Innocence Lost = Character integrity lost.

[Didz]

I'm in a quandary since my character Garik completed the Innocence Lost Quest, in the only way allowed by the game designers.

Anyone who has watched my Epic Fail video will know that I wasn’t very happy about this quest and its restricted resolution options. As far as I’m concerned it was a perfect example of blatant railroading by the game designers which in the roleplaying community is considered to be the sign of lazy game design and poor GM’ing.

Nevertheless, following my failed attempt at recording the video I did go back and allowed my desire to complete the quest to override my better judgement by murdering the old woman. The problem is that since doing so I’ve lost all interest in continuing with my characters story.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=204666453
Garik was intended to be a freelancer, an honourable warrior struggling to make a name for himself in a dangerous and imperfect world. But by killing the old woman he has become a murderer and a mercenary who will kill anyone for a handful of silver (40 septums if I remember correctly).
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=200093405
So, I’ve since realised that my rash actions have undermined my own characters profile and it strikes me that no matter what he does now his future will always be sullied by the fact that he has killed an innocent for money.

As a consequence I’ve found that I’ve lost all interest in playing him, I’ve actually loaded the game a few times and gone to select his next quest, but it all seems pretty pointless. Not because I want to play the good guy, in fact, I’m thinking that my next character will be an unprincipled power mad sorcerer, who will do anything to dominate those around him and become immortal.

So, it’s nothing to do with the fact that Garik can no longer be considered good, it’s more a case that everything he now does becomes irrelevant. He is basically a hypocrite, his back story no longer makes any sense, and no matter how much good he does now he will still be tainted by his past actions.

I thought about trying to make the rest of his story some sort of agonised personal quest for redemption, but to be honest I don’t believe in that concept even in the real world so I don’t want to have to roleplay it. I believe you are what you are, and what you are is reflected in your actions. So, Garik is an unprincipled murderer and will remain so no matter what he does from now on.

Whilst I am annoyed with Bethesda for claiming to provide an open RPG environment and then providing nothing but a series of scripted linear plot lines. At the moment I’m much more annoyed with myself for allowing my desire to progress this stupid quest to undermine the integrity of the character I’m role playing.

The only thing I can think of at the moment is either to abandon my game and start again with a new character, or, try a find a saved game from before the murder and pick up Gariks story from there. It will just mean yet another unresolved quest in his quest log.

Perhaps a bigger concern is whether it is even viable to roleplay an honourable character in this game, or even an evil character for that matter. It seems at the moment that the only characters that are vialbe have to be unprincipled opportunists, that just follow the plot. So, everyone ends up the same regardless of where they start from.

For example, I do give up on Garik and restart with a power crazed sorcerer am I going to find the opposite problem where he’s forced into performing selfless acts of heroism for no real reward or benefit to himself.

Can you even progress a character in this game without conforming to the social norms?

Is it even possible to learn powerful magic without becoming a compliant little novice and going to the Skyrim’s version of Hogwarts?

[zeromaveric]

have you seen the way that woman treats the kids in her care? to most people who have done this quest, they see her as an evil witch, and she rightfully is. to her, the orphans are nothing more than a paycheck from the city, or some drivel. her assistant treats the kids better than her, and pretty much all of the kids look at you as a hero for what you do

[Cerise]

I'd give you a medal or two if I had one.

In all honesty, this has got to be the greatest description of the problem I've ever seen. If your character, who is a really good person who helps everyone and stays away from evil, accidently happens to read the book Boethiah's Proving past level 30... you absolutely have to kill someone to complete it (same goes for the Molag Bal-quest, and numerous others). If you're evil and malicious, caring for nothing but your own well-being, it'd be more natural to, say, aid Miraak and let him take the world, yourself becoming some sort of... well, a comparison would be that you'd become like a With King, with Miraak being Sauron, if you catch my meaning.

