Scoring Discussion or: How I Learned to Stop Loving Superflight and Started Worrying

[Vortex]

I instantly fell in love with this game and I think the devs really captured lightning with this one.
But was hoping to start a discussion on how scoring works in this game, mainly the multiplier system and how I feel it hurts the game.

TL;DR: I feel the score multiplier mechanic discourages the risk/reward system

Since it might be prudent; I have about 5-6 hours in the game so far with my current highest score being 120,419 points

Sorry that is a fairly long post, if you do end up reading it I would love to hear what other people think of this.

Problem

I have a trouble with how the score multiplier works, atm (as far as I can tell) it seems dependent on how long you have collected points, so if you stay close to an edge for a certain ammount of time your score multiplier goes up, regardles of how many points you have accumulated during that time, as long as you have been getting points non stop.

I understand why it's there, to reward players for constantly being close danger, but I feel that this actively discouriges the risk/reward system that is otherwise so beutifully intergrated to the game. So basically it's much more benificial to go as slow as possible and just hog the outside/underside of bigger shapes so that you can build up the multiplier as much as possible.

I feel that this also discourages the use of more varied maps, currently it feels like the more popular scoring maps are based on finding as flat disks as possible so you can circle glide under/above them.

So it starts feeling like higher score is more dependent on patience then rewarding risk / skill [Keep in mind that I'm only something like 240-ish on the leaderboards so I don't really know how top players go about it, so I'm just speculating]

Some Suggestions

• I would prefer it if there wasn't a score multiplier at all, then it becomes less important to keep the "combo" up by staying close to bigger shapes and instead rewards you for risky, high scoring paths. You would still have the issue of people playing over time accumulating points by going safe, I don't think you can get away from this fully, but at least people playing risky can have a chance to compete with those scores
  
  
• Rewarding score multiplier based on your current combo score (meaning current score before it's banked, not overall score for that run). I feel this would reward high scores bursts, so you would get rewarded for pulling of risky paths that gives you a lot of points under a short amount of time. (So when you get 5000 points you get 2x multiplier, 7000 points 3x etc)
  
  
• Alternatively or possibly in addition the last suggestion; it would be nice if there was a maneuver you could pull to keep the combo going when crossing gaps where there isn't any surfaces nearby.
  So lets say you can press "Q" or something and the character would preform a barrel roll animation and this would let you keep the combo active,
  (Maybe this move could reward you 10 p or some other small amount but preferably this move wouldn't give you any points so it wouldn't needed to be spammed al the time for higher score, just keep the combo going)
  Hopefully this would make more map "types" more valid for scoring.
  
  

  Optional Reading

  
  I understand very well that you can't just change how scoring works in a game like this without at least adding it as a separate game mode / individual leader boards and I read the devs post about the difficulty of adding changing things at this stage. And I also agree with the value in keeping this game as simple as it is now.
  
  So I'm just mostly hoping that this will lead to an interesting discussion and that maybe it's something the developers can take to hearth if they ever decide to make another game with a scoring system, never underestimate the exponential power of a multiplier. :)
  
  And with things like this you really can't say if anything I've suggested would make for a better experience without testing it, so it's quite possible that they have already considered all of this during development.

[AvranaK]

Not sure about the talks of removing multiplier (don't really have an opinion either way) but the idea of a way to continue combos is good i think,

[Vortex]

Thanks for checking out the post, I think that part would probably be the hardest to implement to the game as it stands now, but it would work with the scoring system as it is now.

[Mandellorian]

The biggest multipliers i`ve recieved have all come from high speed/high risk moves ..the game definitely rewards that style of play MUCH higher than pootling round the edge of things.

[Friedemann]

Hey Dangerous Person,

I just read your post. First of all: Thank you so much for taking the time to write this. Feedback like this is so great for us and we really appreciate how differenciated and understanding this whole post is. Stuff like this is why we love our community.

Now to addressing your concerns/ideas:
You’re definitely making some really good points there. We’ve also started to notice that it’s a very good highscore strategy to build up your multiplier and keep flying for as long as possible. It’s also true that maps with flat structures tend to be really good for scoring, We’ll keep talking about it and think about what we could do. Like you said, it’s not easy to change these things too fundamentally and we do want to encourage different playstyles, but we’ll see if we can come up with a good solution for this.

Thanks also for your suggestions, those are really good ideas and we’ll keep them in mind. We hope you’re still enjoying the game and look forward to hearing more opinions on the topic in this thread.

Cheers,
Friedemann

[Miasmic]

Theres a scoring system? #zenmode :P

[Vortex]

@ Nigel Your response is appreciated, thank you for addressing this as well. I think your candid approach and frequent community interaction is a big reason for the positive atmosphere around this game.

If you make a test branch on steam of any scoring system tweaks I'd be glad to give them a try.

