Sovereign Spells- less is more?

[Alfryd]

I noticed something recently when I was playing the 'Necromancer's Domain' mod, but also the 'Vampiric Revenge' quest that used to come with the demo- I found myself rather more 'drawn in' when I couldn't use advanced sovereign spells to babysit 'stuck' heroes or hammer enemies with lightning spam. I had to eke out victory *through* the heroes, rather than using them as mobile conduits for my economic engine.

I'm wondering if the main game itself couldn't benefit from scaling back on spells that directly damage enemies or heal allies, or just that confer overwhelming combat bonuses (e.g, antimagic shell or vigilance.) What if resurrection was a rare and hard-won thing? What if divine spells, in particular, didn't run off gold, but off a reservoir of 'faith points', or finite concentration, or collective cooldowns like the sorc's abode?

Just throwing out ideas, but has anyone played these quests and felt something similar?

[Dorgath]

I don't actually use the sovereign spells all that much and usually just to Heal a hero who's up against a boss, really. Except for that one quest when I think the point is actually to Lightning Storm the minotaur horde before it overwhelms you in the beginning... but generally, in freestyle, I rarely use them so losing them altogether wouldn't be that big of a deal to me.

[mafilux]

I don't use sovereign spells much either, other than re animate or ressurection. I'll occasionally stone skin a hero who's fighting a daemonwood, but for the most part they're pretty expensive to cast and I'd rather reinvest the money into my economy. Most heroes are cheap anyway, so losing a hero doesn't bother me too much.

There's also certain missions where you need to use spells though. I forget the name of the mission, but there's one where they start you off with a third level wizard's guild and you're rushed with minotaurs at the very start (As Dorgath was saying). If you don't use the lightning aoe, you lose to the very first wave. After that it's a bif of a cakewalk though.

[Peach Jelly]

I used to never use them at all and would rely soley on the heroes, provided resources, and reward flags to get things done. But in more recent years, I've had fun playing around with the sovereign spells. It's not TOO advantageous, as you have to catch the action as it's going on and be timely with your casting. It's not possible to micro-manage everything, which I like.

[Hassat Hunter]

Can't say I use them much besides resurection, and on that one mission in Krolm's Anvil. Oh, and the one mission without rangers of course.

[Alfryd]

I have to say I'm usually a complete fussing nanny when it comes to sovereign spells in most quests, where I'll turn the speed way way down and hover anxiously overhead, ready to bless and heal and dab each tender child of mine. Which is why these quests were kind of an eye-opener for me.

I do like having the range of spells available, because it adds a lot of thematic texture and a bit of added tactical interest, but I feel like throttling back the availability might be to the game's benefit. (Totally agreed about Quest for the Crown, btw, that mission is painful without lightning storm. So yeah, might be some balance tweaks needed.)


One thought that crossed my mind was that maybe you could arrange some kind of 'role-playing' system as a way to earn currency for sovereign spells- e.g, if you support, heal and shun violence, you gain favour with Agrela, or if you honour treaties and uphold the law you gain favour with Dauros. Helia or Krolm might like it when you beat overwhelming odds, and Krypta would not be above the occasional blood sacrifice.

I wonder if it might wind up being a bit circular- e.g, you use Agrela's favour to get spells that heal and pacify, which in turn gets you favour from Agrela- but it might be an interesting route to explore.

[mafilux]

Come to think of it, some missions (almost) require you to use the portal in some of the expansions, too. There's the one with all the medusa's where they rush your outlying elf bungalow, where if you don't use the portal to get heroes over there you lose. Also the one where the castle you're trying to destroy moves locations quickly, so using a portal is nearly the only way to destroy it (I'm sure you technically could just send heroes out, but I'm not sure if it would work as it would move before they could arrive there and fight their way through those spitting plants).

[Dorgath]

Yes, I personally think those kinds of quests are intentionally set up that way to "force" you to play that way. I don't think that's bad necessarily though since it's not a "freestyle" mission; that's just how they were designed.

[Alfryd]

Valley of the Serpents is kinda punishing no matter how you go about it, but I was usually able to build a warrior's guild next to the first bungalow. (The warriors themselves would need plenty of spell-support, though, plus winged feet for the peasants on construction duty.) Fortress of Ixmil, similarly, is tricky but doable without the sorc's abode.

I personally dislike missions that force a given win-or-die tactic with very little in the way of advance training or hints, particularly in a low-micro game that doesn't really revolve around quick reflexes (as you can't even brag that the script was hard to follow.)


Now I think of it, I wonder if the 'fussing nanny' thing was actually stronger in Necromancer's Domain- given that hero deaths were not only permanent but actually made the enemy stronger. Ooh, yes... how very Ice and Fire. I like.

[mafilux]

Originally posted by Alfryd:

Valley of the Serpents is kinda punishing no matter how you go about it, but I was usually able to build a warrior's guild next to the first bungalow. (The warriors themselves would need plenty of spell-support, though, plus winged feet for the peasants on construction duty.) Fortress of Ixmil, similarly, is tricky but doable without the sorc's abode.

I didn't find Valley of the serpents all that hard, my best time on it was 11 days. It was just that initial rush that you have to watch out for, since your economy won't be great by the time those medusas show up. At least with Ixmil you're not under as much of a time constraint, so you can build up as much as you want before deciding to attack the tower.

[Hassat Hunter]

I generall use the warrior guild tactic... Call at Arms is mighty handy.

[VikesRule]

I never use soverign spells, guild abilities, or reward flags. You can beat just about any quest this way except for Legendary Heroes I think (although I suppose it's technically possible to beat it without using the wizard tower thing, I just don't know how many times you'd have to try). I find using the spells and reward flags makes the game way too easy.

[Alfryd]

I know the logical thing is to finish VoTS quickly, but I find I'm doing well if I can polish off the snake pits before the gnome reinforcements arrive (who by the way are *spreads hands* fabulous!) I usually wind up seeing at least a couple of frost dragons first.

Call to Arms is effectively a kind of sovereign spell as well, given it's a long-range teleport for all your warriors. It might seem a little more natural if the cost was reduced and your guildies just ran home lickety-split.

@VikesRule: Well, uh, hmm. I... guess I'm curious what kind of tactics you use to beat a quest?

[Dorgath]

I think the main intent is VoTS is to use Gate. That's why there's a Sorceror's Abode to start (I think). Although of course you can use other strategies

Originally posted by Alfryd:

I personally dislike missions that force a given win-or-die tactic with very little in the way of advance training or hints

Since there's no penalty to losing a mission, I chalked it up to a learning experience in itself. As in, this strategy didn't work so try something else. I personally would have disliked if most of the missions were "open ended" like freestyle because in all likelihood, you would just use one strategy since it can "beat all" with that environment/setup.