Warriors of discord AND paladins?

[Keego Extremo]

In at least one mission of the campaign you are able to free some paladins and they can join an empty warrior's guild, while you are still able to train warriors of discord. I believe it was the slave pits mission or something.
I was just wondering if there is any way to be able to recruit both of them at the same time in a freestyle map? There is one premade setting called "united in fath" or something that has a temple to fervus and a temple to dauros at the start. When you build a warriors guild you can see 0 warriors, 0 warriors of discord AND 0 Paladins. I can recruit warriors of discord but not paladins. Does anyone know of any way around this?
I know one of the buildings lets you recruit 2 random heros, but that has very little chance of actually getting a paladin if you have discords or vice versa.

Anyone have any ideas? Any mods?

[Teralitha]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Keego Extremo:

Oh and I do think the WoD do actually have some stats that are better than the paladins. I've had some that are high enough level to kill rock golems in like 3 hits and I've never seen a paladin come close to doing that.

Sure, but... if the WoD misses, they dont have the ability to take the big hits and survive like the paladin can.

[Alfryd]

The Dauros/Agrela heroes are all about long-term payoff: both Healers and Monks are in fact very powerful if you can babysit them through the lower levels. (Monks in particular have superb dodge/parry and gain 85 magic resistance + 7% critical hits + bonus regeneration at level 7, so very few things can take them down by then. If only they didn't trek to the inn so often...)

WoDs do get a nice AoE attack and crit bonus, so sometimes they'll get lucky, but they're slow, erratic, and stupid, so 9 times out 10 the equivalent-level paladin that brought healing potions, a ring of protection and three of her sisters is deflecting more than enough damage to make up for the HP difference and pulverises that rock golem an hour before the WoD even notices the reward flag.


@Dorgath: It is indeed possible to modify dodge/parry mechanics (along with the various spells and decision trees), and I was briefly working on a mod for that exact purpose. I kinda don't want to dig in further until I can rely on the debug functions, though- I don't like working blind.

[Keego Extremo]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Teralitha:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Keego Extremo:

Oh and I do think the WoD do actually have some stats that are better than the paladins. I've had some that are high enough level to kill rock golems in like 3 hits and I've never seen a paladin come close to doing that.

Sure, but... if the WoD misses, they dont have the ability to take the big hits and survive like the paladin can.

And that's the rub. They have better offensives and I think a fair bit more HP, but they don't dodge very well and have default low armor.

You see, this why I would like to have both sometimes, because having a couple paladins to "tank" the larger monsters since they arrive first, while a WoD demolishes it with his 6foot long pole-axe which looks suspiciously like a pick-axe.

[Dorgath]

The "problem" with the Priestesses and Cultists is that their summons don't stay with them, but go wandering all over the map, so they can't necessarily protect them. Yeah, if you make lots of them (more than 8), but by then, you really should have won the scenario by then. The other weird deal is that Fervus Heal and Krypta's Animate Dead cost more than the Agrela equivalents, so it really makes fiscal sense to go with Agrela/Dauros.

I frankly don't build Monks until *much* later, really I build just the Dauros temple as a "decoy" for attacking monsters (and recruit Monks so they'll defend their home). Otherwise, it is just Healers and Paladins (and really Healers until I get enough gold for Paladins, which takes a little while with everything else going on).

So back to the Chaos "lack of protection" in general, since Priestesses and Cultists are so "squishy", they just happen to be inferior in general (IMO). Yes, they're good for specialized scenarios like anytime with Dragons, but overall, the Law side shines brighter.

[Keego Extremo]

"The "problem" with the Priestesses and Cultists is that their summons don't stay with them, but go wandering all over the map, so they can't necessarily protect them"

Doesn't matter though, eventually you'll have an armies of them wandering around and it can provide a buffer for the real heroes.

[Dorgath]

"Eventually".

Well, yeah, given enough time, of course you'll win provided you "spam" the map with them. But whereas you can win with just one guild of each of the Law side by itself with really no intervention with sovereign spells, the same cannot be said of the Chaos side.

[Keego Extremo]

I beg to differ.

[Teralitha]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Keego Extremo:

I beg to differ.

You can differ all you want but the facts are still the same.

[Keego Extremo]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Teralitha:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Keego Extremo:

I beg to differ.

You can differ all you want but the facts are still the same.

oooooh daaayum! Dropping down the hammer.

