Some Thoughts on Majesty versus Majesty 2

[David McMurdo]

Back in the day I got both Majesty and Majesty 2 when they were released and I played and enjoyed them both. In the last week I've gone back to both games—for the first time playing them extensively back to back. Having done so, I must say that I think that the original is the superior game, which is the opposite of what I expected to find based on my memory of both titles. Here are some of my reasons:

- In Majesty 2 you are always building your settlement up in exactly the same way no matter what mission you're playing. The main reason for this is that temples are so much harder to get. In the original game your strategy for any given map will typically involve using specific types of temples and their inhabitants. This is only natural since you can build them relatively quickly (after you've upgraded your palace to level 2). But in Majesty 2 you can only build temples once you've got a level 3 palace, and even then only on special holy ground. But by the time you've got a level 3 palace your security is already assured by the more mundane heroes, so the choice of which temple to build is basically irrelevant by then—it's just a matter of personal taste that will have no bearing on gameplay.

- On a similar note, Majesty 2 is living proof that less is more. On paper it may seem cool to have so many upgrades within each guild type, but when implemented it results in nothing but a grind when you're playing mission after mission. There's just too much nonsense to spend your money on and it's not fun to be constantly waiting until your tax collector arrives to get an upgrade that may or may not be useful (you have no real way of knowing since you can't tell if your heroes will actually use the attacks or not). You feel like you're playing some casual game that involves a lot of grind and that nagging voice that you should be doing something more worthwhile arises in your mind, but nope, got to get my rogues their "Solar Plexus Kick". Another consequence of this is that each upgrade feels less significant. Getting a level 2 rogue's guild to enable your heroes to apply poison to their weapons REALLY matters in the original game. In Majesty 2 it's just one of dozens of upgrades that doesn't really seem more significant than any other in the grand scheme of things. It was such a relief to return to the original game where any additional abilities come automatically when you upgrade any given guild or when heroes level up.

- The balance between elves and dwarves is non-existent in Majesty 2. If I build a dwarven settlement I can get to build the excellent dwarven towers. If I build an elven settlement I get nothing but heroes with a penchant for getting themselves killed. When you consider that those same heroes will set out to hamper any dwarves they encounter, there's just no reason at all to ever recruit elves unless a mission tells you to. In the original game however, there are benefits to both. Hell there are even benefits to having gnomes, not least is the cute "but I'm just a gnome" statement when they're killed. Of course Majesty 2 cut out the gnomes for some reason.

- The heroes in the original Majesty actually defend their guilds. I couldn't believe it. I had played Majesty 2 so much and neglected the original for so long that for some reason I thought that they ignored attacks on even their own homes like they do in Majesty 2, but they don't. Again, a huge relief.

- Even though hero types in both games are meant to be more or less inclined towards certain activities, it just doesn't come across in Majesty 2. I can't put my finger on the reason for this. I think it's a combination of things. For example, the maximum map size in the original game is significantly bigger than the maximum map size in Majesty 2, so it's more obvious that your rangers are the ones exploring those distant lands. In the second game every hero type is just as capable of walking great distances of their own accord. I think it may be a case that in Majesty 2 they just didn't make those differences extreme enough. If my settlement is under attack then I'm just hoping that any hero is nearby, because whether they're a warrior, a rogue, or a wizard they're all as likely as one another to go after the monsters. But in the original game I'm praying that a paladin is nearby and not, say, a rogue, because I know which one of them is going to be willing to face the beasts. The consequence of this is related to what I said earlier about always building your settlements the same way every time in Majesty 2. Since all hero types serve basically the same functions, and since building more than one of each type of guild gets increasingly expensive, there's no reason not to build one of each guild in every mission. But in the original game, success or failure often rests on recruiting exactly the right hero-types for the job at hand. The one hero type that does work pretty well in Majesty 2 are the clerics. They're pretty indispensible in the early game because of their healing abilties, but once the other hero types have access to healing potions and their million upgrades, this usefulness is lost.

- Lack of a "Freestyle" mode really cripples Majesty 2 for me. The ability to randomise monster lair placement doesn't even come close to being an acceptable substitute.


So there are a few thoughts. I should point out though that I do like Majesty 2. There's something very pleasant and addictive about it. There are even some features that I wish were in the original game like the ability to take heroes from one mission to the next.

Both games share some problems in common too, like issues with difficulty. Now I don't mind games being rock hard, in fact I like it. The problem in the Majesty series is that the level of difficulty is pretty inconsistent from mission to mission. For example, the "Elven Treachery" mission of the original game is only an "Advanced" mission, but in my opinion it's far harder than any of the "Expert" quests, especially if you opt to try and wipe the elves out (as I always do). Likewise, "Pretenders to the Throne" (the one where you have to fight against enemy paladins and rogues) in Majesty 2 is by far the hardest mission, even though there are a few after it. I guess it's just an issue inherent in the somewhat random nature of the games.

Sure do hope that they make a Majesty 3 and take most of their cues from the original.

[Dorgath]

Nice writeup. I sure wish I had the time to play one, let alone both :) A few comments:

Getting a level 2 rogue's guild to enable your heroes to apply poison to their weapons REALLY matters in the original game.

