lampshaded that Okita is the only one who gets to see Chizuru in her oni form. I find it meaningfull in the sense that they helped each-other become their own person so of course they can see each-other's "true face" (Okita's is that of a crying boy afraid to end up an orphan again). It's because Chizuru was supportive that Okita could patch things up with Hijikata and it's because Okita was supportive that Chizuru found the courage to stand up to her terrible family and say "no" (and somewhat patch things up with her father).

[Huntok4r]

Originally posted by Metalhen:

Originally posted by Vetr:

Hah. Souji and Toshi are my two favourites. I believe those two needed her the most to keep up but I don't necessarily think Toshi needed her as a lover, a sister maybe.
By the way don't mistake me, I don't say Chizuru is stupid. She is just not that quick-witted. After Ikedaya, the debate between Kazama and Chizuru at the bridge proved her logical sense nicely. But I'd expected more later on, and there hadn't been "more". Her addressings in Hajime's route were also appealing but he disagreed and didn't like them, well I didn't like him either lol (his personality, but I appreciated his actions towards Aizu clan and Itou).
Hakuouki was my first otome game so can't say I know about this genre. I like playing story rich but otome is very new to me. Sometime later I played Amnesia, didn't like.

In order to get the whole picture, it's even better to play the prequel and the dlcs (side stories, whatever) and if possible listen to the numerous drama cds. But alas, most of it hasn't been localized and is not available in the West. You can still find good fan translations on the net however.

From what I gathered, most people complaining about Chizuru are in fact anime-only fans (where, admitedly, she doesn't do much except serving tea and crying "oh no, please don't fight" to every male that comes her way). They never saw her in game or side materials where she never hesitates to put her foot down, with some of the boys more than other. Surprinsigly, she isn't shy about putting Okita in his place from times to times despite him being one of the most dangerous. She does the same with Kazama if sufficiently riled up.

Also, a lot of western fans have little understanding of japanese society, especially Edo-era society. By leaving her town at 15 all alone, disguising herself as a man, trying to fight a bit and living 4 years with men who are not her family nor her husband, marrying one of them without anyone's blessing, Chizuru has become a delinquent in the eyes of her peers, a lost girl. If she were to return to a normal life but people learned about these past 4 years, I can guarantee no man in his right mind would want her as a wife. She risked a lot to find her father and again risked a lot following a rebellious militia til the bitter end. In that sense, she is a very active heroine.

About her skills with a sword, it's already amazing she was taught something at all. And the game itself lampashaded that what she knows are the basis and OF COURSE she can't compete with older men who have been trained since they were as young as five sometimes. Most of the cast being in their 20s-30s, it means they have been training in martial arts for close to 20 years against Chizuru ridiculous... what, 2-5 years ?

That said, you're quite right about her being desperately needed by Souji and Toshi. As the story of Hakuouki goes, we're told the two of them were "raised" more or less as brothers (Souji being with Kondo since childhood and Toshi joining them in his late teens). They're very different, can't see eye-to-eye because of it but could get along if not for their semi-subconscious fight for their older brother/father figure attention. A fight Hijikata is winning effortlessly just because... eh, he has more in common with Kondo ! Life is unfair. For Souji, who was orphaned at a tender age, being left in the shadows is agony. Especially since he is constantly treated as the baby of the family. So Chizuru coming into their life was a blessing in disguise. Kondo took a shine to her from the start and treats her like a daughter and Souji and Toshi follow along and treat her as a younger sister. It's obvious in some routes and Okita says so in the movies (something along the lines of "guess I'll play the big brother again"). And they needed it. That's the kind of third party they needed for their weird family of sorts to work.

Okita needed a younger sibbling to feel needed, admired and an adult...
Hijikata needed a younger sibbling to calm down his younger brother and bring some peace and smiles to his surroundings (he is obviously heavily depressed, especially in Edo Blossoms)
Even Kondo needed the girl, if only because she distracts him from smothering the other two, which he does without even being aware.

I always felt weird too about Hijikata and Chizuru being lovers, maybe because of the big age gap. But why not ?

