Why don't Stormcloaks and Imperials just join forces and take down the Thalmor?

[Trenburger]

Before you ask, yes, I am a strong Stormcloak supporter. However, they both hate the Thalmor and want the same things so why not join together and wipe them out? It's a win win situation: The stormcloaks get talos and many other freedoms back and because the empire is still here, the amount of racism would also decrease. They also have the Dragonborn on their side. If the Dragonborn can defeat Alduin, he/she could easily just wipe out the entire Thalmor army with just his/her fists, so why not just persuade the sides to join forces and wipe out the real enemy? Just something I always wondered. Anyone else think the same?

[Delta 1038]

This thread will soon devolve in another Empire vs Stormcloak squabble as per protocol but anyway,

- They hate each other. Do not underestimate the pettiness of people.
- The Stormcloaks are only fighting one undermanned Legion, not the entire Empire but just one Legion and it's already giving them a hard time.
- The Empire doesn't know what cards the Aldmeri Dominion holds.
- The Aldmeri Dominion and the Empire are pretty much holding a dagger at each other's neck and they're waiting for an excuse to begin cutting. Problem is, the Aldmeri Dominion is better at it.
- The Dragonborn is just one person and he or she can be overwhelmed. Hell, they'll probably just poison you and you can never sleep again.

[Ilja]

The Great War had the whole Empire - including Nords and their current Stormcloak leaders - in battle against the Dominion.

Imperial forces were decimated, until the Battle of Red Ring, where Titus Mede II lead forces to retake Imperial city from Dominon. Both sides had support to continue war, but both had also a lot to loose.

- Imperial forces had lost massive amount of forces. The grand victory in Imperial city invigorated some and they wanted to keep the war going strong. However, their forces were diminished in numbers. Emperor decided to agree with peace.

- Thalmor is not the same thing as Dominion, but the major political and religious force in there. They lost an important battle in the Imperial city and cost a lot of influence and power to them, so they agreed to peace as well.

In short: what you have suggested was already tried. They failed. After the war, Thalmor has grown more powerful, especially in magic, while Imperial forces has been taking losses due Ulfric's treason. If Imperial forces failed to drive Dominion out while being in peak of it's power (again: at the time forces in Skyrim were united and fighting under Emperor's rule), what hope they would have now?

Dragonborn had means to defeat Alduin, but he really is no match against the magical overpower of Dominion, after all influential magic schools and powers in Tamriel have been either destroyed in the war, or crumbling - like the College of Winterhold.

[Trenburger]

Originally posted by Ilja:

The Great War had the whole Empire - including Nords and their current Stormcloak leaders - in battle against the Dominion.

Imperial forces were decimated, until the Battle of Red Ring, where Titus Mede II lead forces to retake Imperial city from Dominon. Both sides had support to continue war, but both had also a lot to loose.

- Imperial forces had lost massive amount of forces. The grand victory in Imperial city invigorated some and they wanted to keep the war going strong. However, their forces were diminished in numbers. Emperor decided to agree with peace.

- Thalmor is not the same thing as Dominion, but the major political and religious force in there. They lost an important battle in the Imperial city and cost a lot of influence and power to them, so they agreed to peace as well.

In short: what you have suggested was already tried. They failed. After the war, Thalmor has grown more powerful, especially in magic, while Imperial forces has been taking losses due Ulfric's treason. If Imperial forces failed to drive Dominion out while being in peak of it's power (again: at the time forces in Skyrim were united and fighting under Emperor's rule), what hope they would have now?

Dragonborn had means to defeat Alduin, but he really is no match against the magical overpower of Dominion, after all influential magic schools and powers in Tamriel have been either destroyed in the war, or crumbling - like the College of Winterhold.

I already know the entire Skyrim lore. I just can't imagine the Dragonborn losing to a bunch of ♥♥♥♥♥ elves after defeating the World Eater. He has the strength of a god, so what's stopping him from helping the Stormcloaks and Imperials take down the Dominion? Kodlak and Skjor defeated 101 orc berserkers by themselves, Ysgramor and his 500 companions defeated all the elves despite the fact the number of elves heavily outnumbered them, and Tiber Septim defeated countless armies and united all of Tamriel. The dragonborn is probably just as strong as Tiber Septim, if not stronger, so what's stopping him from helping take back Skyrim from the Thalmor? (craft enchanted armor to resist 100% magic = win against entire thalmor army hehehe)

[Delta 1038]

Originally posted by KrazyPotato:

I just can't imagine the Dragonborn losing to a bunch of ♥♥♥♥♥ elves after defeating the World Eater. He has the strength of a god, so what's stopping him from helping the Stormcloaks and Imperials take down the Dominion? Kodlak and Skjor defeated 101 orc berserkers by themselves, Ysgramor and his 500 companions defeated all the elves despite the fact the number of elves heavily outnumbered them, and Tiber Septim defeated countless armies and united all of Tamriel. The dragonborn is probably just as strong as Tiber Septim, if not stronger, so what's stopping him from helping take back Skyrim from the Thalmor? (craft enchanted armor to resist 100% magic = win against entire thalmor army hehehe)

Also don't forget that Alduin is just one dragon. The Aldmeri Dominion have an army; it's just simple logistics. The Dragonborn cannot be in two places at once.

