Is it just me or does it seem like Elder Scrolls protagonists end up making things worst by the next game?

[RequiemsRose]

Most who play Elder Scrolls games seem to do so from Morrowind onward so I'll focus there but I've noticed a trend across the games. Obviously, when you play through these games you are the hero. Sure you start from nothing, but ultimately you are the hero who supposedly saves everyone...until you get into the next game in the series and start hearing about what happened AFTER your previous heroics.

(Attempting to avoid spoilers, but I mean, these are old games and plot is an important aspect of this idea). In Morrowind, your antics took you to Red Mountain at the end, by Oblivion you find out Morrowind is in a civil war, by Skyrim you find out the Red Mountain exploded and chased a lot of inhabitants out or killed them and if you have played the story, that might just be because of your Morrowind characters actions at Red Mountain (which is part of why you end up with heartstones in Solsthiem).

Then we move on to Oblivion. You're now the hero of Kvatch and you end up stopping the Oblivion Crisis, that can't really be that bad right? The gates weren't just in Cyrodil afterall, but beating the game ended the crisis, so you saved the world right? Not exactly. The world, maybe...but we do hear that Black Marsh at least was actually doing pretty well at closing the gates themselves. Morrowind struggled because of their little civil war problem, but overall it seemed that most handled it fairly well. Either way, as it turns out, the part where the last rightful Imperial king had to die to end the crisis didn't turn out so well for the Imperials and now by Skyrim we have a lovely civil war to deal with and the Imperials are little more than lapdogs without the Septims.

I'm excited for the next ES game, but also deeply curious how our Dragonborn managed to mess things up with their good intentions and heroism by then.

[Kalona The Drunk Native]

RequiemsRose の投稿を引用：

Kalona The Ravenant の投稿を引用：

Best part is: The Nerevarine is immortal, so He/She could also be the HOK & Dovakin at the same time. Even better, the Nevevarine could become a Greyfox, so no one would would be able to piece anything together. It's just as well, too, because I'm assuming the Dunmer would be pretty mad at Nerevarine for likely triggering Redmountain's eruption.

oooh that brings up an interesting "what if...?" scenario. If Nerevarine does happen to be HoK, and completed the Shivering Isles...how would that work exactly? There's already theories about KoH as Sheogorath and whether they are actually still themselves or essentially got overwritten by Sheogorath's personality (Skyrim's Sheogorath is distinct from Oblivion's yet still seems to retain the memories of the presumably original Sheogorath like specific details about Pelagius, so a common theory is that when KoH became Sheogorath, it was more literal than intended, as a vessel not a stand-in). If KoH was the Nerevarine, already a sort of pseudo god, would a deadra still overwrite them? maybe merge? Although that would also make it difficult for the Nerevarine + KoH combo to effectively be the dragonborn (then again the madgod talking to himself, doesn't seem too far-fetched either..but deadra are limited in the ways they can normally interact with Nirn and it's inhabitants directly).

At any rate, Nerevarine can just wear Nocturne's coal again, then people forget whom Sheogorath is besides being a known deity. Nevevarine & Sheogorath would only be remembered idolly... that doesn't mean Akatosh forgets His Dovakin, though.

[alexander_dougherty]

Kalona The Ravenant の投稿を引用：

RequiemsRose の投稿を引用：

That's part of why I like it. You are the hero, you do fix whatever problem happens to be the main focus of the game, but it's never "happily ever after" for doing so. It's just the best available option you see. If we were to remove the constraints of the game plotline, the best the hero of kvatch could have done is help Martin relight the fires BEFORE Mehrunes came through, thereby stopping the invasion and not requiring Martin's sacrifice...but with the plotline you didn't get to do that in time despite all your efforts. You did the best you could, and ultimately it is better than doing nothing, but you aren't perfect even if you are the hero. Your actions, however good your intentions were, do shape the world for better or worse, usually a bit of both.

Best part is: The Nerevarine is immortal, so He/She could also be the HOK & the Dovakin

No the Nevarine can't be the Hero in Oblivion game, if you do the Fighter's guild, you can get the Helm of Oreyn Bearclaw, and you are told the Nevarine gave it to the Fighter's Guild.... And the person giving was the one who received it off the Nevarine.... Ergo the Hero in Morrowind and the Hero in Oblivion are two separate people.

Next the Nevarine is an Avatar of Lorkhan/Shor, an Aspect of Lorkhan's spirit/Soul. While the Dragonborn has the Soul of a Dragon, the Dragons are created out of Shards of Akatosh's/Auriel's soul.... You can't be created from Lorkhan and Akatosh both, so you can't be Nevarine and Dovakin....