[Alfryd]

Keego, we're not trying to dogpile you here. But given that competitive multiplayer hasn't really been possible for years, you might not have been exposed to some of the harsher realities of how classes stack up against eachother when the combined nuances of AI quirks, combat stats and economic cost all come into play. (And Dorgath, I know for certain, has sunk a lot of hours into tortuous freestyle scenarios that are otherwise impossible to beat, so he knows a thing or two about survival strategy.)

There are plenty of mid-level single-player scenarios that either foist one class selection upon you and/or are easy enough that many sub-optimal strategies work perfectly well, and it's entirely natural to grow attached to certain classes based on their personality, theme, background lore or coolness factor. I love cultists for their rambunctious pluck and whimsy, but I know perfectly well that 400 gold of my money is nearly always better spent on other things.

[Dorgath]

Well, I'm not talking competitive multiplayer. Last I heard, that was all about the Barbarian rush and maybe Solarii? I never played, so can't readily remember.

And I will say that while I've tried every Master freestyle permutation with 10000 starting gold and beat them all going the Law route *except* Frozen Wastes and the Wandering monster type of Ice Dragons and Yetis? Something like that... I never did give Chaos a legit try. So it may be possible to beat them going Chaos.

And my statement above about one guild of each of Chaos can't beat a map is without merit or proof, just my belief. But I *will* put down the challenge of a freestyle scenario, no mods, just one guild of each type, and no sovereign intervention via spells, and see how each side does, me for Law, and whoever else (Keego?) for Chaos.

[Reality]

I think I'll try to see how far chaos can go- the game's kind of arbitary about what combinations it counts as advanced though, and the easier ones won't really prove anything.

[Dorgath]

Master's the way to go :) With 10,000 starting gold. I'll get some settings.

[Reality]

I've been testing stuff since Monday. I won a couple of games with the one guild (per type) and no spell restrictions (I did use move camp and call to arms though). Played with both events off, 10,000 gold, and new settlement.

Right now I'm dividing the freestyle settings (on chaos) into three categories :Can be survived with early warriors (W), can be survived with early kypta (K), can't be survived (blank).

I did most of my time with the expert settings, but I tried the advanced settings too, and 2 of them are really hard, easily on par with the expert settings (and the game will still display master with new settlement+expert+advanced+10,000 gold). However the other advanced settings and beginner didn't impress me, I feel like the rest of them can be powered through with all rangers if you wanted.

Enemy Forces

Ravenous (W) or (K)
Wendigo are really annoying, but I found that an all warrior recruit can actually stop them, which is surprising since all warrior recruit doesn't work against "weaker" stuff like goblin champions/werewolves. Krypta either depends on skeleton luck... or 1 guardhouse as distraction to make things so much more consistent. This setting can actually just be done with cultists, which is funny to watch.

Dragon's Nest (K)

It's a little different than dragon's reach because the secondary lairs pump out minotaurs/rust spitters/medusa, which is really annoying when bringing the lairs down, but doesn't really affect the attacks on your buildings, which is left up to krypta.

Sorcerer's Legacy (W)

This is the main "Minotaur rush" setting. The vampires/medusa/oculous mostly stay around the lairs, which is annoying, but not a major problem. This is probbably my favorite setting overall.

Serpent Assault (W) or (K)

Personally I think this is the second easiest expert setting. Gorgons can come in 3s at the most, although 2s are more common. They are kind of single minded so if you place a temple or a warriors guild in the corner properly you can essentially guarantee that they are contained. There is also a dragon's lair, but it isn't flagged to spawn monsters until day 20 or so, by which time the game is well under control.

Winter Behemoths

Goblin Fortress (W) or (K)

Not much to say. It is a little annoying to explore, but the goblins don't do that much.

Dragon's Reach (K)

With multiple dragon's the chance of skeletons dying increases. Generally I recommend not researching potions before the first attack- If the priestess and skeletons are attacking at the same time, they don't need to survive as long as they do on the "one dragon at a time settings".

Wandering Monsters

Vermin Assault (K)

This difficulty of this setting is somewhat random, but it mostly comes from day 2 and day 4, when you first have ratman champions running around. While the melee classes can handle them after leveling up, it's essentially impossible to have new recruits defend their guild at the beginning of the game.

Gorgon Onslaught (W)

Even though this is advanced and Serpent Assault is Expert, this setting is much harder. This is mainly because the gorgons spawn in larger numbers as wandering monsters, and have the AI that makes them attack buildings. Additionally Some excess gorgons that stay in the wild make it really hard to attack lairs due to increasing the chance of fleeing in terror or defending home. I even went back and tried playing lawful and it still took me 55 days

Vampires (W)

This setting can do two things: A: vampires come in groups of 1. B: Vampires come in groups of 3. If the latter happens too early, you will usually never recover. It's really frustrating and random. WoD's (and sometimes rangers) can usually negate this, but early krypta or normal warriors usually ends in disaster.