[Draygone]

Personally I prefer it as it is now.
I have 24 hrs in this game and a combo of 170k.

One thing I have noticed is around your talk of risk vs reward. If you look at the two leader boards you will see a lot of overlap. This is to be expected as some of the higher combos put you well over halfway to getting a good high-score. At the same time there are a lot of people like myself who are ranked much higher in one over the other. I feel like this reflects two different philosophies around the risk/reward structures in this game.
Some people are like me, who want a perfect, insane run. I have tried the same run on the same map countless times to get my combo, refining, improving and extending it. Seeking to squeeze out evermore points for my combo. However, I lack the patience for high-scores, often meeting an untimely end after misjudging a gap after only a few maps.
The other group are people who don't want to repeat one level over and over, who just want to chill and keep flying. These people are more risk adverse and are the kinds of people who can rack up 100k+ runs without ever going for a combo over 10k.
So you have to consider how any changes would effect each group.

From the perspective of going for a high combo I don't fully understand your problem. You mention that the set of maps used for getting high combos is limited to ones with large flat surfaces, and this is true, but I don't see how changing the multiplier will fix this. To get a good combo will always involve flying the whole map in one combo, staying as close to walls and flying the longest route possible and this is only viable on a subset of the maps generated by the game. Because building up speed is inefficient this means that the best combos are ones that are done at lower speeds. It's also easier to pull off maneuvers at lower speeds (until you stall). Changing the multiplier to be based around point thresholds just encourages starting your run with some crazy trick, which is easy to do as you can quickly start over if you fail. Personally, based on numbers you suggest, my run would hit 3x multiplier after the first corner and my whole combo would be much higher scoring. Currently I am annoyed with my combo because I dropped it on the first corner and so it is 20k points lower than it could be, so I am trying again and again to get it right. Under you system, I would build a multiplier much faster and so it would be less of an issue.

From the side of high-scoring I can see this having a bit more of a change by making risky maneuvers more high scoring but the aim of high-score is to not die, not to go for combos. Hell, you could hypothetically just keep flying down and through portals and never even get close to a wall (though it would be very boring). So your suggested changes to the multiplier wont really change anything there either as you can get a good run by still just hugging walls and not taking risks.

Your suggestion of some sort of trick which can be used to bridge gaps on the other hand is far more interesting. Personally I would go for some sort of tuck roll as that is something wing-suit fliers do, and while you do it you have no lift (so don't do it at low speeds) and no control (so don't do it in tight spaces). It would make doing combos on certain maps more interesting and viable and add to both combo seeking and high scoring play styles.

Another option to make riskier flying more rewarding would be to have a speed multiplier so that traveling fast is more rewarding to make up for the lack of control. This is one that I feel would be quite good to implement as it could encourage people to try and do faster stunts which are more rewarding.

Ultimately I don't fully understand what you are trying to achieve. I think you want people to take more risks when going for a high-score and I don't think changing the multiplier will achieve it. Adding a trick to bridge gaps could be good though.

[Brtzlmo]

one way of push risk vs reward might be to hand out more points when you stay closer to the center of the map or when you fly through tunnels (compared to hovering under a big platform) as it is way more dangerous in most environments. right now the less risk you take the more points you will amass, you basically could just fly from portal to portal 200 times to make a good highscore ;)

[jofer]

Id love ways to get back up to chain your combo to other walls like a little trick you can do while moving (skateboarding games used to do this and it felt really good)
And maybe something like wind streams to push you back up so you can get some height and stay in seeds you enjoy (would be wonderful if the wind streams let you keep your combo rolling too) :)

[Vortex]

Hey Draygone thanks for taking the time to read my post and for the in depth response, you made some very good points and made me rethink some things.

Originally posted by Draygone:

Personally I prefer it as it is now.
I have 24 hrs in this game and a combo of 170k.

One thing I have noticed is around your talk of risk vs reward. If you look at the two leader boards you will see a lot of overlap. This is to be expected as some of the higher combos put you well over halfway to getting a good high-score. At the same time there are a lot of people like myself who are ranked much higher in one over the other. I feel like this reflects two different philosophies around the risk/reward structures in this game.
Some people are like me, who want a perfect, insane run. I have tried the same run on the same map countless times to get my combo, refining, improving and extending it. Seeking to squeeze out evermore points for my combo. However, I lack the patience for high-scores, often meeting an untimely end after misjudging a gap after only a few maps.
The other group are people who don't want to repeat one level over and over, who just want to chill and keep flying. These people are more risk adverse and are the kinds of people who can rack up 100k+ runs without ever going for a combo over 10k.
So you have to consider how any changes would effect each group.

