Dark Elf Racism

[Didz]

Bit of an odd question, but can anyone with a more detailed knowledge of The Elder Scrolls world provide me with some information of how Dark Elf racism would manifest itself in Skyrim.

I've been reading some of the lore references online, and as I understand it Dark Elves consider themselves superior to all other the other races, and view the lesser races partcularly Khargiit and Argonians as little more than slaves and beasts of burden.

So, how would this manifest itself in their dealings with other races, are there racist taunts or preconceptions of racial stereotyping.

In the Warhammer World, elves in general consider humans to be rash, impulsive, destructive and smelly. The general explanation being that humans have such short lives they never really have time to mature and are too desperate to achieve something before they die to spend the time to understand the true nature of the world they spend so little time in.

The classic complaint being that everything a human creates is dead before he finishes it, a reference to the fact that humans cut down tree's to build their homes and weapons and boats, whereas Elves craft their dwellings and ships from living wood imbued with the spiirits of their ancestors. An elven bow for example is not just a wooden stick, but a living entity bound to the spirit of its owner, which is why no human in warhammer can shoot one.

Elves also find being in close proximity with humans, or spending time in their homes physically demanding due to the smell of their body odour and all their rotting food. By comparison humans note that Elves always seem to smell fragrant, even the males, although they don't seem to bathe any more often than they do. The assumption being that they must have scented sweat.

In Skyrim I don't see any real evidence of these sort of racial differences, in fact there seem to be inconsistencies between what is written, and what is actually depicted in the game.

For example the Grey-Quarter in Windhelm seems to suggest that Dark Elves are inferior to humans, and yet the Dark Elf background suggests that no Dark Elf would ever accept those conditions, and would actually be expecting the human population of Windhelm to be subservient to their demands.

Just wondered if anyone can clarify the logic behind these inconsistencies, and how a Dark Elf character ought to behave and interact with other races in Skyrim.

[__-__-__]

There are actions foreigners can take that will gain the trust of the Dunmer, it just takes quite alot of consistent effort, but after a while they will be treated as well as any native, sort of earning the native status.

The Nords and Dunmer have been fighting eachother in little wars for thousands of years, Windhelm was likely at the center of many of these wars. Then the people of Windhelm hear that Elves have banned the worship of Talos, I doubt they really care which Elves, then Ulfric starts his "Skyrim for the Nords" movement and, despite living in the area for years, non of the Dark Elves are Nords, the Dunmer see all the hatred being levelled thier way they then decide to either never support the Stormcloaks or openly support the Empire, meaning that most Stormcloak supporters see them as cowards or traitors.

[Skelehertz]

They seem to think their ancestors are better than everyone else's.

[Matthew]

Publicado originalmente por Didz:

From what I've read so far the Dunmer have absolutely no connection at all with the Aldermeri Dominion. The membership of that government and membership of the Thalmor is limited to Altmer (High Elves) and Bosmer (Wood Elves), so the whole 'Let's pick on the Dunmer thing in Windhelm is completely unjustified by the background material' In fact, the Dunmer probably have as much reason to hate the Thalmor as the Nords do.

Could simply be due to the influx of refugees. A sudden increase in population often puts strain, which in turn results in conflict. I don't dig into the lore as much as some of you folk, but the impression I got from Windhelm was simply that the Nords are suddenly sharing half their city with foreigners.

Edit: nvm, Sesh basically said the same thing above.

[Cat]

1st to note: The only so proud dark elves are of the noble houses, we see a lot of that in Morrowind, and few cases in the Dragonborn DLC Solstheim island. The others are rather adaptive and act just like anyone in Skyrim.
2nd to note: The Skyrim populace in general does not consider the Dark Elves worse or anything, the Stormcloaks do, and even then just the very extremists. So it's not an inconsistency, the dark elves are treated same as everyone else but by the Stormcloaks where some tend to hate and look down on every single race other than the Nords. Why are they not treated better because of their "superiority"? Because only Dark Elves really think so highly of themselves, as do Imperials in being from the Empire, and as do the Nords for being hardy people with deep culture and as do the High Elves for being the most profficient at magic. Every race in Skyrim seems to have something to boast and they do it, but it doesn't actually make them any better.

Also the Dark Elf being superior I never noticed, but I do remember now that there were slave markets in Morrowind, selling Argonians and Khajiit. Not to mention other races also consider those thieves and caravaneers. I suppose that puts them a bit higher up the food chain, if you really must place them somewhere.

