Sneak, Muffle, Invisibility, and why you need all 3

[Discarded]

so i went out and tested this on my mage, who has a sneak of 52 and 0 perks in the tree, and has the Silent Casting perk from the illusion line.

testing this with a pair of frost trolls and a dragon, i equiped some crafted muffle boots (skill 100 all perks) basically....

when using invisibility and Muffle, testing both the spell and the boots, both the dragon and the trolls had no problem at all detecting, following, and attacking me. I might as well had been holding a torch in my hand.

however, with muffle and invisibility, when ever i went into Sneak mode both the dragon and the trolls instantly stopped following me and began to wonder - searching for me. Whenever i stood up, they instantly knew where i was and the combat music started up again.

then, i removed muffle and the boots, and with sneak mode + invisibility they could hear me almost immediatly and were able to track and attack me. not as well as not sneaking, but still pretty bad considering your invisible. equiping the boots they immediatly lost track and began wondering around in search for me.

so without Sneak, invisibility and muffle are useless against creatures that can smell or are otherwise hard to sneak by.

edit: if your using all three and you get attacked because they had either seen you before you went into hiding or because you got to close, they will attack but if you keep back peddling you should be able to drop out of immediat danger.

UPDATE: 12/8/2013

I have discovered that with Perks at +40%, muffle, and fortify sneak gear at i think it was an additonal 50% i could not sneak up on a dragon in moonlight nor the shadows. however with a fortify sneak potion added on at another 40% increase i could hide in the shadows and shoot him without detection.

then i discovered that with gear giving 100% extra sneak, 40% from perks, and a 72% fortify sneak potion i could should a dragon and remain hidden in the open moonlight.

so i was wrong about needing invisibility, you just need to be insanely good at sneaking to fool dragons, bears, and trolls. you still have to be in sneak mode for invisibility to be worth a damn otherwise they hear you and stuff. so if your serious about stealth know that the illusion tree is least important if you use sneak attacks as your method of madness. Sneak and Alchemy shouldnt be ignored. on the sneak tree you really only need to go up to Light Footed because Silence is useless with muffle but you could get Roll, which is like being able to sprint and is cool for getting around sneaky sneaky like.

[Gropax]

its also tied to the weight of your armor and gear equiped. i have no problems using Sneak muffle quiet casting combo and then casting bound bow or daggers and killing people. but then again i use light or no armor. also what spells were you trying to use if its disturction magic well they see that instantly and fury alerts them to you also.

Originally posted by DragonBane:

testing this with a pair of frost trolls and a dragon, i equiped some crafted muffle boots (skill 100 all perks) basically....

you got this wrong here it is from the wiki

Muffle is an effect that reduces the noise your armor makes when you move. The "moves silently" description that appears on Muffle Items is not necessarily true.
Muffle provides a multiplier equal to (1 - Total_Muffle_Magnitude) to your total worn armor weight when calculating the noise made by armor, meaning at a magnitude of 1+ your armor makes no noise whatsoever. All muffle effects stack additively. Values over 1 have no additional benefit.


50% Muffle is also available via the Muffled Movement perk.
100% Muffle is also available via the Silence perk.
The magnitude of the Muffle effect is significant. However, the magnitude of enchantments and spells is not displayed in-game. Most built-in enchanted items have a magnitude of 0.5, meaning they are only 50% effective.
The actual effectiveness of the Muffle effect for magnitudes below 1.0 depends on armor weight, i.e. 50% of the noise of Daedric is still much higher than 100% of the noise of Elven.
All custom-enchanted Muffle effects have a magnitude of 1.0, regardless of skill level or soul gem used, making them greatly superior to most built-in enchanted Muffle items.
Muffle also seems to affect the sounds of your weapons (excluding bows) and not just your footsteps.


And this is for Invisibility


Invisibility makes the target become completely invisible for the duration of the spell. Although you cannot be seen when you are invisible, you can still be heard, meaning enemies may still detect you. You are more likely to be detected if you:

move too close to an enemy.
swing a weapon (even if you don't hit someone with it).
run into a mobile object or walk on a trap.
make noise, including casting the spell without using the Quiet Casting perk.

[Discarded]

i used robes, nothing more. i knew the boots were at full strength, but with the unofficial skyrim patch you never know what they might deem is their right to change so i wnated to be sure they were equal to the spell.

with robes, they could hear me without muffle. so it's neccisary no matter what your doing/wearing. i just find it odd that, muffle and invis is near useless if your not sneaking. Finally, when i stopped using sneak mode in my test, i didn't move. yet they still knew exactly where i was.

on an alternate character who used a full sneak tree and muffled dark brotherhood boots i was never able to sneak past dragons visually. i could get close to a sleeping dragon but sight was out of the question, and finally when they knew where i was it was impossible to sneak away because even though the Eye for the sneak meter wasen't showing detected, the dragons still knew where i was and attacked. which led to this experiment to see how adding invisibility might work on dragons.

[shiva7663]

The Oakflesh spell is very loud without the quiet casting perk. I cringe when I have to use it while sneaking. On the other hand, when you hear an enemy cast it, you know to go on full alert. heh.

[𝕊𝕋𝕌ℝ𝕄-𝕂𝔸𝕋]

Thanks for the heads up, your dedication to your experiment in this and taking the time to pursue it and share your findings with the rest of the community is admirable and I salute you. Thank you :)

[Discarded]

updated for anyone still looking for answers

[Dupmeister]

Thanks for this. I am building a sneaky stabby thief and I was looking for more information on how all the perks and skills combined to get the best effect.

[gnewna]

I've only ever used invisibility a few times, as (possibly I was doing something wrong, this was on my first or second character) I actually found I was located *more* easily than when I was 'just' sneaking with the muffle boots on.

[Incunabulum]

Originally posted by Wizard:

when using invisibility and Muffle, testing both the spell and the boots, both the dragon and the trolls had no problem at all detecting, following, and attacking me. I might as well had been holding a torch in my hand.

however, with muffle and invisibility, when ever i went into Sneak mode both the dragon and the trolls instantly stopped following me and began to wonder - searching for me. Whenever i stood up, they instantly knew where i was and the combat music started up again.

Yeah, that's because Muffle only works *when you're sneaking* and Invisibility doesn't eliminate the sounds you make.