I like her more with Okita if only because of the many parallels between the two and their love-story doubling as a coming-of-age story -> the two youngest sibblings in their (adoptive) family, loving and admiring their father-figure very much but having tense relationships with their big brothers (blood-related or not), with a difficult past they can't seem to let go off and which is hindering their growth somehow. Their romance is as much about letting their past, family members and especially the latters' expectations of them go as kissing the hell out of each-other.

Someone once lampshaded that Okita is the only one who gets to see Chizuru in her oni form. I find it meaningfull in the sense that they helped each-other become their own person so of course they can see each-other's "true face" (Okita's is that of a crying boy afraid to end up an orphan again). It's because Chizuru was supportive that Okita could patch things up with Hijikata and it's because Okita was supportive that Chizuru found the courage to stand up to her terrible family and say "no" (and somewhat patch things up with her father).

Aaaahhhhhh! You hit on a lot of things I was thinking of when it came to those complaints, a lack of understanding when it came to the era and culture, lack of prequel materials, and of course the possibility they were anime only and only saw her rather passive nature in it and assumed she was that way across the board.

And that's actually a great analysis of the Okita route. It took me a bit to enjoy his route at first because he was a tad too gungho to gut her for my tastes at first but I have to say he did grow on me by the time they were leaving Kyoto (My first experience with Hakuoki was Stories of the Shinsengumi for 3DS). I'm still biased to Hijikata but that definitely got me thinking more on Okita.
Imo, Hijikata just needs someone who can see through him, someone who doesn't rely on him being an emotional center. Certainly Chizuru relies on him to some extent but seeing him break a bit doesn't destroy her will. Hijikata through the game(s) seems to feel he needs to hold himself together lest the Shinsengumi fall apart, especially after Kondo's death, and Chizuru, I feel gives him the much needed break and support he needs.

[Metalhen]

Originally posted by Huntok4r:

Aaaahhhhhh! You hit on a lot of things I was thinking of when it came to those complaints, a lack of understanding when it came to the era and culture, lack of prequel materials, and of course the possibility they were anime only and only saw her rather passive nature in it and assumed she was that way across the board.

And that's actually a great analysis of the Okita route. It took me a bit to enjoy his route at first because he was a tad too gungho to gut her for my tastes at first but I have to say he did grow on me by the time they were leaving Kyoto (My first experience with Hakuoki was Stories of the Shinsengumi for 3DS). I'm still biased to Hijikata but that definitely got me thinking more on Okita.
Imo, Hijikata just needs someone who can see through him, someone who doesn't rely on him being an emotional center. Certainly Chizuru relies on him to some extent but seeing him break a bit doesn't destroy her will. Hijikata through the game(s) seems to feel he needs to hold himself together lest the Shinsengumi fall apart, especially after Kondo's death, and Chizuru, I feel gives him the much needed break and support he needs.

Thank you ! I ended up first on Okita's route because idk, he has a magnetic personality I guess. And since on your first playthrough there are so much new characters to keep track off and he's the second one you meet, well... I stuck with him because I could remember his name and face and ended up caring for him.

The death threats didn't bother me cause well, I could understand the situation the first time around : they are a militia, they have ennemies, secrets to keep, they find this weird disguised girl who could very well be a spy (wouldn't be the first one in the history of Japan) and who happens to be the daughter of the man who gave them that terrible Water of Life to begin with... Of course they would be wary and consider killing her. Fans also tends to forget a little too easily that neither Hijikata nor Saito disagreed with Okita. Hijikata too is a master of death threats (and torture) and was just bothered a bit by the idea of maybe killing an innocent civilian. Same goes with the baka trio : dear Heisuke was out for Chizuru's blood before learning she was a girl. Inoue and Kondo were the only ones calling them all out for being needlessly cruel.

As for the following death threats, well, I grew up with boys and it didn't shock me, especially when they are delivered oh-so-convincingly lol ! It's the same as dumping a spider in your hair or pushing you a bit roughly on the swing. Boys get a weird kick out of hearing girls scream ! It was obvious that it took Okita only 4 weeks to go from "I will really kill you because that's my job" to "I'll act all big and scary because I love to hear you squeal". Giving the jump scare to Chizuru or stealing Hijikata's haikus is obviously his way of spending quality family time. I think Chizuru got it after seeing him play with kids, she never mentions being frightened by him and his threats after that event.