[Trenburger]

Originally posted by Delta 1038:

Originally posted by KrazyPotato:

I just can't imagine the Dragonborn losing to a bunch of ♥♥♥♥♥ elves after defeating the World Eater. He has the strength of a god, so what's stopping him from helping the Stormcloaks and Imperials take down the Dominion? Kodlak and Skjor defeated 101 orc berserkers by themselves, Ysgramor and his 500 companions defeated all the elves despite the fact the number of elves heavily outnumbered them, and Tiber Septim defeated countless armies and united all of Tamriel. The dragonborn is probably just as strong as Tiber Septim, if not stronger, so what's stopping him from helping take back Skyrim from the Thalmor? (craft enchanted armor to resist 100% magic = win against entire thalmor army hehehe)

Also don't forget that Alduin is just one dragon. The Aldmeri Dominion have an army; it's just simple logistics. The Dragonborn cannot be in two places at once.

That is true, but Alduin is powerful to take down an entire army, and even the world itself, so dosen't that mean the Dragonborn is powerful enough to do those htings too? Kinda does make me wonder though, how will Tamriel ever be free from the Thalmor?

[AquilliusRanger]

If only the Ebonheart Pact/Daggerfall Covenant was reforged at this era instead. (Would've been nicer if the Argonian Invasion is gonna tackle up on the Aldmeri and bring it to the ground the next Elder Scroll)

[Ilja]

Originally posted by KrazyPotato:

That is true, but Alduin is powerful to take down an entire army, and even the world itself, so dosen't that mean the Dragonborn is powerful enough to do those htings too? Kinda does make me wonder though, how will Tamriel ever be free from the Thalmor?

I do not see how Dragonborn's ability to slay Alduin is any way comparable to fighting against Dominion. Dragonborns ability to devour dragon souls and slay Alduin was gift from Akatosh. This does not include ability to devour elfs and Khajiit.

And Dragonborn was not strong enough to take Alduin down alone. He/she had 3 helpers, who could not perish during the combat. Most idiots with adequate dexterity will win with those odds. For Dragonborn, it only takes to run fast, shoot some arrows and hide again to kill Alduin. (In vanilla form, this was probably the most anticlimatic boss battle in the history of PCRPGs.,,)

This tactic would likely be inefective against a horde of elven mages, each following Dragonborn's moves individually, and tossing their spells and summons against him/her.

[Hamsterbytes , bits and nibbles]

Wheel of time's dragonborn was the most powerful person alive, but he too needed help of others to win against a darker power. He could not have done it by himself.

[grishalit7]

Originally posted by Ilja:

The Great War had the whole Empire - including Nords and their current Stormcloak leaders - in battle against the Dominion.

Imperial forces were decimated, until the Battle of Red Ring, where Titus Mede II lead forces to retake Imperial city from Dominon. Both sides had support to continue war, but both had also a lot to loose.

- Imperial forces had lost massive amount of forces. The grand victory in Imperial city invigorated some and they wanted to keep the war going strong. However, their forces were diminished in numbers. Emperor decided to agree with peace.

- Thalmor is not the same thing as Dominion, but the major political and religious force in there. They lost an important battle in the Imperial city and cost a lot of influence and power to them, so they agreed to peace as well.

In short: what you have suggested was already tried. They failed. After the war, Thalmor has grown more powerful, especially in magic, while Imperial forces has been taking losses due Ulfric's treason. If Imperial forces failed to drive Dominion out while being in peak of it's power (again: at the time forces in Skyrim were united and fighting under Emperor's rule), what hope they would have now?

Dragonborn had means to defeat Alduin, but he really is no match against the magical overpower of Dominion, after all influential magic schools and powers in Tamriel have been either destroyed in the war, or crumbling - like the College of Winterhold.

In the end of Skyrim's main questline it is hinted(shown) that the dragons who survived up to Alduin's death will now follow Parthunax(spelled right?). So what if 20 or so dragons(lvl 30 in avrege) lead by Par join the winning faction(Imperials if canon) and the Dragonborn(written in history but not shown praticulary like the Great War is in Skyrim) to fight the Aldemeri Dominion? Do they have a chance of winning(fingers crossed to see the battle in TES 6 begining) the battle?