Also, the problem you describe with losing interest in your character... it's almost painfully recognizable (the entire post in painfully recognizable, but that part slightly more). The game has a lot of freedom and you are allowed to do as you see fit, but they missed out on some important parts. My character, for example, would never in her life follow a talking dog, who also claimed to be owned by a Daedra, to a cave filled with gods-know-what, but since the quest is forced on you and you have no way of declining it, you're stuck with it and eventually you do it out of frustration of seeing it laughing at you in your quest journal.

If you had the option to simply say "No" to most quests and persons (I'm looking at you, Brynjolf), it'd already make the game a whole lot better, or at least get rid of the forced quests and dialogue.

Anyways, you've really hit the nail on the head with your story; thumbs up for that.

[Didz]

Everything you say is true.

That's why I wasted an entire evening searching Riften and the surrounding area for an alternative solution to this quest other than murder. Unfortunately, murdering an unarmed old woman, no matter how vile or smellie she might be is not justified.

I even tried using console commands to resolve the quest by moving Grelod out of the ophanage, but the game designers have made her immune to console interference. In my opinion it should be possible to resolve this quest without compromising your character.

There are several obvious alternatives which would either have resolved it without killing, or at least justified the killing, but the script as written doesn't seem to offer any alternate option to the player.

The other aspect of this quest I found bizare was the fact that you stumble across an individual who is obviously guilty of multiple murders, and is on the path to becoming an evil vengeful magical mastermind and you just have to walk away and leave the little bastard to corrupt the whole ophanage.

[Servatis]

you realize you don't have to complete the quest right? So unless you are OCD about your quest log and absolutely have to complete everything then there is no problem.

[Asmo]

Yeah the option to say No is severly lacking. But what can you say Skyrim is an unfinished game. and Bethesda doesnt want to finish it. (problem of current day game market. releasing unfinished and very buggy games is a thing these days. )

[mpd1958]

Let me ask you this, are you the thane of the Jarl of Dawnstar or Falkwreath? Did you do as the jarl asked. Kill a giant or a bandit leader? The Jarl of Falkwreat was in business with the bandits and the jarl of Dawnstar hates giants, so if you did their bidding you are already a murderer. If you do not want to kill the mean old bat then don't to the boy and simply ignor any quests that require murdering someone. That is what I do and I still have fun playing the game.

[Schwengelbengel]

its the starting quest for the dark brotherhood. everything which doesn't kill her wouldn't make any sense. but i understand your overall problem.

[Brandybuck]

JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE A QUEST DOES NOT MEAN YOU HAVE TO DO IT!

Seriously. If you're an OCD who can't help it, then do yourself a favor and stop playing the game now. Otherwise if you don't want to kill that evil old lady, then don't skill her. It's simple. Really simple. Just don't do it.

Ditto for Boethiah's quest. Just don't do it.

[[MEOW]Jolien99]

i dont like doing the thives gild quests.. since they also mess up the poor people of Riften (shopowners e.d)

[Brandybuck]

Would it be nice if there were more options? Like calling the cops? Organizing a protest? Kidnap that kid and drag him back to Riften? Sure, but you could have fifteen different options for every quest, but the consequences would be many more years developing a game. Every new option to a quest doubles its complexity. You have to draw the line somewhere. The option to NOT do a quest is always there. So don't do it if you don't want to.

[Trigger]

It's just a game. You can do evil things and still be a Hero to the community

[Taiwan Number One]

Originally posted by Brandybuck:

Would it be nice if there were more options? Like calling the cops? Organizing a protest? Kidnap that kid and drag him back to Riften? Sure, but you could have fifteen different options for every quest, but the consequences would be many more years developing a game. Every new option to a quest doubles its complexity. You have to draw the line somewhere. The option to NOT do a quest is always there. So don't do it if you don't want to.

15 different options for every quest would take alot of time, but what about just two? Adding some choice to TES would do a world of good especially since it's an RPG.

[The Rock God]

I have no clue how the OP even got to this point in the game. Why didn't you quit in disgust at the very beginning, when you were railroaded into following Ralof? Or after that when you picked whether to follow Ralof or Hadvar into the keep, but were then railroaded into escaping from Helgen? The game is terrible, made by horrible people, and shouldn't be played by anyone.