I understood quite quickly Okita's relationship with Kondo but not with Hijikata. It took me the whole game and getting on Hijikata's route last to finally realize the brotherly bond between the two. It's more obvious in the prequel and side materials and since they're not localized, a lot of people in the west tend to see the three as a sorta weird boy love triangle gone wrong with Chizuru in the middle. It's sad because they're missing out on what is a (rare) good portrayal of a dysfunctionnal family. The fans who could play the prequel have almost unanimously pointed out that the family drama between the three is the real core of the story and ten times more interesting than the romance lol !

I like Hijikata but on his own because I think that's where his character shines the most, flaws and all ! But you hit the nail with Chizuru bringing him some peace and support because she does not depend on him the way the others do. And something else I noticed, she may be the only one who is really worried about his mental state. I was appalled at how blind everyone in the Shinsengumi was regarding Hijikata's worsening depression. Saito, Shinpachi and Yamazaki may have noticed but it seems like they were afraid of ending up without a leader if they dared even voice the matter. And when Hijikata ends up lashing out or breaking down, you can see all hell break loose and everyone running around like headless chikens.

Of course he would drive himself mad and to an early grave because he's quite aware he's the glu keeping everyone and everything together. This is where Kondo hurt him, albeit unknowingly, by not stepping up as a real leader and letting Hijikata shoulder everything. He was warned of it in the prequel but didn't take it seriously. This is why he breaks down so completely when he learns Hijikata has become a Fury -> in this moment, he realizes what his indecisiveness has done to Hijikata. Just a theory but I think this is one of the reason of Kondo surrendering to the Imperial Army : to try and make amends for endangering Hijikata's physical and mental health and to protect him from certain death.

Also, this is why I really loved the bad ending of Kazama (why is it not the canon one, just without having Kazama die stupidly ?). In that route, Hijikata goes off the deep end because he lost everyone and everything that mattered (Chizuru is staying with Kazama) and there's noone/nothing left to protect him from his self-destructive tendencies. It's dramatic but coherent with Hijikata's character arc and what we see of his mental state and the worsening situation of the Shinsengumi. It's also close enough to what he felt and how he acted during his last days if contemporary witnesses are to be believed (well, not like a crazy Fury of course but like a man who has given up on life itself).

And you have to admit, the sight/description of him in Fury form, covered in blood from head to toe and raving madly on top of a pile of corpses is just chilling.

[Huntok4r]

Originally posted by Metalhen:

Thank you ! I ended up first on Okita's route because idk, he has a magnetic personality I guess. And since on your first playthrough there are so much new characters to keep track off and he's the second one you meet, well... I stuck with him because I could remember his name and face and ended up caring for him.

The death threats didn't bother me cause well, I could understand the situation the first time around : they are a militia, they have ennemies, secrets to keep, they find this weird disguised girl who could very well be a spy (wouldn't be the first one in the history of Japan) and who happens to be the daughter of the man who gave them that terrible Water of Life to begin with... Of course they would be wary and consider killing her. Fans also tends to forget a little too easily that neither Hijikata nor Saito disagreed with Okita. Hijikata too is a master of death threats (and torture) and was just bothered a bit by the idea of maybe killing an innocent civilian. Same goes with the baka trio : dear Heisuke was out for Chizuru's blood before learning she was a girl. Inoue and Kondo were the only ones calling them all out for being needlessly cruel.

As for the following death threats, well, I grew up with boys and it didn't shock me, especially when they are delivered oh-so-convincingly lol ! It's the same as dumping a spider in your hair or pushing you a bit roughly on the swing. Boys get a weird kick out of hearing girls scream ! It was obvious that it took Okita only 4 weeks to go from "I will really kill you because that's my job" to "I'll act all big and scary because I love to hear you squeal". Giving the jump scare to Chizuru or stealing Hijikata's haikus is obviously his way of spending quality family time. I think Chizuru got it after seeing him play with kids, she never mentions being frightened by him and his threats after that event.

I understood quite quickly Okita's relationship with Kondo but not with Hijikata. It took me the whole game and getting on Hijikata's route last to finally realize the brotherly bond between the two. It's more obvious in the prequel and side materials and since they're not localized, a lot of people in the west tend to see the three as a sorta weird boy love triangle gone wrong with Chizuru in the middle. It's sad because they're missing out on what is a (rare) good portrayal of a dysfunctionnal family. The fans who could play the prequel have almost unanimously pointed out that the family drama between the three is the real core of the story and ten times more interesting than the romance lol !

