Windhelm

[Sacra Nth]

Right, I'm here to complain about a framerate issue at Windhelm. Now before any idiot comes along and says "GET A BETTER GC", I'll tell you that every other part of Skyrim runs perfectly fine on a 660 ti. I can easily run the game on 30 fps no problem, but when I go to the Windhelm docks or try to manually enter Windhelm, my framerate drops to around 5 fps and my game usually crashes after a while. Can someone tell me why? Neither the docks nor the bridge are particularly cluttered.

Note: I have currently no mods affecting Windhelm.

[BlacKy #SlavaIsraelini]

Actually, windhelm dock is a place known for fps drops..
Try this, perhasp.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37xAMUQc1oY

[Bomb Bloke]

What's making you so certain none of your mods are related to this matter?

Sounds like a run-away script. I'd enable papyrus logging[www.creationkit.com] and check to see if the logs go haywire whenever you approach those areas (make sure you play a bit without going there first, so you've got an idea what sort of messages get logged when things are "normal"). If so, the messages will likely give you some idea as to why (eg, a frequently recurring mod, or even quest, name).

[Nazenn]

No it doesnt sound like a run away script. It sounds like skyrim being problematic like always and a fps drop that is well known in that area, especially when already running at under 60 fps.
Suggesting that low performance is script based can be incredibly dangerous, and suggesting that people look to their papyrus log is almost always near useless. The log is a mess of data, and just because a message repeats it doesnt mean that message is indicating a problem. In fact a good majority of errors that papyrus throws off are just papyrus problems, and not actual errors that will impact your game. Looking for script problems should always be done AFTER everything else, not first, and should always start with a script latency test, rather then looking at the log.

If you would like more help in this matter OP, please provide your entire mods list in its load order, your full computer specs and also see if there is any other areas where this problem occurs.

[Noble Ten]

Maybe try turning down graphic settings ?

[Sacra Nth]

Originally posted by Bomb Bloke:

What's making you so certain none of your mods are related to this matter?

Sounds like a run-away script. I'd enable papyrus logging[www.creationkit.com] and check to see if the logs go haywire whenever you approach those areas (make sure you play a bit without going there first, so you've got an idea what sort of messages get logged when things are "normal"). If so, the messages will likely give you some idea as to why (eg, a frequently recurring mod, or even quest, name).

Because I had this problem before I started modding my game.

[Sacra Nth]

Thanks all for the quick and helpful answers.

[Bomb Bloke]

Originally posted by Nazenn:

No it doesnt sound like a run away script. It sounds like skyrim being problematic like always and a fps drop that is well known in that area, especially when already running at under 60 fps.

A drop to single digits, followed up by a crash?

Originally posted by Nazenn:

Suggesting that low performance is script based can be incredibly dangerous,

Dangerous how?

Originally posted by Nazenn:

The log is a mess of data, and just because a message repeats it doesnt mean that message is indicating a problem. In fact a good majority of errors that papyrus throws off are just papyrus problems, and not actual errors that will impact your game.

... unless they're only showing up when the game is having "issues". It's trivial to compare two logs to see the difference between "normal" behaviour, and "FPS-going-down-whoops-the-whole-game-crashed" behaviour.

Originally posted by Nazenn:

Looking for script problems should always be done AFTER everything else, not first, and should always start with a script latency test, rather then looking at the log.

Last - after what? Re-ordering or disabling mods, a process which can potentially break the game worse? We're talking about reading a couple of text files here - while it certainly may not reveal the problem, it's one of the few troubleshooting steps that's quick to perform and doesn't carry a risk to it.

I don't see why one shouldn't investigate a problem before digging in and making changes.

[Nazenn]

My appologies, reading my own post back again I was incredibly unclear in a way that I shouldnt have been and hope I didn't cause any confusion. For clarification, if possible:

A drop to a single digit followed by a crash can also be memory problems, rendering problems, or general instability, as well as just having a way too busy area happening. Ive had this happen in a game once and it certainly wasnt papyrus caused, in my case it was caused by having problems with the rendering of a particular area compounded by it having a lot of npcs which lead to a memory burnout.

I meant that guessing it can be a papyrus problem above others can be dangerous if that information is then acted upon before looking at anything else which can then destabilse a save game, papyrus being the most unstable part of the skyrim engine, which is really saying something.

Yes a comparison certainly can help when it comes to papyrus logs, I had misread that though so I appologise again. It is a pain though if papyrus is being grumpy about certain things, and Id still start with a script latency test which will show script based crashes as well through giving a number to show how badly papyrus might be running. Your description of "FPS-going-down-whoops-the-whole-game-crashed" was perfect though XD

[Bomb Bloke]

I tend to lean away from any suggestion that CTDs caused by visiting a specific area relate to lack of RAM or video power, speaking as one who first played through Skyrim on a system that didn't meet the requirements for Oblivion and had to run both titles with minimal graphical settings (and frame rates). I've now got a machine that runs them with everything on ultra, and my stability is the same. That's not to say that the game's memory management isn't notoriously bad, of course - it just tends to fail at random, as opposed to every time you go to a specific spot.

Is there any particular tool you'd recommend for the script latency test?

Wolves_Bones, the information Nazenn asked for is indeed likely to be useful.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I usually have a problem when I am near the Whiterun Stables and by the Inn in Whiterun. I don't think I have had any trouble in Windhelm before.

[Nazenn]

Conveniant Horses comes with a built in script latency tester that you can enable via the MCM which Ive found to be very reliable, and also provides information on what your latency should be below for optimal performance (50ms) and what it needs to be below for a stable system (100ms). For comparison for optimal working of the papyrus system, I believe that frostfall requires it to be below 20ms. On average with some fairly heavy scripted mods in my game I usually sit around 40ms.

There has also recently been a new mod added to the Jaxonz mod set called Jaxonz Diagnostics. I havent personally had a chance to test it myself, but all of Jaxonz mods are INCREDIBLY well made so I would be surprised if this was an exception to that rule and I know that also comes with script diagnostic tools as well so that might come in handy. It also has several other tools that can be used to supposedly test ini settings in game which might also come in handy.

From my personal experiance (which I fully admit can be flawed given I havent actually gone out and tested this specifically yet) you usually see that sort of memory crash, with memory running out on a slow cycle like that, generally around areas with heavy particles or npc movement in areas with lots of meshes and textures displaying at once. Often because of the constant change in rendering shadows onto different surfaces (solitude docks has this problem sometimes on very low systems because of there being a merge of 3 types of enviroments in rendering distance), and/or also new meshes with texture details on them constantly being spawned in, especially in areas like the rift or in snowy areas because of the size of the particle textures ( a 512 texture in the vanilla game for a snow particle on screen the size of a thumbnail is beyond stupid ). This generally presents as just a frame drop for most people, but it can cause that sort of crash if you spawn directly in that area which cripples the memory and rendering systems (I might have found this out the hard way a few times haha).
If the OP is only getting 30 fps then I could imagine this effect may be compounded by the engine not being able to maintain so many rendering calculations at such a slow framerate while it tries to catch up. I definitely see this sort of thing happening more often in Whiterun or Falkreath with other people, Windhelm is personally a first but eh, Skyrim likes throwing curveballs out for stuff like this