Darkest Hour, like other Paradox Games - unfinished frauds

[Durruti]

Have previous extensive critique of DH (all the 'Hearts' efforts share these critiques) - on his forum - both as a Review, and as a comment.

Decided to reinstall DH & play-1936, as England. Not able to install torpedoes on my submarines (could do so previously). The only ships that would accept them, were Crusers & Battleships.

Switched (save-change country), to Germany. They had millions of modern submarines with torpedoes (a bug?). They had huge army, (& more on order). They have Panzer (armored), divisions, -which are possible for England, only after extensive researches (and not possible before Germany rolls over France).

I can see that game might be fun if one plays as Germany, or uses Cheats. But, if one chooses to try an Allied nation, esp. Britain or France, the cards are stacked against.

Other points - numbered (excuse habits of Hist Prof).

1. France withdraws every single soldier from Africa. Therefore if one "Rebel" is born, (sometimes spawned from the Spanish African colony-during their Civil War), it will overrun the entire French Africa, & then, invade the British colonies. This eccentricity will completely queer an ongoing Game.

2. War appears to be of masses of unconnected columns of soldiers attacking other columns of the enemy - THEREFORE, fortresses are unused. They are apparently worthless decorations (window dressing), despite the fact that they take much time & wealth to construct.

3. France (which suffered less from the Great Depression of the 1930s than any other country, except the Soviet Union), has severe financial problems - in the Game. Historically, France was able to afford to fortify a vast area (Maginol Line), and to maintain the largest Army in Western Europe - of 2 Million men. France lost to Germany in 1940, mostly for political & morale reasons. On the Book (as we say),, France should have been able to stop the German Army, as it had a better defensive position than it had in WW I (Alsace Lorraine fortified), and might have put up a better resistance as the Germans marched through Belgium (no surprise, as the Germans did the same maneuver in WW I.

4. Imagine if the British Army BEF, of 250,000, had actually stayed to fight, (but in this game, they never show - even though their presence could have been Hard-Coded by the Developers).

My Point:

In a 'GAME' a WW II Wargame at that, the player should have the options to go for victory, as Axis, or as Allies. France, under the control of a brilliant Player (that's us), should have an excellent chance to stop the Germans/Axis. Both Stalin, and Churchill were completely astonished by A- The French defeat, and B- The rapidity of the French defeat. Churchill went to Paris - after the German breakthrough at the Somme - and asked their Generals, where were their Reserves? - and was dismayed when told, that they (the French) had no reserves with which to plug the gap at the Somme. In 1940, France possessed sufficient manpower, including from their African colonies; their lack of reserves, was an error of incompetence in 1940, but need not be repeated by A Player of The Game in 2018.

When is a Game not a Game? (a Dr. House question).

I fail to see any redeeming value in this time waster.

I'll stick to Rome Total War I. Love flattening the 4 Roman factions with my Greeks (on Hard).

Also enjoy the occasional battle at Ultimate General Civil War. I play the Confeds.

Thanks for allowing me to vent.

Durruti

[Harri]

Originally posted by Durruti:

2. War appears to be of masses of unconnected columns of soldiers attacking other columns of the enemy - THEREFORE, fortresses are unused. They are apparently worthless decorations (window dressing), despite the fact that they take much time & wealth to construct.

This part is 100% factually incorrect. Land fortresses give tremendous bonus to defenders. Don´t believe? Try brute-forcing your way through Maginot line without attacking NL/BE and see what happens.

Originally posted by Durruti:

They have Panzer (armored), divisions, -which are possible for England, only after extensive researches (and not possible before Germany rolls over France).

Arm. division tech has different preconditions depending which doctrine you are using. With default doctrines, Germans get armored divisions early, others get them later.

There is nothing stopping you from switching your doctrine to Mobility focus as UK, which gives you early access to armored divisions.

[Durruti]

1. "There is nothing stopping you from switching your doctrine to Mobility focus as UK, which gives you early access to armored divisions."