I like Hijikata but on his own because I think that's where his character shines the most, flaws and all ! But you hit the nail with Chizuru bringing him some peace and support because she does not depend on him the way the others do. And something else I noticed, she may be the only one who is really worried about his mental state. I was appalled at how blind everyone in the Shinsengumi was regarding Hijikata's worsening depression. Saito, Shinpachi and Yamazaki may have noticed but it seems like they were afraid of ending up without a leader if they dared even voice the matter. And when Hijikata ends up lashing out or breaking down, you can see all hell break loose and everyone running around like headless chikens.

Of course he would drive himself mad and to an early grave because he's quite aware he's the glu keeping everyone and everything together. This is where Kondo hurt him, albeit unknowingly, by not stepping up as a real leader and letting Hijikata shoulder everything. He was warned of it in the prequel but didn't take it seriously. This is why he breaks down so completely when he learns Hijikata has become a Fury -> in this moment, he realizes what his indecisiveness has done to Hijikata. Just a theory but I think this is one of the reason of Kondo surrendering to the Imperial Army : to try and make amends for endangering Hijikata's physical and mental health and to protect him from certain death.

Also, this is why I really loved the bad ending of Kazama (why is it not the canon one, just without having Kazama die stupidly ?). In that route, Hijikata goes off the deep end because he lost everyone and everything that mattered (Chizuru is staying with Kazama) and there's noone/nothing left to protect him from his self-destructive tendencies. It's dramatic but coherent with Hijikata's character arc and what we see of his mental state and the worsening situation of the Shinsengumi. It's also close enough to what he felt and how he acted during his last days if contemporary witnesses are to be believed (well, not like a crazy Fury of course but like a man who has given up on life itself).

And you have to admit, the sight/description of him in Fury form, covered in blood from head to toe and raving madly on top of a pile of corpses is just chilling.

Oh, definitely! They had every reason to doubt Chizuru and they all took time to slowly trust her. Doing the Okita route you can just kinda tell when Okita shifts from distrust to just teasing. I suppose his boyish charm was never my thing, thinking on it I never did gravitate to characters like that but I can certainly appreciate them, Okita's latter half of the route has been one of my favorites and occasionally his teasing was quite endearing to me. I suppose I like the take charge kind of guys like Hijikata.

And it was the same with me for the relationships too. It took doing Okita's and having Hijikata show up and asking about him for it to hit that they care about each other, it's just super dysfunctional. And agreed there. I never did quite get that angle others saw (though from owning a few artbooks Hijikata and Okita always show in art together, typically with Chizuru between them, likely being because they're probably the most popular two) but I feel it definitely doesn't help that the prequels were never exported, I hope we get to see them some day. Since they seem to keep Hakuoki going, maybe we can hope for a remake or a rerelease one day. I'd love to see the prequels and even SSL over here. I had to import a copy of SSL. No clue what is going on but it was too cute an AU to pass up.

Definitely. And to be honest I feel Hijikata probably would have panicked had the others said anything. Seeing as he sees most of the members as family and even brothers, I feel he probably would have felt like he failed them or somehow slipped up majorly if someone pointed out his mental state. Though yes it was rather saddening to see how no one noticed, it frustrated me lol. But I also get it just wasn't a thing they talked about there. And I like that theory, Kondo hate a lot of remorse at his end, I can see him giving himself over due to guilt and maybe somehow making peace there. Just makes it that more sad to think about honestly.

Honestly this game series made me quite fascinated with that time period. In doing my research, as biased as some documents are, it's an intriguing thing to think of. The mental deterioration of man who by the end is defending basically nothing but an idea that has no chance of carrying on as by then he's the only one left who really cares about it and it's questionable if he's carrying it because he believes it or if it's because of those he lost. But that is a romanticization and we can never truly know what was going through is head and what his motives actually were. And I'm not about to say this is what the real man was like but this is what the character feels like to me and that's always why most endings without him and Chizuru together tend to break my heart. Especially with the Kazama route. I love it and hate it so much lol.
Agreed. The writing in the game can be so chilling sometimes.