Eh, not really, at least in my experience. I only upgrade the Rogue's Guild if I have gold to burn, which when I do, the game is pretty much taken care of. But in the beginning, I find gold is better spent upgrading the Palace to level 2 and getting whatever Temples you want at that point.

The heroes in the original Majesty actually defend their guilds.

Oh yeah. Putting a Guild in front of a monster path so when you hire heroes and they can immediately Defend when they pop out is great.

For example, the "Elven Treachery" mission of the original game is only an "Advanced" mission, but in my opinion it's far harder than any of the "Expert" quests, especially if you opt to try and wipe the elves out (as I always do).

Yeah, this kind of thing is always subjective because of the skill level or playstyle of people. I certainly don't feel the same way about Elven Treachery - a couple of well-placed Guardhouses keeps the Elves off your back while you build up and eventually swarm them. And destroying their Statues to decrease their loyalty so they'll respond your own Attack Flags on their buildings is great fun :) But a couple of the NE Expert quests are challenging due to their win conditions that are other than Killing All Enemies (usually time limits).

Sure do hope that they make a Majesty 3 and take most of their cues from the original.

I wish too but know in reality the likelihood of it happening right now, with Paradox owning the IP, is near zero :(

[Alfryd]

Originally posted by David McMurdo:

Back in the day I got both Majesty and Majesty 2 when they were released and I played and enjoyed them both. In the last week I've gone back to both games—for the first time playing them extensively back to back. Having done so, I must say that I think that the original is the superior game, which is the opposite of what I expected to find based on my memory of both titles.

Like Dorgath said, nice writeup.

I felt that the AI in Majesty 1, despite having plenty of scope for improvement, was both generally more intelligent and more 'flavoursome' than Maj2, in that the various hero classes had more discernible personalities and were usually more proactive about defending the realm and not, e.g, wandering off to buy potions while their buddy is being mauled by werewolves.

Oddly enough, I would say that the Majesty game with the best overall AI is actually Majesty Mobile, which is pretty threadbare in terms of content and almost timidly adherent to the original game's premise, but has pretty sensible follow-and-support arrangements. Maybe try it some time?

On the subject of temple access, I'm in complete agreement. (I might almost go so far as to say that you should be able to pick out temples right from the start, without palace upgrades of any kind.) I rarely felt a compelling need to get dwarves in Maj1, though.

Oddly enough, I also don't object to the plethora of guild upgrades in Maj2 per se, and I felt like the heroes there were reasonably reliable at learning them. There's a 'grindy' quality to them insofar as there's a certain compulsion to 'complete the set', but in principle that's no different from the original game. There's just more of them. My ideal design would have more upgrade options than would actually 'fit' in the guild, which would oblige you to make strategic decisions about how each guild was equipped.

Finally, if you want to take a look at my abortive effort at designing at spiritual successor, look below:
https://github.com/Morgan-Allen/Presidium-Graphics-Overhaul

[Andrettin]

Originally posted by Alfryd:

Finally, if you want to take a look at my abortive effort at designing at spiritual successor, look below:
https://github.com/Morgan-Allen/Presidium-Graphics-Overhaul

"Stratos (aka Presidium) is a science-fiction themed citybuilder game that borrows equally from Majesty, the Fantasy Kingdom Sim and the Impressions Citybuilder series."

I loved both those series, that's an awesome premise.

[Alfryd]

Thanks Andrettin. One of the speed-bumps I ran into was actually trying to reconcile the different demands of the two, since Majesty is primarily focused on on your military/adventuring forces and the Impressions series is primarily focused on civilian life and resource collection. If I get the chance to revisit the project, I'll probably tilt a little further toward the former.

[Mouse Lover]

The only thing I hate of majesty 2, is the fact that I need a special sacred ground to summon the sisters of krypta. This, THIS makes me angry / sad.

When I was a kid I always used the sisters of krypta on my majesty campaings (most of them at least). When I played Majesty 2 and found out about that it make me really sad / angry...

Wish there was a mod that allowed me to build temples of krypta without the need to use sacred ground.

[Austinknight2]

I find how they limit guilds in 2 soooooooooooo annoying

[TheFailMachine]

IMO, the ONLY improvement Majesty 2 made was the addition of Defend/Avoid reward flags.
I really hate how limited the Temples are, which were one of the coolest parts of the first game with each faction having very distinct personalities, abilities and spells, which in part added a lot of flavor to the game and gave you a lot more variety/options. It added a bit of strategy to the game as well, because you had to decide which faction would best fit the situation. Do I want healers, or beast tamers? Warriors of Discord or Paladins? etc
I kind of liked how you could create adventuring parties at inns in Maj2, but at the same time it made it less cool to see NPCs come together to fight a boss. It was kind of neat to see who would take up the challenge in the first game.
But you're right, building your kingdom does feel really grindy to me as well. It got really annoying when I would really want JUST this ONE building, but in order to build that, I had to build like 2-3 other buildings first :(
I pretty much agree with all of your points, lol. The heroes have all been toned down and have a lot less flair and personality/individuality. What they did to the Priestesses of Krypta is unforgiveable
>:(

[air com]

Some of the failures of this game’s successor can be attributed to whatever restraints they had faced since it came out a year or so overdue. Also, you are dealing with the technology they had at the time and the size of the game, game budget etc., I'm not a game developer.