[Haunt Fox]

Well, when crap starts going down in a place, the least popular minority will take the heat. It's almost inevitable, and is probably a major group evolutionary/adaptative thing whether we like it or not - it seems to be such a strong, and even natural impulse (moral judgement aside). It's the consequences that are the worst, at least if the people in question have nowhere to run to, or anywhere to be deported to that is willing or forced to take them. :/

As Sesh mentions, the Nords and Dark Elves do seem to have a history, but no, I don't see where the Dark Elves have anything to do with the current situation, so still don't deserve it.

High elves, well, I don't care for them myself, so if the Nords want to get all Archie Bunker on their pointy heads, I'm fine with that. :P

[Maloy20]

The dumner and altmer hate each other for religious reasons.

The Thalmor want to wipe out the Dark Elves more than they want to wipe out humanity, which implies the Dark Elves will be sticking pretty close to the Empire in the future


Red Mountain explosion destroyed a part part of Morrowind but not the whole province, the rest was invaded by Argonians who committed genocide upon the Dark Elf people and then left back to Black Marsh(apparently)

[Maloy20]

Publicado originalmente por isengrim:

Well, when crap starts going down in a place, the least popular minority will take the heat. It's almost inevitable, and is probably a major group evolutionary/adaptative thing whether we like it or not - it seems to be such a strong, and even natural impulse (moral judgement aside). It's the consequences that are the worst, at least if the people in question have nowhere to run to, or anywhere to be deported to that is willing or forced to take them. :/

As Sesh mentions, the Nords and Dark Elves do seem to have a history, but no, I don't see where the Dark Elves have anything to do with the current situation, so still don't deserve it.

High elves, well, I don't care for them myself, so if the Nords want to get all Archie Bunker on their pointy heads, I'm fine with that. :P

I'd like to neutralize the situation in regards to the Nords.

Historically the Nords have been at war with literally every power in tamriel and some from outside of it, sometimes they started the war and sometimes someone else did.

The Nords are (SUPPOSED TO) hold very closely to their ancestral traditions and history(but Bethesda changed that). A great great grandchild might go on a quest to kill a dark elf who defeated his great great grandfather, that kind of stuff.

A culture with such strong ties to its history is bound to be filled with hatred for its old enemies

[Haunt Fox]

Ongoing blood feuds. Yeah, I can dig that. Hatfields and McCoys, sort of thing. You stole our pig, so we stole your cow, so you shot our uncle, and we shot your daddy.

(Though coming from WoW, I've had enough of hearing Taran Zhu ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ about that sort of thing, though we did bring our war to his stupid doorstep.)

[Maloy20]

Publicado originalmente por Didz:

Publicado originalmente por Sesh:

Dunmer use the words N'wah, S'wit and Outlander to refer to those they don't like, these terms can apply to anyone even other Dunmer (they see a big difference between native Dunmer and outlander Dunmer).

Oh! that's useful stuff.

N'Wah means: "Foreigner" or "Slave" - An insult or taunt.
S'Wit I can't find a translation for, the only suggestion is 'Outlander', but I'm not sure that makes sense in every context it gets used.

Sera and Muthsera are Dunmer for 'Sir and Madam' and are terms of respect afforded by Dark Elf NPC's to my Dark Elf character. Though presumably they would never be used to address a N'Wah.

Interestingly, Dunmer don't seem to distinquish between a foriegner (e.g. a non-dunmer) and a slave. The term of address used means the same thing, e.g. all foreigners are by definition slaves.

Publicado originalmente por isengrim:

Well, as that mouthy guard that I beat up indicated, the Nords seem to be (unfairly!) dumping their hostility of Aldmeri/Altner on the Dark Elves.

Yes, there is actually something weird going on there.

From what I've read so far the Dunmer have absolutely no connection at all with the Aldermeri Dominion. The membership of that government and membership of the Thalmor is limited to Altmer (High Elves) and Bosmer (Wood Elves), so the whole 'Let's pick on the Dunmer thing in Windhelm is completely unjustified by the background material' In fact, the Dunmer probably have as much reason to hate the Thalmor as the Nords do.

'Is it cos they is black?' one has to ask.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNi-BB-j0u0
Just in case you don't get the reference.

Has to do with their language I figure. We see that with a lot of ancient languages, they don't have words for what we did because there was no need at the time.