[Metalhen]

Originally posted by Huntok4r:

Honestly this game series made me quite fascinated with that time period. In doing my research, as biased as some documents are, it's an intriguing thing to think of. The mental deterioration of man who by the end is defending basically nothing but an idea that has no chance of carrying on as by then he's the only one left who really cares about it and it's questionable if he's carrying it because he believes it or if it's because of those he lost. But that is a romanticization and we can never truly know what was going through is head and what his motives actually were. And I'm not about to say this is what the real man was like but this is what the character feels like to me and that's always why most endings without him and Chizuru together tend to break my heart. Especially with the Kazama route. I love it and hate it so much lol.
Agreed. The writing in the game can be so chilling sometimes.

I love how you phrased it there !

True it's romanticized so we can never now but I just base it on historical books and witness accounts, however biased they may be, that some japanese fans were kind enough to translate and quote for us. Sure, like every historical figure, there's still a mystery surrounding Hijikata but a bit less so than others because he had surviving blood relatives who testified about his character and if only because he and Kondo were writing a lot and exchanging letters with about everyone they knew so you can grasp a bit of what was going on in their heads.

Based on these documents and testimonies, Hijikata seemed to have calmed a lot in the North and become quieter and softer. He would spend time with his men and be very kind to young recruits. But IIRC, even if this was a lost battle, a lot of people were surprised and aghast when he suddenly rode out alone towards gunfire on the day he died. Both his contemporaries and historians alike seem to think that it was suicide by Imperials. Since it ended in a messy and horrible death and not the quick one he might have hoped for, it's even more tragic.

Sadly Okita didn't seem to share that love of writing hence what we know about him is what his sister, Kondo, Hijikata and Shinpachi/Saito/the kids he played with had to share.

[Huntok4r]

Originally posted by Metalhen:

I love how you phrased it there !

True it's romanticized so we can never now but I just base it on historical books and witness accounts, however biased they may be, that some japanese fans were kind enough to translate and quote for us. Sure, like every historical figure, there's still a mystery surrounding Hijikata but a bit less so than others because he had surviving blood relatives who testified about his character and if only because he and Kondo were writing a lot and exchanging letters with about everyone they knew so you can grasp a bit of what was going on in their heads.

Based on these documents and testimonies, Hijikata seemed to have calmed a lot in the North and become quieter and softer. He would spend time with his men and be very kind to young recruits. But IIRC, even if this was a lost battle, a lot of people were surprised and aghast when he suddenly rode out alone towards gunfire on the day he died. Both his contemporaries and historians alike seem to think that it was suicide by Imperials. Since it ended in a messy and horrible death and not the quick one he might have hoped for, it's even more tragic.

Sadly Okita didn't seem to share that love of writing hence what we know about him is what his sister, Kondo, Hijikata and Shinpachi/Saito/the kids he played with had to share.

Thank you! I often am concerned I come off as romanticizing the group and era when I talk about the games or just the history when I'm just interested in it more than anything.

I noticed there doesn't seem to be much on Okita, it's a bit saddening but there wasn't much documentation back then so it can't be helped. There are stories at least and in the end the games are more likely to be based on the story versions of the people than the actual people. IIRC there is actually a story about Okita chasing a black cat to catch for luck when he was forced to stay back for his tuberculosis and failing and resigning that his disease is too far along now. Sorry for the downer story there lol. I remember googling why he's often depicted with cats and that's the result I found. I'm still digging around for more but I often only come across more legends and rumors, while not bad and often just adding to the mystique, it can get frustrating if you just want know what's generally considered the truth. Admittedly it's heartbreaking to know he may have just committed suicide through the imperial army.
I'd honestly kill to have Shinpachi's stories published in English. I've only ever found one book on the group in English and just reading review it's apparently not well done.
Tbh I'd also kill to have the popular Shinsengumi! drama in English too. It'd just be nice to not have to dig through the same few historical posts and blogs to find much of the same stuff.