You could be the Hero from Oblivion and the Dovakin, provided you are from a race that lives longer than two hundred years... Which would be an Elven Race,

[RequiemsRose]

alexander_dougherty の投稿を引用：

...you could be the Hero from Oblivion and the Dovakin, provided you are from a race that lives longer than two hundred years... Which would be an Elven Race,

Or if you did become a cyrodilic vampire in Oblivion, though if that was the case you'd likely be starting Skyrim with sunken cheeks and blood red eyes, although that can be harder to notice on beastfolk.
Then again, Oblivion and Skyrim at least have the Akatosh link between the two. It's technically Akatosh that stopped the Oblivion crisis (though Martin's sacrifice was required to make the Akatosh avatar that did so), and Akatosh is also the father of dragons, and the reason for dragonborns...so you could even theorize that maybe Akatosh helped KoH remain alive (or jump through time perhaps) since KoH already proved themselves a capable hero (and not all dragonborns actually know they are dragonborns, so KoH could have been without realizing since they never encountered a dragon to absorb the soul of).

Admittedly, I don't think any of the main protagonists are the same individual but it is fun to theorize and think of "what if...?" If any Elder Scrolls protagonist came back for another shot, I think it might be The Agent (the hero of Daggerfall, the second game) but that is mostly because that game resulted in "The Warp in the West" functionally a time/space anomaly that may have altered some things (Morrowind also featured some time/space warping, but I don't think Nerevarine would be as affected by the effects of what is sort of their heart). Even that isn't likely, and if that did happen then The Agent likely couldn't be KoH at the very least or they'd have had strong knowledge of the Septims, the blades, and a few other things our KoH seemed to be unaware of...well, barring the potential of some time warp amnesia.

[RequiemsRose]

Oh, speaking of a character not possessing knowledge they should if they were someone else, I don't think Nerevarine was the Dragonorn either, there's no acknowledgement that you even have an idea who Jiub is if you meet them in the Soul Cairn...I feel like the Nerevarine would remember the first friendly face they encountered when arriving in Morrowind...

[Melkolf]

RequiemsRose の投稿を引用：

Oh, speaking of a character not possessing knowledge they should if they were someone else, I don't think Nerevarine was the Dragonorn either, there's no acknowledgement that you even have an idea who Jiub is if you meet them in the Soul Cairn...I feel like the Nerevarine would remember the first friendly face they encountered when arriving in Morrowind...

Can't remember his face though it's been seen so many times. And so many faces have changed over the years. But that voice, oh yes, that voice is unforgettable...

It's all open your eyes lucid dreaming I guess.

[Lobo de hielo]

Wow. Skyrim thread but seems to be more Morrowind.
So.
Morrowind or any "Hero" who does not remember who they really are.
Why would you remember anything?

You start off not knowing who you are. It is only when Daguth Ur starts putting dreams in your head, sleepers start talking to you and you find out the "Emperor" believes you fit the prophecies that you start to believe in yourself.
Even the first Ashlander quest says you may be but maybe not.
Do you want to be?

People who believe themselves to be reincarnated have to go through some very serious hypntherapy and research.
The memories are hidden away.

I am of the age now (and yes, strange but I believe in reincarnation even though an atheist) when every few years something will happen that triggers a memory from 50+ years ago. Is it a true memory/ representation of what happened or has it been altered by all the different experiences I have been through?

Why should you be reincarnated as the person you once were?
Surely the whole point is to come back stronger, more moral and wanting to have a better life/ put things right that you did wrong in the last life.

You have to start off weak and in a way where you have to fight the moment you first draw breath. That is the way it should be. Being reincarnated should not be easy.

So maybe you could be the "hero" in all the Elder Scrolls.

[alexander_dougherty]

slayor3000 の投稿を引用：

People who believe themselves to be reincarnated have to go through some very serious hypntherapy and research.
The memories are hidden away.

Except they usually believe they are the reincarnation of someone famous, very few believe they are just farmers or shoemakers reincarnated.... I remember once someone counted all the reborn Julius Caesar's, Cleopatra's, Nelsons' etc and figured Caesar was an army on his own.... no need for any Legionnaires....

I'm not dismissing the possibility of reincarnation, but I am taking that possibility with a huge dose of scepticism...... maybe two....

[Lobo de hielo]

Scepticism you need in everything you are ever told.
Reincarnation like so many other things in life are hard to scientifically prove.
But I am not talking about all the ones who believe they were someone famous. That is normally a case of delusion.
But studies carried out on children who actually even as early as 2 years old have memories of being a pilot or a movie extra, someone "average".
A girl in India that at 2 was speaking a strange language and after studies they found it to have been an old form of Egyptian or language similar (I would need to refind all the research data).
A boy in France who remembered being killed by soldiers and all he had been was a farmer. They found a village he talked about and some records which could loosely connect it.
So many things that you can take with a "pinch of salt", but when I start seeing studies carried out by top Universities and scientists of renown, I start to take a little more notice.

