SD GUNDAM G GENERATION CROSS RAYS

SD GUNDAM G GENERATION CROSS RAYS

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nobalkain Mar 26, 2020 @ 4:50am
Question about G-Lucifer
Why when using its Funel attack does it look like it has Moonlight Butterfly? I haven seen that Gundam Series.
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TouyaShiro Mar 26, 2020 @ 5:17am 
G-Lucifer does indeed have the Moonlight Butterfly. In this game, yes, only the Funnel attack displays this trait of G-Lucifer, but in EXVS2, it can use it in the same way the Turn A Gundam does (visually showing up while using EX Burst, and weaponizing it as a rushing EX Burst Attack). It's the only unit in the Gundam franchise with this system that isn't a Turn unit.

I don't know that much more than this, though. I've not seen G-Reco myself.
Last edited by TouyaShiro; Mar 26, 2020 @ 5:43am
Darth Hernia Mar 26, 2020 @ 6:58am 
Originally posted by nobalkain:
Why when using its Funel attack does it look like it has Moonlight Butterfly? I haven seen that Gundam Series.
Tomino Yoshiki (creator of UC, Turn A, and G-Recon) has disputed the timeline between the release of G-Recon TV series and upcoming G-Recon movies.

In the official Sunrise timeline G-Recon was the direct prequel to Turn A. Well technically speaking all GUNDAM timelines are prequels to Turn A as they all are part of the "black history" that end in Turn A and Turn X destroying human civilization with the Moonlight Butterflies. So G-Lucifer would be a precursor to Turn A and Turn X. And the war that remained unresolved at the end of G-Recon as it was cut-short could very well be the one that led to the creation of the Turn twins.

According to Tomino (who to this date disavows all the alternate universes as non-cannon and basically created Turn A out of spite for the GWX shows), G-Recon is the sequel to Turn A. And G-Lucifer is reverse engineered from the Turn Twins. The G-IT laboratory that created the G series in G-Recon is specialized in restoring and recreating forbidden technology. Every MS/MA created by them (all of them have names that begins with, well,"G") have some aspects of "black history" from previous GUNDAM timelines.

A recurring theme of GUNDAM since 0079 is that "humanity always makes the same mistakes". No matter how many time GUNDAM resets its timeline, history always ends the same way because humanity never learns.
TouyaShiro Mar 26, 2020 @ 5:39pm 
Originally posted by Darth Hernia:
In the official Sunrise timeline G-Recon was the direct prequel to Turn A.
This contradicts everything I know about the timeline, as I thought it was always supposed to take place after the Correct Century we see in Turn A. From what I know, Tomino stated in an interview that G-Reco is supposed to take place 500 years after Turn A does.

This isn't even accounting, of course, for what the model kits say about the Correct Century itself, as it's said that it occurs multiple times throughout history (meaning the one from the TV series is only one instance of Turn A restarting civilisation...

Also, what's this about "out of spite for the GWX shows"? Turn A literally contains footage from all Gundam series before it in the Dark History, including alternate timelines and in the manga, even Cosmic Era (Gundam SEED)! (One of the initial proposals was that it was supposed to include everything Tomino has ever done, including non-Gundam works...)

Originally posted by Darth Hernia:
A recurring theme of GUNDAM since 0079 is that "humanity always makes the same mistakes". No matter how many time GUNDAM resets its timeline, history always ends the same way because humanity never learns.
But at the same time, the people always have hope for the future. Or at least, that's how they frame it in Light of Life Chronicle U.C.
Darth Hernia Mar 26, 2020 @ 6:17pm 
Originally posted by TouyaShiro:
Originally posted by Darth Hernia:
In the official Sunrise timeline G-Recon was the direct prequel to Turn A.
This contradicts everything I know about the timeline, as I thought it was always supposed to take place after the Correct Century we see in Turn A. From what I know, Tomino stated in an interview that G-Reco is supposed to take place 500 years after Turn A does.