[Metalhen]

From what I gathered from japanese fans about the story with the black cat, they're not sure it's true. Other versions say he wanted to catch it to kill it, because he was convinced it was a death god coming for his soul. It may well be urban legend because symboliiiiism. But Okita may have hallucinated about cats because of the fever. What seems to be true is that he hallucinated about Sannan coming back for him (both Heisuke and him never got quite over his death, they admired his knowledge and piety). And he was found dead in the garden outside, lying face down. Why he stepped out at that moment, nobody knows. Maybe he just tried to call for help because it became too hard to breath.
We have documents, at least more than Sengoku Era, letters, books, pictures... But sadly it's not translated. It's sad we have to rely on other fans who don't always have the patience to translate history books (which I can understand).

Shinpachi's stories would be great for a start, even though we have to remember his bias since he left the Shinsengumi after a falling out with Kondo. I heard it's better to read what he wrote towards the end of his life since by then, he was a bit more objective and had mellowed out. Japanese think you still have to take what he writes with a grain of salt since he was known to quite enjoy stealing the spotlight haha ! Good old Shinpatsuan !

Fans forget because he was added later in the game but Kazue Souma too was close to the core family of the Shinsengumi too. The game seems to present him same as Chizuru, as a younger brother figure for Hijikata and Okita who also kisses the ground Kondo walks on. I found it funny and endearing. I was heartbroken to read that he too killed himself after being freed from prison. In the end, all of them died violent deaths.

IDK if you played it but there's another otome about Sengoku Era (the one before Edo) which is really interesting : Nightshade. When I played it, I could recognize the different locations for each scene since the first half happens in Kyoto. You also get to meet key figures of the era like Ieyasu Tokugawa and it helps understand how Edo Era came to be. This is exactly what Hijikata and the others fought to protect, these are the historical figures and tales they grew up with so the game took on a special dimension for me just coming out of Hakuouki.

[Huntok4r]

Originally posted by Metalhen:

Yeah, I've read those too, there's one that also claims he intended to kill it for luck or to simply keep it around for luck, from those posts it said that black cats are lucky in Japan. It's unfortunate to know the only well known stories of Okita seem to be about his slow death. Though it seems that might be one of the reasons he's favored. A tragic hero thing.

I remember hearing about that. He had a tendency to play himself up or make fights out to be probably far more exciting than they probably would have been. He seemed to be quite the big talker but quite entertaining. It makes sense when he mellowed his stories would seem more true to what happened.

Ahhh yeah I've been trying to dig up more on him, its been difficult as I can only find a historical samurai wiki, otherwise its his Hakuoki depiction. I loved his route so I wanted to know more but it's not turning out well for me. And I guessed that would happen sadly. By then he'd have a reputation within the nation and I'm sure the trauma would weigh him down.
At least there's the fictional happy ending...Even Harada possibly died a rather violent, tragic death after his departure.

I want to play it. I found it before and just haven't had the chance to buy it yet. I would love to give it a try soon!

[Metalhen]

Originally posted by Huntok4r:

Originally posted by Metalhen:

Yeah, I've read those too, there's one that also claims he intended to kill it for luck or to simply keep it around for luck, from those posts it said that black cats are lucky in Japan. It's unfortunate to know the only well known stories of Okita seem to be about his slow death. Though it seems that might be one of the reasons he's favored. A tragic hero thing.

I remember hearing about that. He had a tendency to play himself up or make fights out to be probably far more exciting than they probably would have been. He seemed to be quite the big talker but quite entertaining. It makes sense when he mellowed his stories would seem more true to what happened.

Ahhh yeah I've been trying to dig up more on him, its been difficult as I can only find a historical samurai wiki, otherwise its his Hakuoki depiction. I loved his route so I wanted to know more but it's not turning out well for me. And I guessed that would happen sadly. By then he'd have a reputation within the nation and I'm sure the trauma would weigh him down.
At least there's the fictional happy ending...Even Harada possibly died a rather violent, tragic death after his departure.

I want to play it. I found it before and just haven't had the chance to buy it yet. I would love to give it a try soon!

Yeah Okita just fit into that trope most countries in the world seem to love : a promising young man dying tragically from an incurable illness/injury before he had the time to fully shine. Bonus points if he already had a tragic life and was an orphan. There are two stories about his trouble with women : First one is that at 15 or so, a woman fell in love with him but when he rejected her, she tried to off herself and Kondo had to intervene and patch things up and find the girl a husband... Second one is he fell in love with a doctor's daughter (*cough*Chizuru*cough), there were talks about marrying but it fell through, mainly because he lived a dangerous life and didn't want to bring a woman into it.