[alexander_dougherty]

slayor3000 の投稿を引用：

Scepticism you need in everything you are ever told.
Reincarnation like so many other things in life are hard to scientifically prove.
But I am not talking about all the ones who believe they were someone famous. That is normally a case of delusion.
But studies carried out on children who actually even as early as 2 years old have memories of being a pilot or a movie extra, someone "average".
A girl in India that at 2 was speaking a strange language and after studies they found it to have been an old form of Egyptian or language similar (I would need to refind all the research data).
A boy in France who remembered being killed by soldiers and all he had been was a farmer. They found a village he talked about and some records which could loosely connect it.
So many things that you can take with a "pinch of salt", but when I start seeing studies carried out by top Universities and scientists of renown, I start to take a little more notice.

I have read about those studies..... unfortunately I have also read about a study where they told a group of four year olds a story about the teacher having once trapped her hand in a mouse trap. After a few weeks they had all convinced themselves that it was them who had gotten stuck in a mousetrap, and they had created false memories, nobody could convince them they hadn't trapped their fingers in a mousetrap.... Which highlights how malleable young minds are.

I have also read about studies that find similar malleability in the minds of some adults, especially under Hypnosis...

The language aspect is interesting, except sometimes experts find evidence that isn't there, especially languages if they aren't language experts themselves.

[Melkolf]

Wow, a Morrowind thread on a Skyrim board that's now hijacked into reincarnation studies.

It's highly unlikely reincarnation exists because the arithmetic and maths simply don't add up.

Buddha understood this and created the airport style Limboland of Bardo for the excess souls to float around in whilst awaiting their next flight. The one true godders stole that idea for purgatory as the soul storage system. It's a bit like universities being storage systems for the unemployed/unemployable. Uni's are also purgatory to a lot of people.

Ancient Greeks had the far better idea with their concept of Hades.

As for the one true hero of various Tamriel eras - like reincarnation etc believe what you want to believe. It's only a game and games should be played - unlike real life and death which is no game although many believe it to be only that.

Having played all TES games I am convinced the PC in each is different and unconnected. To think otherwise is be weighed down with so many contradictions and paradoxes the games no longer become games, just a pile of nonsense and mental masturbation.

[RequiemsRose]

Mostly it was a lore debate, so in that sense it's still on topic. Course it started with lore from morrowind to skyrim, but there also isn't conveniently a general "elder scrolls series" forum which would be better suited to discussing lore across multiple games in the series.

I still am genuinely curious what will have gone haywire by the next installment. Hard to imagine that saving the world from a world-eater would ultimately end badly but...it was also hard to imagine that stopping a demon invasion would end badly either. Then again, even if stopping the dragons didn't result in trouble, chances are the imperial king dies canonically. Yes you can help imperials in the civil war questline, but the stormcloak and dark brotherhood lines both result in his death and even if he wins, the thalmor probably seal that deal.
For all I know, Paarthurnax isn't as good natured as he seems and he leads the remaining dragons into another dragon age, ultimately making the blades plan correct. I doubt it, since he is kill-able, so it's hard to make a canon lore about a character's continued existance when there's also a canon storyline about killing them if you choose to pursue it. Usually if you get to decide a characters fate, we don't see that character again since they can't set your choice in stone so to speak, others may have chosen differently. In cases like the imperial king you might get away with it, but you'd still have to make it a "regardless of your choices, they still die" scenario.

[Melkolf]

RR, why must the next instalment be later? Why not a prequel? really go back in time to the early lore, the early invasions, when parts of the world still existed and races never died out? How about actual dwemer living in their hallowed halls? The first race of dragons? The Ayelids running rampant?

All I know is the next instalment will be full of bugs etc as I said before, and modders and the community will have to knock it, and the lore, into shape once again.

Sorry to be so despondent but my experience of Beth games has led me over the years to such depths of despair that I'm now schizo...

This one thinks Khajiit should be centre stage for once, instead of being classed as thieves and wastrels all the time. This one comes from a noble heritage and race and demands spouses of his own race to marry, and unarmed combat to reign supreme...

[󰀉tempeh󰀉]

Actually, that gives me an idea...

Maybe the Dwarves turned into bugs, and they've been there with us all along? Nchurdak-Items-Sell-For-More-Money-When-You-Have-Low-Mercantile can be found in Morrowind, along with his rival Bthamz-Blind-Increases-Chance-To-Hit. And in Skyrim, an entire noble family from the Rourken clan has taken up residence in the Blood On The Ice quest.

[alexander_dougherty]

󰀉tempeh󰀉 の投稿を引用：

Actually, that gives me an idea...

Maybe the Dwarves turned into bugs, and they've been there with us all along? Nchurdak-Items-Sell-For-More-Money-When-You-Have-Low-Mercantile can be found in Morrowind, along with his rival Bthamz-Blind-Increases-Chance-To-Hit. And in Skyrim, an entire noble family from the Rourken clan has taken up residence in the Blood On The Ice quest.

Makes as much sense as any other theory out there.

[McJiggy]

If the Neravarine never stopped Dagoth Ur then all life on Tamriel would've become flesh abominations long before the events of Skyrim.