You pointed to your dislike of your heroes going out like fodder in Maj2 well that’s a challenge of manipulating your heroes’ behaviour, like those 'fear flags' if I remember correctly, or putting reward flags in other areas of the map. One example is to put a guard tower outside south of the wizard guild and “hope” the wizard nukes the enemy and runs back in and repeat, preferably putting the wizard tower in the dangerous corner of the palace. The annoying grind can be remedied by accelerating the game speed. I agree the ‘Freestyle’ lacked but again likely they faced restraints on their intentions and had to make it basic.

The first Majesty game had good distinction in each of the classes than in Majesty 2. Each class was distinguishable but the laws of the game, dps by npcs and the map size as you pointed out, and such is totally different but I think it (Maj1) should be brought back in the next if there is, not to mention the constraints shouldn’t be that limiting since and I’m speculating, games should be getting a whole lot bigger than just 8 or 18gb.

On a different note, the people who made the first Majesty game in the late 90's come from a different time, culture and milieu, especially in gaming. The same with those in the late 2000's. If there is a Majesty 3 you will still have that mould of Majesty 1 and even 2 but it will likely be more innovative and different even to the distaste of old school Majesty fans. To go on bit of a tangent take the Star Wars movie series as a classic example. I don't even know if those old developers are even still there but innovation is innovation. Likely they purposely made the distinction between Majesty 1 and 2 to appease both old and new fans so they could return to each game respectively.

Also, the problem of pc gaming possibly being overrun by console gaming in the future or at least the coming decade, but that is my opinion. However, this will likely affect the arrival of the next game if there is, based upon what they faced the last time, and not to mention they will have to make it on a level to appease the appetites of modern gamers or young people in general than just previous fans. Can’t forget this is a business. Not to mention the development of the technology which I think it has stagnated or slowed the past decade which I think is why a lot of “games” haven’t made their successors yet because they will just be back to their previous step, and obviously wasted their investment.

[Hassat Hunter]

Nah, the big problem was the different focus.
For some reason the emphasis on MFKS2 was on Multiplayer. A sim doesn't really work too well for that, so they made it a RTS just with indirect control of your soulless heroes.
Compared to the ones full of personality in MFKS1.

MFKS1 was a sim with singleplayer focus, MFKS2 was a RTS with multiplayer focus.
So of course the biggest fans where majorly dissapointed, and it didn't really win over the RTS crowd to compensate.

[Dorgath]

Originally posted by setting:

Some of the failures of this game’s successor can be attributed to whatever restraints they had faced since it came out a year or so overdue.

Interesting statement. Can you provide a source and example of restraints?

Originally posted by setting:

On a different note, the people who made the first Majesty game in the late 90's come from a different time, culture and milieu, especially in gaming. The same with those in the late 2000's

I think this is irrelevant. The devs at Cyberlore had one vision for the game, and the Innoco(?) developers had another (which they clearly stated in one of the dev blogs at the time). The Maj2 developers *knew* of the difference and chose to "do it their way" anyway - I assume hoping it might win over some of the fans of the original games, but probably not really concerned whether it did or not.

Originally posted by setting:

Also, the problem of pc gaming possibly being overrun by console gaming in the future or at least the coming decade...,

Heh. That's been said of pc gaming for at lest the past 10 years.... :) Maybe not that long, but it does seem "forever".

[air com]

I was speculating wildly, I should have said that in the first place. But when the game came out I remember the hype was the game was coming out late. So what I read could have been conjecture but I'm certain it did come out like a year late, Majesty 2. I try to be accurate. I went off into space when I was doing it.

[Dorgath]

Ah. I was there during all of that time but I don't remember any "hype"; well, aside from what the game might actually play like since it *was* supposed to be a Majesty sequel. But I don't remember any reasons or constraints when it did come out late - although frankly, since it was such a "long time ago", I don't remember much of it at all :) Maybe Alfryd or Hassat or other vets who were around that time also remember better.

Although Hassat pretty much summed it up well anyway with his post above.

[Bosco Baracus]

I played the original majesty online when it came out thru gamespy arcade, was a good community and a lot of fun pvp games... Then it died, then gamespy died... Was so happy when i heard of majesty 2 untill i tried to play it...

They needed to keep the free will aspect of the first majesty and all the building and research options, pluss add to it, the 2d graphics are great fro strategy games, they could upgrade them if wished but u need that panned overhead view ti feel full controll of the game goin on in my opinion...

[Dorgath]

Can't remember if you posted that before and I asked you - were you on the old Cyberlore forums?

[Bosco Baracus]

im not sure if you are refering to me Dorgath, but i will answer as if you were lol...
I was on the Cyberlore forums back in the day , i played majesty at that time under the name Blue Heron ... there use to be a lot of really good and fast player at this game online, many tough but fun games, players learned and shared new findings and strategies...