Pray tell; just how do you do that? How -exactly- do you switch your Nation;s default doctrine?

2. "Land fortresses give tremendous bonus to defenders. Don´t believe? Try brute-forcing your way through Maginot line without attacking NL/BE and see what happens."

The German army walks thru the Maginol Line fortresses. The French appear to lack the ability to stop the German armies - anywhere. In WW II the Germans failed to penetrate the Maginol Line - until they broke through the Belgian front & approached the Maginol Line from the rear.

3. And the French withdrawing ALL their divisions from Africa?

4. And not being able to add torpedoes to the British submarines, while the Germans may?

5. etc.

[Hat8]

1) That is an annoying glitch for the pre-war game. Not really an issue but it looks ugly.

2) Ww2 was a war of mobility. The AI is stupid but you can get alot of use out of forts and occasionally find yourself struggling against a fort.

3) France was hit hard by the great depression and more importantly hit later and recovered later (well it got invaded). The French supply problems are a bit crippling so you should downsize. The AI gets a bonus % to industry and so doesn't get these problems.

4) The allies will show up in France if you play against the country. Unfortunately, the AI doesn't trust units to the player through the expeditionary unit function

5) France had crippling manpower problems in ww2. They had been experiencing a population crisis since the the 1830s and were bled white by ww1. France was putting out everything it could during the Battle of France.



Dunno what your problem with torpedoes is. Did you build any torpedoes.

I don't see what the main issue is. The Game is difficult as the allies and I'd say that this is a good thing. They were the underdogs in the early war and dealing with the greatest logistical problem in human history in the late war.

[brutus_bg]

Durruti,
it's oaky if you don't like the game. Some like it, some- not. What's a bit worrisome is that you've got 300+h of DH in your account and you're still ready to rant rather than ask/forget the game.

1. You abandon a doctrine from the tech tab. You can abandon only a doctrine tech. If you select an already researched doctrine technology, you have an ABANDON DOCTRINE button at the place where a "start researching" button stays.
The abandoned doctrine becomes "unresearched" and you have a blueprint about it. In vanilla there is no restriction about chosing a different doctrine tree.

2. Fortresses have a high price and they give bonus to the army which occupies the province. You keep on saying "Maginot line this, Maginot that that". Well, if we really should go historical, what about Molotov and Stalin lines? The Belgian forts? Singapore?
We understand your frustration (was it the AI or you who let the Jerries in?), but a fortification is only as good as the troops garrisoned there.

3. Sometimes rebels take over a remote colonial province and even form an independent state (have seen it most times with Cyprus)! This is an enornmous bonus for the allies- they are automatically at war with the rebellious fresh state and this means UK, France & co all gear up to wartime economy/ mobilize. Yes, that's ahistorical, just as 1-2 lonely rebel divisions occupying all of West Afrika. Solutions:
- if you're Soviets/ Germany... Well, congratulations for the more challenging game!
- if you're one of the Allies. Send 2-3 divisions, preferably cavalry, and retake French colonies. It's annoying (sometimes airforce is needed to wipe out rebels retreating in Spanish provinces, e.g.), but will keep the status quo.

4. Torpedoes... Yeah, that's sth like a bug- AI can add a brigade and the player can not. Others may see it simply as an easy way to enhance a Germany AI player. In any case, a German navy is almost invisible, torpedoes or not.

5. DH is NOT a simulation. If you look for such kind of game, you'd better try somewhere else. Gary Grigsby's War in the East? Men of war? Sudden strike? You can mention a dozen more popular (or not) games.
DH is like a boardgame. It simplifies economy, diplomacy and trade in order to let the player happily move back and forth tons of pawns (representing soldiers, planes and ships). It's not a historical simulation, it's a game with historical flavor.

p.s.: the most developed scenario in the vanilla is '33. In other scenarios you can find bumps in tech teams, ministers, generals, OOB, etc. The game is more of a communal project than a commercial one.
p.p.s.: don't get too grumpy ^^ did you like anything in DH?