This isn't even accounting, of course, for what the model kits say about the Correct Century itself, as it's said that it occurs multiple times throughout history (meaning the one from the TV series is only one instance of Turn A restarting civilisation...

Also, what's this about "out of spite for the GWX shows"? Turn A literally contains footage from all Gundam series before it in the Dark History, including alternate timelines and in the manga, even Cosmic Era (Gundam SEED)! (One of the initial proposals was that it was supposed to include everything Tomino has ever done, including non-Gundam works...)

Originally posted by Darth Hernia:
A recurring theme of GUNDAM since 0079 is that "humanity always makes the same mistakes". No matter how many time GUNDAM resets its timeline, history always ends the same way because humanity never learns.
But at the same time, the people always have hope for the future. Or at least, that's how they frame it in Light of Life Chronicle U.C.
1. Tomino actually conceived G-Recon as a prequel but later changed his mind during production. I guess Sunrise didn't get the memo. Aspects of the G-Recon actually makes no sense if it happened only 500 years after Turn A. For instance, G-Recon takes place at "Regilid Century 1014" - meaning Turn A would have happened at in the middle of the RC calendar but there was no mention of it; also RC is supposed to directly follow UC - RC01 was supposed to be the collapse of UC due to a devastating war the exhausted all resources. Tomino deliberately arranged it this way so that all the AUs have no place on his personal GUNDAM timeline; And finally the Kuntala was supposed to have suffered discrimination for millenia. But the class system was never mentioned in Turn A... Tomino's 500-year sequel hypothesis just doesn't add up.

2. SEED is part of the retconned black history (per BANDAI's decision, not Tomino's) along with 00, AGE, and IBO, but Turn A came out before SEED so any mention of SEED in black history was retrofitted on Sunrise's part, not Tomino (Several frames of SEED was indeed made to look exactly like black history's depiction in Turn A). AFAIK no director's cut was produced for Turn A to include the 21st Century shows.

3. It is no secret that the creators of UC hated the AU GUNDAM shows. It wasn't just Tomino. Ōkawara Kunio and Yasuhiko Yoshikazu (mecha and character designers of 0079) all have bad mouthed AU GUNDAMs at some point. Tomino intended for GUNDAM to end after V. But when he quit Sunrise simply made G, which turned out to be a bigger success than V commercially and critically. Tomino really took offense at that as he felt G was mocking his hard sci-fi branchild. Ōkawara was really butthurt over people mocking his SEED designs as "cartoonish" and "old-fashioned". Yasuhiko called current GUNDAMs "toy commercials" just this year while promoting the GUNDAM Origin OVAs that he directed.
Last edited by Darth Hernia; Mar 27, 2020 @ 2:49am
TouyaShiro Mar 26, 2020 @ 6:52pm 
I feel like there's a lot of citation that you're missing here to back up your statements properly... The only one I know for sure that was said is that Yasuhiko's stated that the only Gundam for him is First Gundam (and specifically First Gundam rather than the whole UC, which is why he hinted at a project related to First Gundam that he's working on that we otherwise have no details of). I've not heard of Tomino literally trying to quit, I thought he was just at his lowest point during his battle with depression and basically wanted Gundam out of his hands while he took a break. Turn A is what happened after he won that battle.

For the record, what I said about Turn A and the Dark History, SEED's inclusion was only in the manga, not the show. I also thought it was ambiguous as to the nature of all series that came after it, though, as to where they would come within the history of the universe that is Gundam (as while they probably will eventually be part of the Correct Century, if the MG Turn A kit indicates, we'll probably never have a second Correct Century work appear in any format - especially with the passing of Syd Mead). And as for continuity, apparently the official stance from Sunrise is "anything animated is canon". (Yes, confusingly, that means that stuff that even retcons entire timelines from happening like Zeta Gundam: A New Translation is canon.) It may be why they're putting an effort to animate several novel and manga works after the success of Gundam Unicorn proved they could work...

To be fair on those Gundam SEED designs, they've got really, really huge backpacks...