A slave and foreigner were probably pretty synonymous terms back in the day before they got conquered

[Maloy20]

My gift to you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBnatzluzNE

[VisciousFishes]

To just split the crowd here but - the Nords are not the rightful owners of the land of Skyrim. And before someone disagrees with me my source is the UESP wiki site. To directly quote it -

"Skyrim, the northernmost province of Tamriel, is a cold and mountainous region known as the Old Kingdom, Mereth, or the Fatherland.[2][3] Many past battles have given it a ravaged appearance and many ruins.[2][4] Though currently inhabited primarily by Nords, the Elves who they replaced had resided there since time immemorial."

The Elves were deposed by the Nords when Ysgramor and the 500 first discovered the lands and went to war with the Elves. The land was stolen by the Nords.

The wiki goes on to say this -

"The Aldmer and Snow Elves occupied Skyrim until the late Merethic Era, when the final wave of Nordic immigration, led by Ysgramor, finally established Nordic supremacy in modern-day Skyrim.[2][12] Settlers from Atmora crossed the Sea of Ghosts and made landfall here many times, often clashing with those who had already established themselves.[4] They often lived in harmony with the Aldmer, though they sometimes clashed.[2][12]"

And further more, specifically in regards to the history of the Altmer:----

"The modern Altmer are believed to resemble the original Aldmer. The Altmer today hold their ancestors in great reverence and constantly strive to emulate their ways; it has even been alleged that they selectively breed for Aldmer-like features.[7]

The term Aldmeri is occasionally used as a catch-all term for all elves,[8] and is also used when referring to members of the Aldmeri Dominion"

If you'd like further information then the UESP.net/wiki is the best place I have found to get the information.

Skyrim never actually belonged to the Nords, they stole it from the Elves and therefore the High Elves and Dark Elves actually have more claim to the lands than any Imperial or Nord. The full history of the Aldmer, how they settled in the Summeret Isles and became the Atlmer is an interesting one. All the Elven races share a common ancestor and it was their divergence in geography that lead to the individual races. Skyrim does not belong to the Nords or the Imperials. Theoretically the Dunmer have more claim to the area than the Nords. The High Elves or Aldmeri Dominion (which isn't just High Elves BTW) have a far better and more legitimate claim than any "man" or similar race - not Breton, Nord, Imperial or Redguard.

[Gnosarchist]

Publicado originalmente por Didz:

Thank's for all your feedback, I must admit I had to look up who the Bosmer were as they hadn't featured very prominently in the background I'd read. So, now I know that Bosmer are 'Wood Elves', who are a seperate race in the Warhammer World too. The Elves that currently rule Skyrim are the High Elves aren't they (The Altmer)?

It was they (or rather an elitist sect of their race 'The Thalmor') who founded the Aldmeri Dominion on Summerset Isle and now impose their rule over Skyrim through the Imperial Army amd the justicar. They even supervise the teaching of magic to humans in Skyrim through their adviser Ancano at The College of Winterhold.

So, as I understand it the Altmer are the true dominant race in Skyrim, and the Imperial Nobles are really just puppets of their regime who are allowed to retain their thrones in return for complying with their laws.

But the Dark Elves (Dunmer) are not part of the Aldmeri Dominion. It was their ancestors the Chimer who bretrayed the godess Azura and were cursed by her (or it) and became the Dunmer, but not before that had effectively completed the genocide of the dwarven race from the mortal plane, eradicating all dwarves from mer. (One gets the impression that the game designers had a thing about dwarves.)

So, just to clarify are there no Dunmer left in Morrowwind and on the Vvardenfell, were they all forced to flee and take refuge in other provinces, and if so which race currently rules Morrowind?

Also what is the relationship between the Altmer and the Dunmer?

In Warhammer High Elves and Dark Elves are openly hostile towards each other, mainly because it was a civil war within the High Elf ruling class than led to the sundering and the birth of the Darl Elves in Warhammer. But the background is different in Skyrim. So, do the Dunmer consider themselves betrayed by the Altmer, who seem to have grabbed power over the mortal plane in the wake of their misfortune?

Also changing the subject slightly what would a Dark Elf call the other races?

In my WFRP game, characters tended to use racist slang to refer to other races in the game.

So, for example humans referred to wood elves as 'Twigs', which was both a reference to their tall slender body shape and the fact that they like to live in tree's.

Dwarves were referred to as 'stumps' or 'stumpie' as they looked like they had been cut down to size.