[Durruti]

brutus, & all,

Thanks for the responses. I will check out the "abandon doctrine." Have never noticed it.

Like the Potential of a complex but playable WW II - & even WW I Game. Like the idea of Researching techs. Like to have some time & possibility to improve on History (it is a Game).

Not a fan of Paradox' other efforts (all on same game engine). Universales efforts - not my cup of coffee.

Like - mostly the Total War concepts (Rome TW I is my fav). And fun with recent Ultimate General Civil War. Still play Civ War General II. As a youth, played with friends the Avalon Hill War Games (pre-computer days) paper maps & little cardboard squares. Wife accused me of the Games being my "girl friends." Not true.

Some fun with Age of Empires & enjoyed Baldars' Gate, Myst, & Homeworld.

Like a well-programmed Finished PC Game that is fun to play, with a properly triggered opposition. Can finish an Age or CWG game, or UG battle - in 2 hours or less.

[Perc]

lol just buy HoI 4

[Subotai]

Originally posted by g0dd:

lol just buy HoI 4

Hoi4 has more issues than DH... looks nice though :)

[Gnubbolo]

the opinion on the forts is wrong.
the right divisions must be put according to the terrain.
2x9 armies per region with its defensive generals and does not pass anything by exploiting the dig in well.
the composition of the army: 3 militias (aa) + 3 div (art + eng *) + 3 div (art + med tank).
then other fast divisions move to cover from one region to another.

* in HOI2 is helping the dig in effect, in DH I do not know, but I think it's not too different.

[Gnubbolo]

but if you play with Germany, just withdraw and let the French advance of a region and then cut the salient and disintegrate the isolated divisions.
repeating the thing 3-4 times you can destroy at least fifty allied divisions, then break out on the whole front.

[Hat8]

Originally posted by gnubbolo 🐸:

but if you play with Germany, just withdraw and let the French advance of a region and then cut the salient and disintegrate the isolated divisions.
repeating the thing 3-4 times you can destroy at least fifty allied divisions, then break out on the whole front.

Or you could just do it historically and get it done faster while losing far less divisions.

[DatSnek]

Originally posted by Durruti:

I can see that game might be fun if one plays as Germany, or uses Cheats. But, if one chooses to try an Allied nation, esp. Britain or France, the cards are stacked against.

Yep. That's kinda the point with allies in general, you have to take over all allied contries except, maybe US, because the AI is dumb and cant plan and do any proper naval combat.
In general best solo contries are Germany, SU, US, Japan(?) in that order, UK is more suited for mp I think.
Overall SU is the easiest to manage.

[lakeclouds]

The game has its issues but I think you're a bit off the deep end here. Take a look at Strategic Command WW2: War in Europe or the GG series of game for more realism.

[jim]

Originally posted by Durruti:

Have previous extensive critique of DH (all the 'Hearts' efforts share these critiques) - on his forum - both as a Review, and as a comment.

Decided to reinstall DH & play-1936, as England. Not able to install torpedoes on my submarines (could do so previously). The only ships that would accept them, were Crusers & Battleships.

Switched (save-change country), to Germany. They had millions of modern submarines with torpedoes (a bug?). They had huge army, (& more on order). They have Panzer (armored), divisions, -which are possible for England, only after extensive researches (and not possible before Germany rolls over France).

I can see that game might be fun if one plays as Germany, or uses Cheats. But, if one chooses to try an Allied nation, esp. Britain or France, the cards are stacked against.

Other points - numbered (excuse habits of Hist Prof).

1. France withdraws every single soldier from Africa. Therefore if one "Rebel" is born, (sometimes spawned from the Spanish African colony-during their Civil War), it will overrun the entire French Africa, & then, invade the British colonies. This eccentricity will completely queer an ongoing Game.