Edits have been made above, but I'll cut myself off here before going any further. It's already tiring enough to deal with the arguments of the state of Gundam video games here, I don't need to add in discussion about continuity and creator statements on top of all that to argue about...
Last edited by TouyaShiro; Mar 26, 2020 @ 7:08pm
Darth Hernia Mar 27, 2020 @ 2:49am 
Originally posted by TouyaShiro:
I feel like there's a lot of citation that you're missing here to back up your statements properly... The only one I know for sure that was said is that Yasuhiko's stated that the only Gundam for him is First Gundam (and specifically First Gundam rather than the whole UC, which is why he hinted at a project related to First Gundam that he's working on that we otherwise have no details of). I've not heard of Tomino literally trying to quit, I thought he was just at his lowest point during his battle with depression and basically wanted Gundam out of his hands while he took a break. Turn A is what happened after he won that battle.

For the record, what I said about Turn A and the Dark History, SEED's inclusion was only in the manga, not the show. I also thought it was ambiguous as to the nature of all series that came after it, though, as to where they would come within the history of the universe that is Gundam (as while they probably will eventually be part of the Correct Century, if the MG Turn A kit indicates, we'll probably never have a second Correct Century work appear in any format - especially with the passing of Syd Mead). And as for continuity, apparently the official stance from Sunrise is "anything animated is canon". (Yes, confusingly, that means that stuff that even retcons entire timelines from happening like Zeta Gundam: A New Translation is canon.) It may be why they're putting an effort to animate several novel and manga works after the success of Gundam Unicorn proved they could work...

To be fair on those Gundam SEED designs, they've got really, really huge backpacks...

Edits have been made above, but I'll cut myself off here before going any further. It's already tiring enough to deal with the arguments of the state of Gundam video games here, I don't need to add in discussion about continuity and creator statements on top of all that to argue about...
Not everything animated is cannon. Thunderbolt, GUNDAM the Origin, and (not that anyone argues they are) BUILD and SD series are not. BANDAI's chief concern is GUNPLA and hobby. So what is cannon or not is more about "whether or not it mess up the MS development tree". I suspect the former 2 were excluded for this reason.

In the case of conflicting continuity, it all can be explained away as history repeating itself. The UC of Thunderbolt is not the same UC as 0079, but a reset timeline by Turn A. Same as the discrepancies between the Zeta TV and movies.
nobalkain Mar 27, 2020 @ 3:44am 
Had no idea this question would turn into such a crazy answer. I really had little to no idea about all this. Its all pretty fascinating, but at the same time just nuts. It seems Turn A just made thing far more confusing then it needed to be.

I just always thought anything AU was just its own thing and anything UC was in the same timeline. When you add Turn A though it just becomes a mess. Seems like they should have just left AU alone and been happy with UC being the first and original Gundam.
TouyaShiro Mar 27, 2020 @ 4:18am 
Originally posted by Darth Hernia:
Not everything animated is cannon. Thunderbolt, GUNDAM the Origin, and (not that anyone argues they are) BUILD and SD series are not. BANDAI's chief concern is GUNPLA and hobby. So what is cannon or not is more about "whether or not it mess up the MS development tree". I suspect the former 2 were excluded for this reason.
Yeah, cause they're not cannons, they're canon. :p
TBH I feel like Gundam canon is all possible solely because the Correct Century exists; even if it isn't, you could just cause the death and rebirth of the entire world and it all starts anew.

... Well, the Gundam Build series is probably its own entity considering it's a universe where Gundam is a fictional work like it is IRL, but hey - there has to be some explanation as to why space colonies exist in GBF and why GBD:R has suddenly turned into actual Gundam with the existence of a colony laser whose impact could be felt from Earth...

Also, uh... You still need a bridge that's not yet filled between the UC and the Late UC for why the Psycho-Frame disappeared, and why MS are tinier than ever. Here's to hoping Hathaway will properly bridge that gap a bit better, especially considering Unicorn exists period...