By the way, optional quests are - wait for it - optional. In fact, every quest after you escape from Helgen is optional. You don't have to do any of them.

[Alembrik]

Originally posted by Trigger:

It's just a game. You can do evil things and still be a Hero to the community

Well, yes. But the problem I have is that Skyrim is suitably immersive that I consider my followers and some other NPCs as ‘friends’. In the game they defend me, I defend them, and I share other experiences with them. (Their AI code may not allow them to reminisce with me, but I remember!) So I won’t do the Boethia quests even if I discover them. I’m not about to sacrifice any follower. Some NPCs may have irritating personalities, but none deserve such a fate.

Even some incidental NPCs — like the Orcs who helped me fight a dragon that landed near one of their strongholds — have my sympathies. In the process of killing the dragon with my broadsword, I accidentally hit an Orc, turning the whole Orc village against me. From there, it was kill or be killed for my character, so I had to fight them all to the death. I actually felt bad about that for a few days, IRL.

I believe the game could — should — have been designed to allow more compassionate quest outcomes. For instance, the guards are eager enough to imprison my character for various crimes, so why isn’t a similar option available for some NPCs who don’t physically attack me? This could apply to the thieves and skooma-smugglers I meet along the road (unless they threaten to kill me from the outset of the encounter), as well as to the old woman in charge of the orphanage. I could fight and subdue them, bind their hands, turn them over to the guards, and collect whatever reward is available. The Jarl could then do with them as the Jarl believes appropriate. In the situation with the Orcs, I would have liked to have had the option to apologise to the leader, pay some sort of compensation to the village (perhaps what I looted from the dragon), and part as friends.

I would like the option not to be evil or gratuitiously violent, and still progress in the game.

[Didz]

Originally posted by Servatis:

you realize you don't have to complete the quest right? So unless you are OCD about your quest log and absolutely have to complete everything then there is no problem.

Yeah! I realise that, which is why I'm cross with myself for allowing myself to be railroaded by the game design.

In fact, if I was brutally honest I shoudn't have allowed myself to be tempted into breaking into the Aventis House in the first place. It wasn't really in keeping with the role I was playing and if I hadn't then none of the rest would never have happened. I was just curious what was inside.

Originally posted by mpd1958:

Let me ask you this, are you the thane of the Jarl of Dawnstar or Falkwreath? Did you do as the jarl asked. Kill a giant or a bandit leader? The Jarl of Falkwreat was in business with the bandits and the jarl of Dawnstar hates giants, so if you did their bidding you are already a murderer. If you do not want to kill the mean old bat then don't to the boy and simply ignor any quests that require murdering someone. That is what I do and I still have fun playing the game.

Nope! at the moment Garik is just a Thane of Whiterun having assisted in the killing of a Dragon that was threatening the city. However, you make a good point in that there is a issue when ordered by a superior to perform a criminal act.

Originally posted by bu_chengshi:

I have no clue how the OP even got to this point in the game. Why didn't you quit in disgust at the very beginning, when you were railroaded into following Ralof? Or after that when you picked whether to follow Ralof or Hadvar into the keep, but were then railroaded into escaping from Helgen? The game is terrible, made by horrible people, and shouldn't be played by anyone.

Actually I didn't cotton on to any of that during the escape from Helgen. I've watched a few video play throughs since and realised that there was this sort of choice option built into the escape but at the time I never even noticed I was just followng my nose and looting everything I could see of value. Staggerred out of the exit tunnel wearing about six sets of armour and carrying a mountain of second hand swords, it was pure chance that I happened to be with Hadvar at the time, in fact I don't even remember seeing Ralof. Not that it actually makes much difference either way as far as I can tell.

Originally posted by SlowedMussel735:

15 different options for every quest would take alot of time, but what about just two? Adding some choice to TES would do a world of good especially since it's an RPG.

Yeah! I wouldn't expect that many options, but the definition of railroading in an RPG is that the GM doesn't allow any alternative to the one he wants the player to chose, even though simple logic would indicate there are logical alternatives.

Likewise, good roleplay design suggests that the game should always allow a range of solutions to cater for each player characters profile and playing style.