2. War appears to be of masses of unconnected columns of soldiers attacking other columns of the enemy - THEREFORE, fortresses are unused. They are apparently worthless decorations (window dressing), despite the fact that they take much time & wealth to construct.

3. France (which suffered less from the Great Depression of the 1930s than any other country, except the Soviet Union), has severe financial problems - in the Game. Historically, France was able to afford to fortify a vast area (Maginol Line), and to maintain the largest Army in Western Europe - of 2 Million men. France lost to Germany in 1940, mostly for political & morale reasons. On the Book (as we say),, France should have been able to stop the German Army, as it had a better defensive position than it had in WW I (Alsace Lorraine fortified), and might have put up a better resistance as the Germans marched through Belgium (no surprise, as the Germans did the same maneuver in WW I.

4. Imagine if the British Army BEF, of 250,000, had actually stayed to fight, (but in this game, they never show - even though their presence could have been Hard-Coded by the Developers).

My Point:

In a 'GAME' a WW II Wargame at that, the player should have the options to go for victory, as Axis, or as Allies. France, under the control of a brilliant Player (that's us), should have an excellent chance to stop the Germans/Axis. Both Stalin, and Churchill were completely astonished by A- The French defeat, and B- The rapidity of the French defeat. Churchill went to Paris - after the German breakthrough at the Somme - and asked their Generals, where were their Reserves? - and was dismayed when told, that they (the French) had no reserves with which to plug the gap at the Somme. In 1940, France possessed sufficient manpower, including from their African colonies; their lack of reserves, was an error of incompetence in 1940, but need not be repeated by A Player of The Game in 2018.

When is a Game not a Game? (a Dr. House question).

I fail to see any redeeming value in this time waster.

I'll stick to Rome Total War I. Love flattening the 4 Roman factions with my Greeks (on Hard).

Also enjoy the occasional battle at Ultimate General Civil War. I play the Confeds.

Thanks for allowing me to vent.

Durruti

Play as england right now and had to hide too, even clearly strongest on the ocean. Germany had over 150 subs collected. You really don't wanna meet that. But see it from another side. These things make it more challenging so maybe not bad at all. You will stand victorious in the end if smart

[jim]

And btw. even with a few errors DH is 1 of the cheapest and best games on steam. Even today.
And it has not much bugs comparing other games. So it's just how you look at it

[Durruti]

***Discovered that the 1.05 patch is responsible for the torpedoes glitch/bug. Reinstalled DH at the old 1.04 level of patching, and torpedoes may be correctly placed on Allied submarines & destroyers.

Noticed that ai Japan is a monster, and if it is capable of proper Naval warfare & assaults, should be able to conquer Asia & the Pacific & at least, land troops in America.

"it's oaky if you don't like the game. Some like it, some- not. What's a bit worrisome is that you've got 300+h of DH in your account and you're still ready to rant rather than ask/forget the game."

Don't worry for me. I repeat - like many aspects of the game. Have tried many works around the unbalanced and bugged portions. And had some fun doing so. Wish it had been better Programmed (a little more sweat equity from the developers).

Agree:

Russia is the easiest to play.

1. plenty of resources/wealth.
2. secure from early invasion.
3. If you time an attack on Germany - for just when they are knee deep in heavy war with France (locked in combat in NW France & Belgium), and hit them with most of your Army, you will occupy Berlin, by the time the German Army reacts & redirects some of its troops from France, - to the East. Have accomplished this cheesy maneuver - too easy - makes for a Boring game.

The sneak attack is -Gamy- -Cheap- and allows an easy victory for Russia.

4. The alternative is to follow History and wait for Germany to attack, with the combined productive power of Germany, France, Belgium, Holland (most of Western & Central Europe. But as we can see the future (Game starts in 1930s), it is flagelistic to passively wait for doomsday - Barbarossa.


As Burt Reynolds said: "Play the game." {Deliverence)