Originally posted by Darth Hernia:
In the case of conflicting continuity, it all can be explained away as history repeating itself. The UC of Thunderbolt is not the same UC as 0079, but a reset timeline by Turn A. Same as the discrepancies between the Zeta TV and movies.
Hold the heck up. I thought Thunderbolt in itself was supposed to take place in a completely different sector, a different side of the One Year War, for December Sky. The Full Armor Gundam in that series is explained as being born from similar concepts as the MSV FA-78-1...

Originally posted by nobalkain:
Had no idea this question would turn into such a crazy answer. I really had little to no idea about all this. Its all pretty fascinating, but at the same time just nuts. It seems Turn A just made thing far more confusing then it needed to be.

I just always thought anything AU was just its own thing and anything UC was in the same timeline. When you add Turn A though it just becomes a mess. Seems like they should have just left AU alone and been happy with UC being the first and original Gundam.
To be honest, I personally view the cycle of death and rebirth of the Correct Century as being moreso symbolic than anything, as a metaphor for Gundam continuing even after the supposed convergence of timelines. (And, on a more silly note, how Bandai will continue to make Gundam to make more merch and to make more money.)

It's a large reason why the aforementioned Light of Life Chronicle U.C. mini-movie exists - included with every U.C. Chronicle Blu-ray Box (I think that's the name) is this movie, and the intro part plays as a conversation between Amuro Ray and Lalah Sune bearing witness to the Turn A doing its thing and destroying civilisation. While I forget everything that they talk about, it basically leads into the two of them looking back on the world they used to be a part of, kicking off the main contents of the Blu-ray. At the end, we return to their view as they continue the conversation, and basically talk about the nature of their world and how while mankind might keep on repeating the same mistakes, their hope and the light of humanity endures throughout all of it, and they flash to visions of both stories they were not a part of as well as stories not yet told from where they are in time (as it proceeds to show shots of the alternate timelines, as well as showing off the key art for Mobile Suit Moon Gundam and the teaser image for the then-unreleased Hathaway).
Last edited by TouyaShiro; Mar 27, 2020 @ 4:25am
Darth Hernia Mar 27, 2020 @ 6:07am 
Originally posted by nobalkain:
Had no idea this question would turn into such a crazy answer. I really had little to no idea about all this. Its all pretty fascinating, but at the same time just nuts. It seems Turn A just made thing far more confusing then it needed to be.

I just always thought anything AU was just its own thing and anything UC was in the same timeline. When you add Turn A though it just becomes a mess. Seems like they should have just left AU alone and been happy with UC being the first and original Gundam.
It's really not a mess. Turn A is a masterpiece of a story that managed to both play fanservice homage to Tomino's own legacy and tell a self-contained story that doesn't rely on said homage to be compelling.

And there is none of that convoluted multiverse stuff like in Avengers: Endgame. The GUNDAM timeline is linear AFAWK.

Originally posted by TouyaShiro:
Originally posted by Darth Hernia:
In the case of conflicting continuity, it all can be explained away as history repeating itself. The UC of Thunderbolt is not the same UC as 0079, but a reset timeline by Turn A. Same as the discrepancies between the Zeta TV and movies.
Hold the heck up. I thought Thunderbolt in itself was supposed to take place in a completely different sector, a different side of the One Year War, for December Sky. The Full Armor Gundam in that series is explained as being born from similar concepts as the MSV FA-78-1...
Thunderbolt holds the dubious honor(?) of being the only GUNDAM sidestory explicitly excluded from the mecha development tree. None of the MS' featured in it is connects to any other work in UC. BANDAI has always prioritized mecha development tree over story because they are a toy-maker after all. This is very different treatment from canon sidestories such as A.O.Z. or even Moon GUNDAM. It is not exactly clear why.

But if I had to guess, BANDAI may be worried that Thunderbolt is just too M-rated. In Japan they care a lot about being kid-friendly. Parents complained that IBO S1 was "too violent", so imagine how Thunderbolt would've fared with them...
nobalkain Mar 27, 2020 @ 6:31am 
To me the Multiverse Theory makes more sense. All it is is saying is X happens in a different universe then Y.