Elves referred to Humans as 'children', or usually 'silly children'; 'dirty children'; or 'smelly children' depending on the circumstances. When Elves visit human area's which is quite rare in Warhammer, they generally interact with humans in the same way as a western tourist might treat the population of a third world country. A sort of mixture of pity and distain, mixed with a barely suppressed desire to avoid being touched by one of them in case they catch something nasty.

No doubt the Dark Elves in warhammer would probably behave more like a bunch of perverts on a sex tour of a third world country, but the Dunmer don't seem to be tainted by the same base urges as warhammer Dark Elves.

However, nothing like that seems to come across in Skyrim, (well not without adding some of the more creative mods anyway). Their seems to be a much higher level of social integration in Skyrim than one would expect from the background material provided.

Elves and dwarves do live in human cities in warhammer but are not just segregated they actually have their own enclaves where their own laws and cultures take precedence. In the free city of Marienburg for example the sea elves occupy 'Sith Rionnasc'naishathir' more commoonly known as 'Elf Town', which is managed by a council of Lords appointed from the eight kindred who occupy the enclave overseen by an Exarch from the court of the Pheonix King. Law in this area and in a similar Dwarven enclave in Nuln is adminstered by a locally recruited law enforcement agency according to local traditions, and players have to be warned that if their characters enter these enclaves their actions will be judged according to local laws.

So, its a much more segregated relationship in Warhammer compared to Skyrim, which makes it much easier to roleplay the racial differences, without running into contraditions.

Holy Gods! The Nords are the dominant race of Skyrim, Morrowind is still inhabited by Dunmer, the Imperials are NOT puppets of the Thalmor (who are not a race but a sort of KGB of the Dominion) and stop comparing the Elder Scrolls to Warhammer, they are NOTHING alike.

[VisciousFishes]

Publicado originalmente por High-Sovereign:

Holy Gods! The Nords are the dominant race of Skyrim, Morrowind is still inhabited by Dunmer, the Imperials are NOT puppets of the Thalmor (who are not a race but a sort of KGB of the Dominion) and stop comparing the Elder Scrolls to Warhammer, they are NOTHING alike.

Actually considering they're both loosely based on the Tolkein LOTR stories and combined with a healthy amount of "artistic licence" they are very similar. And let's not forget that Tolkeins work was loosly based on the translation of Beowulf that he helped to translate while working as a don at either Cambridge or Oxford (can't remember the exact location) it's hard to say that the work Tolkein did wasn't driectly influenced by the work he did on Beowulf. The whole idea of Orcs and Elves sharing a common ancestry was actually discussed in the first Lord of The Rings book.

In fact, I am unsure there was such a genre as the whole "high fantasy" stuff before Tolkein's Hobbit book. On that I could be a little wrong but I am sure somone will correct me. Tis the internet after all. :)

[Gnosarchist]

Publicado originalmente por jakethebusker:

Publicado originalmente por High-Sovereign:

Holy Gods! The Nords are the dominant race of Skyrim, Morrowind is still inhabited by Dunmer, the Imperials are NOT puppets of the Thalmor (who are not a race but a sort of KGB of the Dominion) and stop comparing the Elder Scrolls to Warhammer, they are NOTHING alike.

Actually considering they're both loosely based on the Tolkein LOTR stories and combined with a healthy amount of "artistic licence" they are very similar. And let's not forget that Tolkeins work was loosly based on the translation of Beowulf that he helped to translate while working as a don at either Cambridge or Oxford (can't remember the exact location) it's hard to say that the work Tolkein did wasn't driectly influenced by the work he did on Beowulf. The whole idea of Orcs and Elves sharing a common ancestry was actually discussed in the first Lord of The Rings book.

In fact, I am unsure there was such a genre as the whole "high fantasy" stuff before Tolkein's Hobbit book. On that I could be a little wrong but I am sure somone will correct me. Tis the internet after all. :)

Nonetheless, the lore is different. Also, HP Lovecraft has some fantasy, but I wouldn't consider his writings high fantasy.

[VisciousFishes]

[quote=High-Sovereign;630800446913697363

Nonetheless, the lore is different. Also, HP Lovecraft has some fantasy, but I wouldn't consider his writings high fantasy. [/quote]

That's where the whole "artistic license" comes in. Altering the lore to fit the situation - much like some users on the steam forums with this game - I think that's called irony. I'm not sure that HP Lovecrafts had as much of an influence on the genre as Tolkein did though. Not read any of his stuff but as far as I can tell that author was a sci-fi/gothic horror writer and not someone who delved into Elves and Dwarves all that much.