Shadow Beasts (W)
Day 4 is very scary, but normal warriors (not WoD) stand up very well provided you don't upgrade the palace at this point and recruit 2-3 during the fight (average total of 7 warriors). Rogues or Rangers have a chance to pick 1-2 off. Krypta can help, but not on the early waves, due to gold being tight.

Dragon Raiders (K)
Krypta are made for this, as seen in tomb of the dragon king. It is important to place the temple and marketplace carefully so that the skeletons stay on the edge of your original settlement and properly fence the dragons.

Frozen Wrath


Monstrous Horde (K)
You mostly fight dragons, minotaur, rock golem. The rarer monsters are evil oculous and vampires One of the main problems is that the monsters don't just come from the cardinal directions and the diagonal , but have a chance to spawn behind the palace. It's a very unreliable setting, but Krypta can sometimes clutch it out. The main limiting factors are rock golems and oculous. (1 early vampire can be taken out by the rogues used to get palace for early kypta+and you almost never get 2 early vampires). Gnomes sometimes have to be relied upon to stall by letting enemies attack buildings.

So far I've actually beaten

Ravenous+Vampires 34 days / Dragon's Nest+Dragon Raiders 34 days / Dragon's Nest+Monstrous Horde 41 days / Sorcerer's Legacy+Shadow Beasts 32 days/Sorceror's Legacy+Vermin Assault 33 days / Sorceror's Legacy+Vampires 34 days/ Sorceror's Legacy+Dragon Raiders 37 days / Goblin Fortress+Dragon Raiders 32 days/ Goblin Fortress+Vermin Assault 37 days/ Serpent Assault+Dragon Raiders 44 days / Serpent Assault+ Vampires 34 days / Serpent Assault+Gorgon Onslaught 62 days/ Dragon's Reach+Dragon Raiders 29 days

Future Enemy Forces

I can probably beat Ravenous on everything but dragon raiders and gorgon assault, but it's kind of time consuming. Winter Behemoths might be possible if it only spawns yeti/wendigo and no ice dragons for the first 20 days (above average chance compared to frozen wrath) and you used one of the weaker wandering monster sets.

Future Wandering Monsters

*Remember these notes are for chaos temples only, barbarians/paladins won't have most of these problems

I think I can also beat gorgon assault on sorceror's legacy and goblin stronghold, but I'm really doubtful about the other maps. Vampires should be possible with every combo. I don't think Vermin Assault is possible when combined with dragon nest or dragon reach. Same for Shadow Beasts. Monstrous Horde should be possible on goblin stronghold and dragon's reach. Monstrous Horde on Ravenous and Sorceror's Legacy sounds good on paper, but while those maps are "consistent" they do consume a lot of gold to achieve that consistency, which would no longer be a luxury I can afford with rock golems running around. Frozen Wrath isn't possible on new settlement+10,000 gold, even if you set the other enemy forces to rat scouts.

So far, the only things that are auto-losses in ISOLATION are frozen wrath and winter behemoths.

However, if a combination of setups that require early krptya AND early warriors to survive the initial day 4 attack comes up (mostly mixtures of gorgons/ dragons) then chaos will lose.

I do think that outpost+10,000 gold might expand the number of combinations that chaos can handle over new settlement+10,000, since upgrading the palace is the main obstacle to having the cash needed for a "mixed team" of priestess and warriors early on. With New Settlement, Chaos can only win the W+W combinations and the K+K combinations.

Final note- Krypta can survive some of the W setting (Sorceror's legacy and gorgon onslaught for sure, possibly others) with selective use of wither during the initial attacks. I didn't count that in the chart though.

[humofthedead]

in a multiplayer with 2 experts in a 1 on 1 match the entire match is over in 1 to 5 days depending on how equal the players are in skill.The guilds built are gnomes and either rangers and barbarians or rogues, rangers and Helia.

If the players are really skilled the match could go to day 10 but it is rare although I did play a match once with a player named Arthur who was so equaly skilled as I that we lasted an unherd of 45 days. It was pretty epic. At this point we both had the entire map covered with buildings and after we played for 2 hours straight and reached day 45 we both declared a tie....ah those where the days :)

well my point to all this was I read the posts and seen that multiplayer was mentioned and I can tell you for a fact that the best players in a multiplayer game did not use either paladins nor WoD.