The whole 'it all happens in the same Universe till Turn A and X are made to wipe everything out' makes less sense. I mean how do they keep getting made? Especially in time lines that have totally different MS theories and designs. I mean I am sorry but 00 QanT is far more powerful the A and X and IBO dont even have Beam Tech with all Suits being almost immune to it.
Last edited by nobalkain; Mar 27, 2020 @ 6:32am
Darth Hernia Mar 27, 2020 @ 6:36am 
Originally posted by nobalkain:
To me the Multiverse Theory makes more sense. All it is is saying is X happens in a different universe then Y.

The whole 'it all happens in the same Universe till Turn A and X are made to wipe everything out' makes less sense. I mean how do they keep getting made? Especially in time lines that have totally different MS theories and designs. I mean I am sorry but 00 QanT is far more powerful the A and X and IBO dont even have Beam Tech with all Suits being almost immune to it.
I agree technology-wsie multiverse theory makes much more sense. But then we would not have Turn A, arguably the greatest GUNDAM series ever made, whose entire story hinges on the GUNDAM timeline being linear.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, just watch Turn A GUNDAM. It's that damn good.
nobalkain Mar 27, 2020 @ 6:40am 
I would watch it if I could, but I have no official way to do so.

I doubt the story would be made worse if he had just said it was at the very end of the UC timeline and that was it. He could have even said that the events just restart the UC timeline allowing for Reboot or new stories in the UC, like Thunderbolt, that dont fit in with the Original. Same story without all the mess of adding the AU timelines.
TouyaShiro Mar 27, 2020 @ 7:14am 
Originally posted by Darth Hernia:
Thunderbolt holds the dubious honor(?) of being the only GUNDAM sidestory explicitly excluded from the mecha development tree. None of the MS' featured in it is connects to any other work in UC. BANDAI has always prioritized mecha development tree over story because they are a toy-maker after all. This is very different treatment from canon sidestories such as A.O.Z. or even Moon GUNDAM. It is not exactly clear why.
Uh... I don't think MS development tree is the most reliable ground for arguing what's canon or not, but that's just me. Besides, most of the MS featured are basically modified versions of existing One Year War MS, aren't they? It's like this cause of the Thunderbolt Sector the series takes place in, MS development tree be damned. It's not like it's a Beltorchika's Children or Hi-Streamer scenario where both of them are basically alternate takes on the same story...

(And on that note, I know for sure that Gundam Unicorn changes what version of CCA and the UC they follow based on the medium - the novel, IIRC, follows Beltorchika's Children, and the OVA follows from the CCA movie instead.

Originally posted by Darth Hernia:
But if I had to guess, BANDAI may be worried that Thunderbolt is just too M-rated. In Japan they care a lot about being kid-friendly. Parents complained that IBO S1 was "too violent", so imagine how Thunderbolt would've fared with them...
I doubt it. Apparently Glory of the Losers is far bloodier than the series it's based on (one of the least bloody in the franchise). Gundam has an image that can appeal to many kinds of people, I feel, and I hardly think they shy away from the original "War is hell" theme that much of the entries in the series follow.

Also, why do you think they have a priority on a family-friendly image when they're literally in the middle of adapting one of the most depressing-as-hell novels in the Universal Century?
Darth Hernia Mar 27, 2020 @ 10:23am 
Originally posted by nobalkain:
To me the Multiverse Theory makes more sense. All it is is saying is X happens in a different universe then Y.

The whole 'it all happens in the same Universe till Turn A and X are made to wipe everything out' makes less sense. I mean how do they keep getting made? Especially in time lines that have totally different MS theories and designs. I mean I am sorry but 00 QanT is far more powerful the A and X and IBO dont even have Beam Tech with all Suits being almost immune to it.
1. 00quanT is not more powerful than the Turn twins. Moonlight Butterfly is bar none the strongest weapon in all of GUNDAM. In fact, 00quanT is not even conceived as a weapon but a communication device. It will have to get into the Seven Sword configuration to be effective in MS vs. MS combat, which of course never happened because 00quanT was only ever deployed once. Game stats doesn't neccessarily reflect canon.