Looking at the two different leader boards to learn things on how people play I think is a very good approach, I didn't give the Combo leader board too much thought initially since I felt they went pretty hand in hand, that any problems and solutions would be the same for both. But yeah your very right that it's worth having in mind that people enjoy this game in different ways and "fixing" things for one group might ruin it for another.

Originally posted by Draygone:

From the perspective of going for a high combo I don't fully understand your problem. You mention that the set of maps used for getting high combos is limited to ones with large flat surfaces, and this is true, but I don't see how changing the multiplier will fix this. To get a good combo will always involve flying the whole map in one combo, staying as close to walls and flying the longest route possible and this is only viable on a subset of the maps generated by the game. Because building up speed is inefficient this means that the best combos are ones that are done at lower speeds. It's also easier to pull off maneuvers at lower speeds (until you stall).

This is why I felt that it would be interesting to think of what doing away with the combo mechanic all together would lead to.

Maybe instead of a combo leaderboard maybe there could be a "single map" leaderboard where you compete on the highest score you can get on a single map. [But this might make the problem of specific maps being better for scoring even worse. It's always really hard to say with this kind of stuff =/. I mainly hoped this to be a interesting thought experiment / brainstorming thing]

This way you could get even more rewarded for pulling of really hard / skillful paths instead of one that is dependant on keeping to combo up.

But I fully acknowledge that this is my preference, I'd rather be rewarded for finding a hard path / line then one that focuses on keeping the combo up because I personally feel that is a bit more fun and exiting

I really don't mean to come of condescending on anything like that , if you like the (added) challenge of finding a route that also keeps up a combo meter that is totally valid. I can see how it could potentially be adding more depth to the experience then not being there.

Having a Combo system vs No combo system feels like it would be a bit like two different game modes, since they would give two vary different approaches to the game and spawn different tactics for scoring. I just think I'd prefer the one without combo.

Originally posted by Draygone:

Changing the multiplier to be based around point thresholds just encourages starting your run with some crazy trick, which is easy to do as you can quickly start over if you fail. Personally, based on numbers you suggest, my run would hit 3x multiplier after the first corner and my whole combo would be much higher scoring. Currently I am annoyed with my combo because I dropped it on the first corner and so it is 20k points lower than it could be, so I am trying again and again to get it right. Under you system, I would build a multiplier much faster and so it would be less of an issue.

Yeah the number value-examples was just something I came up with on the spot didn't give it too much thought I'll admit.

I think your argument is very fair and when I thought of this system I didn't think about in context that you would then continue the combo going. I was just thinking that it would be a way to give more points for pulling of a really tricky intense path.
But thinking of it beyond that, I can see the problems you mention, that this would then only encourage you to play it even more safe after a tricky "skillshot" so you wouldn't loose that combo you managed to get.

And I cant really think of anyways to make the game able to judge when that cool intense section was over.

"Currently I am annoyed with my combo because I dropped it on the first corner and so it is 20k points lower than it could be, so I am trying again and again to get it right. Under you system, I would build a multiplier much faster and so it would be less of an issue."

With this part ^ I'm not really sure if you mean that my system is better or not. Could be that you mean that my suggested system wouldn't be as challenging over time and therefore less rewarding / engaging?

Originally posted by Draygone:

From the side of high-scoring I can see this having a bit more of a change by making risky maneuvers more high scoring but the aim of high-score is to not die, not to go for combos. Hell, you could hypothetically just keep flying down and through portals and never even get close to a wall (though it would be very boring). So your suggested changes to the multiplier wont really change anything there either as you can get a good run by still just hugging walls and not taking risks.

Yeah just being able to score high by just playing over a long period of time was the main issue I was trying to "solve". I don't think it is the developers intent that the leaderboards should be based on time spent not dying, but rather a balance of taking risk and surviving.

Unfortunately I don't have any complete answers for how to remove the "just-accumulation-points-over-time" problem other then setting some limits, such as a time limit or a world-limit but I think both of these go against the spirit of the game and the experience they're going for.

My hopes with my suggestions was that you can make it so that the amount of points you get from doing really risky things are so high compared to playing it safe that the amount of time you would have to play to get high on the leaderboards by "just playing it safe" would be too long to be a valid strategy.

Originally posted by Draygone:

Your suggestion of some sort of trick which can be used to bridge gaps on the other hand is far more interesting. Personally I would go for some sort of tuck roll as that is something wing-suit fliers do, and while you do it you have no lift (so don't do it at low speeds) and no control (so don't do it in tight spaces). It would make doing combos on certain maps more interesting and viable and add to both combo seeking and high scoring play styles.

I'm glad you dug this Idea, the reason I thought of a barrel roll was because I thought I'd be easier to implement with the rag doll nature of the character. But yeah adding some downsides to this maneuver would probably be a good idea since I was worried that it'd feel necessary to just spam it all the time. (I was initially thinking something like a cool down but I think your suggestions would work much better)

Originally posted by Draygone:

Another option to make riskier flying more rewarding would be to have a speed multiplier so that traveling fast is more rewarding to make up for the lack of control. This is one that I feel would be quite good to implement as it could encourage people to try and do faster stunts which are more rewarding.