For juicy gossip, you have far more stuff on Hijikata's side because he was handsome and he knew it. I'm almost disappointed Hakuouki didn't show that side of him. Ladykiller Hijikata is arrogant and fun as hell if witnesses are to be believed. And he was sooooo rubbing it in the face of his friends too, especially Shinpachi ! He would receive love letters at all times, gifts, all the geishas would flock to him and he had an habit of stealing the mistresses of others.

And would you know ? Bumbling dad Kondo was the same in that regard. He was very popular with women in Kyoto because he was honest and kind, a stark contrast to the average Kyoto man who was reputedly cold and arrogant. And he was fun too.

It's hard to find stuff on Souma but I guess it's because he was very young still and sadly couldn't do much to turn the tides.

As for Chizuru, she seems to be a composite character of the woman Okita loved (a shy doctor's daughter), Hijikata's page whose name was close to Yukimura and who was apparently very effeminate but loyal to a fault... and a bit of both Saito and Harada's wives.

[Huntok4r]

Originally posted by Metalhen:

Yeah Okita just fit into that trope most countries in the world seem to love : a promising young man dying tragically from an incurable illness/injury before he had the time to fully shine. Bonus points if he already had a tragic life and was an orphan. There are two stories about his trouble with women : First one is that at 15 or so, a woman fell in love with him but when he rejected her, she tried to off herself and Kondo had to intervene and patch things up and find the girl a husband... Second one is he fell in love with a doctor's daughter (*cough*Chizuru*cough), there were talks about marrying but it fell through, mainly because he lived a dangerous life and didn't want to bring a woman into it.

For juicy gossip, you have far more stuff on Hijikata's side because he was handsome and he knew it. I'm almost disappointed Hakuouki didn't show that side of him. Ladykiller Hijikata is arrogant and fun as hell if witnesses are to be believed. And he was sooooo rubbing it in the face of his friends too, especially Shinpachi ! He would receive love letters at all times, gifts, all the geishas would flock to him and he had an habit of stealing the mistresses of others.

And would you know ? Bumbling dad Kondo was the same in that regard. He was very popular with women in Kyoto because he was honest and kind, a stark contrast to the average Kyoto man who was reputedly cold and arrogant. And he was fun too.

It's hard to find stuff on Souma but I guess it's because he was very young still and sadly couldn't do much to turn the tides.

As for Chizuru, she seems to be a composite character of the woman Okita loved (a shy doctor's daughter), Hijikata's page whose name was close to Yukimura and who was apparently very effeminate but loyal to a fault... and a bit of both Saito and Harada's wives.

Oh wow I hadn't heard about his romantic drama omg. Though I do vaguely recall the doctor's daughter part. Okita seems popular for romantic things, he's in a popular long running shoujo manga called Kaze Hikaru, a series Viz is STILL 20 volumes behind unfortunately.
And he does show in other games and series, oddly enough though he seems to be made a female pretty often? Apparently in Ruroni Kenshin he's made a tomboyish girl. And as I'm a bit of a Fate fan he's a girl there too though his disease is played primarily for laughs but there are moments in which it tugs at the heart, the ending to some of the GUDAGUDA events (events around Nobunaga and Okita in the game) seem always get a bit sad.

Oh my! I recall he was supposed to be handsome and a bit of womanizer but I didn't expect that lol. IIRC there was a brief and somewhat odd little public research thing that ended up generally agreeing he was the most appealing Bakumatsu man, but it probably helps he actually has a well known photo as opposed to some of the men. I would have loved to see that actually, and it does seem to allude to something like that if Chizuru doesn't go with them to party (though if I'm correct that's Kimigiku simply talking to him). Though I do somewhat get why they would avoid it, maybe so as not to make the player feel like there's competition? And Shinpachi and Harada had already managed to fill the player and playboy type there. Though, again, that would have been funny to see. Even if just for a scene.

To be honest, I cannot blame anyone there. He's endearing and kind, no one can be faulted for crushing on him a bit lol.

It is, unfortunately. That's part of having such a short life though, I suppose. Not mention the possibility of documents being lost or destroyed here or there.