2. IBO does have beam tech. Hashmal has a beam cannon, even in this game. They are just: a. ineffective against nanolaminate armor and b. banned by Ghjallerhorn as "inhuman weapon of mass destruction" (same as Dansleif).

3. Many of the different technological APPLICATIONS across the series can just be recurring laws of physics under different names. For example, Minovsky Particles (UC), GN Particles (00), and Ahab Wave (IBO) have many of the same properties (near-infinite source of energy, disrupts radar, can be used to fuel beam weapon and propel MS, etc.), just applied differently. Other examples include DG Cells = ELS, Newtype = quantum brain wave, nanolaminate armor = ABC, etc..
Last edited by Darth Hernia; Mar 27, 2020 @ 10:26am
TouyaShiro Mar 27, 2020 @ 10:38am 
Originally posted by Darth Hernia:
1. 00quanT is not more powerful than the Turn twins. Moonlight Butterfly is bar none the strongest weapon in all of GUNDAM. In fact, 00quanT is not even conceived as a weapon but a communication device. It will have to get into the Seven Sword configuration to be effective in MS vs. MS combat, which of course never happened because 00quanT was only ever deployed once. Game stats doesn't neccessarily reflect canon.
... It does have seven swords, though... GN Sword V plus six GN Sword Bits. Seven Sword is not the win condition in any case, it's stopping the Turn A from doing its thing with the Moonlight Butterfly - which obviously isn't easy once it gets going, so you'd need the initiative. At least the 00 QAN[T] can use quantization to teleport, so it could probably dart the hell outta there without a scratch...

Also, the Seven Sword configuration is not necessarily needed for effective combat against other MS; see Gundam Exia Repair II, which reduced the number to 3 but had an overall increase in combat potential thanks to the GN Beam Sabers being of a newer model (which can be used variably as Beam Sabers or Beam Daggers) and the GN Sword Kai having the same tech as the GN Sword III for its cutting edge. I'd argue the 00 QAN[T] has the edge on everyone else, actually, because six of its Seven Swords are remote weaponry, which can attack at a distance, or even hold the foe in place as indicated by the Full Saber's Trans-Am to finish the job with another weapon.

Oh, and... The 00 QAN[T] was deployed once, but it came back STRONG as heck. And super alien. Even when it's only video games that have properly displayed this thing performing attacks, I probably wouldn't doubt that it has serious combat potential when this thing's merged with an alien species that can learn by assimilation and create just about anything as a countermeasure.

Originally posted by Darth Hernia:
3. Many of the different technological APPLICATIONS across the series can just be recurring laws of physics under different names. For example, Minovsky Particles (UC), GN Particles (00), and Ahab Wave (IBO) have much of the same particle (near-infinite source of energy, disrupts radar, can be used to fuel beam weapon and propel MS, etc.), just applied differently. Other examples include DG Cells = ELS, Newtype = quantum brain wave, etc..
Not every concept is one-to-1, though. I would also personally explain the way the world resets and discovers its various concepts each loop as simply being the way the course of history plays out in each universe, which have fundamental differences in the way the history of their worlds play out before we reach the story we see in the media. Should one believe that the Regild Century actually takes place concurrently with the Correct Century of Turn A, it would at least help to explain why the Rose of Hermes Blueprints exist as a remnant of the UC - it could be a portion of the Dark History databanks that were fashioned into those blueprints in the first place. But I'll leave it at that because I feel like I'd need to watch G-Reco first before I go further with these theories.
Last edited by TouyaShiro; Mar 27, 2020 @ 10:41am
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Date Posted: Mar 26, 2020 @ 4:50am
Posts: 30