This, this right here. I think this is a really good idea, I thought of something like that as well after having written the initial post. It would definitely work well with risk reward thing. This ofc might lead to some other issues like maybe diving straight through some levels would be too OP. But it'd be an issue of finding the right balance and I think the right amount of point increase based on speed would be a great addition.

It doesn't sound like it's hard to implement either... but that doesn't mean it would be easy, being outside looking in on game development, it can be seemingly random what things are easy and hard to implement, but there is usually a good reason why some things just won't work.

Originally posted by Draygone:

Ultimately I don't fully understand what you are trying to achieve. I think you want people to take more risks when going for a high-score and I don't think changing the multiplier will achieve it. Adding a trick to bridge gaps could be good though.

If the overall-score leader board is a representation of the ability to put yourself at risk but also surviving over a long period of time, I'm hoping to balance the emphasis more on risk / skill than surviveability.

The multiplier / combo system might not end up being the best way to go about it. It was just something I saw that could possibly be changed to encourage / reward cool high risk moves and to encourage more intense risk taking game-play rather methodical.

I guess you could argue that it's a thing of skill vs strategy but I unfortunately feel like the more successful strategies are unrewarding and more tedious then fun.

Thanks again for the reply.

[Vortex]

Originally posted by Brtzlmo:

one way of push risk vs reward might be to hand out more points when you stay closer to the center of the map or when you fly through tunnels (compared to hovering under a big platform) as it is way more dangerous in most environments. right now the less risk you take the more points you will amass, you basically could just fly from portal to portal 200 times to make a good highscore ;)

Increasing the score value of the "Awesome"-move and maybe even "So Close" I think would be a good tweak, it feels the risk of pulling of one of those is too high for the points you get, compared to how easily you can get at least 2000 or even 4000 points form just gliding close to a big thing for a bit.

While getting higher score close to the center of a map is defiantly an interesting suggestion and I see where you're coming from with this, but I feel that this wouldn't work to well with the random generated nature of the levels, making some otherwise cool levels bad because they are hard to get close to the center and vise versa

But yeah the less risk = more points was what I had a problem with too :)

Originally posted by Jofer:

Id love ways to get back up to chain your combo to other walls like a little trick you can do while moving (skateboarding games used to do this and it felt really good)
And maybe something like wind streams to push you back up so you can get some height and stay in seeds you enjoy (would be wonderful if the wind streams let you keep your combo rolling too) :)

Yeah I was thinking of the "Manual" move from the Tony Hawks game and how much it changed the series when it was introduced. It opened up new paths for longer combo's and gave more options and variety when going for a high score.

I'm personally not a fan of the idea of giving the player the possibility to stay at one level (be if from spawning back on top when falling through the bottom or wind tunnels / updrafts) I feel like this would run the risk of the High score boards being dominated by finding a good level and being able to repeat a certain path, theoretically infinitely, instead of being forced to adopt and improvise to new worlds and circumstances, which I feel is a very cool part of this game.

[Vortex]

I'm sorry if I'm hijacking the thread with long posts, but as a separate suggestion / talking point I was thinking that one other suggestion might be to ad a delay from when you stop accumulating points to where you're combo ends.

At the moment it feels like as soon as your not earning any points the combo is finished and the points are banked. If there was a delay (or more of a delay) until the combo is finished this would allow you to clear short distances between edges and keep the combo going, giving you more options for cool routes. As well as alleviate some frustration of loosing your combo while trying to turn a corner.

An additional benefit to this tweak would be that it would reward you going faster. More speed would mean that you would be able to clear larger gaps while keeping your combo intact.

Lastly this would help make maps with lots of thin vertical pillars a bit more viable since now when you fly in some levels you just keep hearing ka-ching, ka-ching, ka-ching :P

[Anxarcule]

I'm going to pick this up soon but if I might chime in based purely on videos I've watched for the very close calls you could open a certain window (say 15 seconds, although I haven't played to comment on what would work) where if you get another close call that add a multiplier effect to that as well.

This would allow the slow and steady playstyle of keeping a continous score, and also reward the fast daredevils looking for the very tough close calls.

EDIT: Close calls refers to the "So Close! +2000" as shown in the trailer

[Brtzlmo]

keeping up the multiplier longer and adding one for "Awesome" or "So Close" are great suggestions. give a x2 multiplier for "Awesome" and x4 for "So Close" to reward risky moves, that way you can be a daredevil and still get a good multipier going.

[periurban]

Just make the combo multiplier apply to the "awesome" and "so close" rewards. The best flyers will get the best rewards.