I hadn't actually thought of who she could be based on though that makes a lot of sense. And I some suspicions when it came to Hijikata's page but wasn't sure if that was done for the same of simply matching to history or actually being based on him. I really shoud do more research into them. There has to be more sites or books to locate. But it really does make sense if they did, for the sake of making the relationships meld more naturally.

[Metalhen]

Okita suffers the same as Nobunaga in that people can't seem to represent them in anime/manga as anyting other than girls or reincarnated girls which is kinda annoying and starting to annoy a good part of the japanese fanbase it seems. There are enough strong girls figures in their History, semi-legendary or well-documented, to not need to genderbend important male warriors left and right. This is just pandering to the otaku part of the fan base who wants swords and tits.

If you want some good depiction of a (male) Nobunaga, there's an ongoing anime about him that started last summer. I think the title is Kochouki Wakaki Nobunaga or something. Apparently, it's accurate (as accurate as can ben since most of what we know from Sengoku Era are hearsays, that's what civil war does to History). It's interesting because he started the whole mess that would lead to Edo Era, the isolation of Japan and the way foreigners were perceived (which ended up playing a great part in the turmoils of the Shinsengumi). He's also a fascinating man in his own right.

Yeah, I heard about Kaze Hikaru, it seems cool. I also heard there's boy love all around if you aren't Okita or Hijikata who are depicted as straight haha ! But it's not inaccurate since homosexual sex was tolerated during centuries in Japan. It even was expected. The gender roles were strictly divided and large group of young men would find themselves spending months, if not years, far from their homes and lovers/wives because of work or war. Since traveling from one town to another took weeks, they couldn't drop by for a quick kiss and red-light districts can only be fun for so long. So it didn't strike anyone as odd that two men would engage in a sexual affair and it was even codified so it would always be an older man with a younger man in his teens. The older would teach the younger everything he knew and when the latter hit adulthood, they would break up the affair (or carry it on but in the shadows because it was then seen as weird, like as weird as a grown man still clinging to his mama).

These sort of affairs were going on in the Shinsengumi as well. Kondo wrote about it in one letter, saying the boys were bored out of their minds and had decided to start some "interesting activities" but it escalated so much that every time he went home, he felt like stepping in the red-light district all over again. He was amused by it if a bit annoyed. But some time latter, he and Hijikata decided to ban homosexual relationships in the Shinsengumi because there were lots of love triangles and the other boys were ressorting to murder out of jealousy. It got quite out of hand haha !

I've recently read a few historians wonder if Hijikata and Okita did anything of the sort, based on some letters and haikus from the former. If they did, they kept silent about it and Kondo never knew or he would have written about it for sure. It's weird imagining them that way though. Some fans do because the anime was so awkward about the whole family drama but when you've played the games, sequels and read side-materials, it just feels like incest even if they're not blood-related !

No signs of anything going on between Okita and Saito though, except friendship. Shinpachi went on about how Okita feared Saito's skills but it seems weird and contradicts the testimonies of other people in the area, like the parents of the kids Okita played with.

BTW I've seen fans asking for a Kondo route too haha but I can't even, unless it's a friendship route haha ! I mean, I don't know how they could miss all the little hints that he treats Chizuru as a daughter. It would feel so weird to romance him even though I'm pretty sure he's a dear !

About Kenshin, it's more complicated. The main characters of Kenshin are based on historical samurais of the era, Shinsengumi or not, but they are pure OCs. The tomboyish girl is one of them. The real Okita does show up though, in a flashback I think. He is depicted as a very young boy, no more than 18 maybe, and as always, as a genius with a sword. He fights Kenshin for a bit and end up coughing (of course, it wouldn't do to let him kill the main char haha) and Saito steps up to defy Kenshin. What bothers me in Kenshin is that Saito is depicted as a much older man than he was and a superior of Okita (in that he is a captain and Okita is not) which is false of course since they were close in age and both captains of the Shinsengumi. What's interesting though is that it depicts Saito's life post-Shinsengumi, which is almost never touched upon.

But yeah there are lots of stories you can find on the Internet and some kind fan translations about textbooks or even Hakuouki materials, with side-notes explaining some of the cultural and historical things happening all around. There's a livejournal with translations of the prequels and some notes, sadly the author has passed away and never could finish all she started but it's quite good still. You just have to search "tokio fujita" livejournal about Hakuouki.