[Ilja]

Paarthurnax especially mentioned that he would start to teach the Way of the Voice for dragons.

If Paarthurnax remains true to the Way, then they are not going to take any part in any war, seeing that the Way prohibits them to do so.

"Due to the rarity of times of "True Need" and the nonviolent lifestyles of the Greybeard monks (the most famous practitioners of the Way of the Voice), the philosophy is generally viewed to be one of pacifism. Actually, the Way of the Voice teaches that using the thu'um for battle is merely "the least of its uses".
---
What constitutes "True Need" may be the subject of debate, but it certainly does not include wars of conquest (and may not even encompass a single individual's survival)."

Lore:Way of the Voice UESPWiki
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Way_of_the_Voice

[Shuruia]

Not to spark another Empire vs Stormcloak thread, but Ulfric is a known Thalmor sleeper agent whether he likes it or not. If you took Elenwen out of the equation, I'm sure the Empire (or at least the Fourth Legion) and the Stormcloak Army would come to terms against the Aldmeri Dominion otherwise.

Some dialogue lines by General Tullius hints that he knew how and why the civil war's origins played out all along. It's too seeped in hatred and Elenwen's mind games on Ulfric.

[Bomb Bloke]

Ulfric's less a sleeper agent and more a puppet. He wouldn't accept direct orders from the Thalmor.

Tullius indeed doesn't want to fight the war (knowing, for starters, that it only helps the Thalmor), but Ulfric is forcing his hand. Ulfric is either too stupid to know what's going on, or too narcissistic to care. I'm thinking it's the latter.

Just throwing it out there, but I sorta feel the Dragonborn wouldn't be anywhere near as powerful as Tiber Septim was. I say this because every TES hero ends up progressively weaker than the last. The Champion of Cyrodiil - the hero in Oblivion - could become immune to pretty much everything except arrows, though you don't need to worry about them too much when you've got a 50ft blast radius on your spells. He ended up achieving godhood. The Nerevarine - the hero in Morrowind - could bring his skill/stat caps hundreds of thousands of times - if not millions, or more - up past their intended caps. For example, a simple levitate spell could be turned into a "fly across the entire world in a second" spell. He probably considered godhood beneath him.

[Shuruia]

Originally posted by Bomb Bloke:

Ulfric's less a sleeper agent and more a puppet. He wouldn't accept direct orders from the Thalmor.

It's true that Ulfric would never directly receive orders from the Thalmor, but one of the perks about sleeper agents is that they don't have to be willing subjects.

[76561198119391273]

To be honest, the only reason why things are the way they are is because the plot DEMANDS IT!!

[Trenburger]

Originally posted by Bomb Bloke:

Ulfric's less a sleeper agent and more a puppet. He wouldn't accept direct orders from the Thalmor.

Tullius indeed doesn't want to fight the war (knowing, for starters, that it only helps the Thalmor), but Ulfric is forcing his hand. Ulfric is either too stupid to know what's going on, or too narcissistic to care. I'm thinking it's the latter.

Just throwing it out there, but I sorta feel the Dragonborn wouldn't be anywhere near as powerful as Tiber Septim was. I say this because every TES hero ends up progressively weaker than the last. The Champion of Cyrodiil - the hero in Oblivion - could become immune to pretty much everything except arrows, though you don't need to worry about them too much when you've got a 50ft blast radius on your spells. He ended up achieving godhood. The Nerevarine - the hero in Morrowind - could bring his skill/stat caps hundreds of thousands of times - if not millions, or more - up past their intended caps. For example, a simple levitate spell could be turned into a "fly across the entire world in a second" spell. He probably considered godhood beneath him.

Ulfric isn't exactly stupid. He's just incredibly arrogant like 99% of all the other nords. The empire surrendered because they could face destruction from the thalmor but ulfric and the stormcloaks viewed this as a betrayal and a cowardly move. Nords usually don't know what surrendering means and just fight until they die XD.
Progressively weaker? I'm pretty sure the Dragonborn is stronger that all of the past protagonists combined (I have played morrowind and oblivion, but not the others). He has around 20 different shouts, and can be completely invincible, even without the use of bugs. For example, crafting potions and enchantments for resist magic, with the help of a specific black book for 10% stronger enchanting, we can reach over 100% magic resistace, making him completely immune to magic. Put that together with 567 max armor and you are basicly unstoppable. Just spamming the illusion spell harmony will easily lvl you up every few seconds and with the ability to turn skills legendary after reaching 100, you can lvl up as many times as you want and raise your health to insane numbers. (don't do that though, game becomes incredibly boring, even on legendary difficulty XD)