If Torygg refused to duel Ulfric, would he still go to Sovngarde?

[TheLemmaLlama]

Someone said that Ulfric basically forced Torygg into a "die now or don't go to Heaven" situation, so I was wondering ... Try not to start debating about the Civil War in general, it rarely ends well :P

[76561198133591931]

Yes. If Torygg had refused Ulfric's challenge he would have lost the High Kingship and been refused a place in Sovngarde. By refusing he would have showed cowardice. And therefor been barred from "heaven".

But to be fair, by challenging High King Torygg to a duel under the dueling terms he did, Ulfric also barred himself from Sovngarde. For dishonor and cowardice. A duel isn't really a duel if one of the parties has no chance of dying. And under the terms of the duel, Ulfric had no chance at all dying. Therefor he also exhibited both dishonor and cowardice. Thereby denying himself Sovngarde.

[Bomb Bloke]

Originally posted by darkknight4321234:

But to be fair, by challenging High King Torygg to a duel under the dueling terms he did, Ulfric also barred himself from Sovngarde.

Apparently not:

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Ulfric_Stormcloak#Sovngarde

And yes, you can find Torygg there too:

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:High_King_Torygg

[TheLemmaLlama]

Yeah, Ulfric makes it to Sovngarde despite the duel. Torygg accepted the challenge so obviously he's there too, but I'm wondering if refusing that one duel would really bar him from Sovngarde forever regardless of what he does after, seeing as Ulfric got there ...

[Taiwan Number One]

From my understanding, any Nord who dies bravely in combat goes to Sovngarde.

[TheLemmaLlama]

So it's how you die rather than how you live? o_O

[⚔ 𝖉𝖗𝖆𝖛𝖊𝖓 ⚔]

Originally posted by crapshoot:

So it's how you die rather than how you live? o_O

Yes. It's about honoring the tradition.

[TheLemmaLlama]

So that means if Torygg refused to duel, then dies bravely in battle later, he gets to go to Sovngarde? :D

[Solomon Hawk]

If it had been a "fair fight". But no, it was not a fair fight since Ulfric used the Thu'um on Torygg.
So, how Ulfric got into Sovngard is beyond baffling.
Torygg didn't have a chance although he did accept the challenge.
He had not foreseen that Ulfric would use the Thu'um.
Could he have refused? Yes. But he accepted the challenge in good faith.

[TheLemmaLlama]

Exactly, so if Ulfric made it to Sovngarde, it seems to suggest one dishonourable action by itself won't bar you from Sovngarde ... so if Torygg refused to duel, he can still makes it Sovngarde c:

[Bomb Bloke]

One could argue that there was no dishonour in using the voice, and those saying otherwise are merely sore losers.

You have the option of using it most any time, and no one complains about that.

[Dariken]

So where do people who don't make it to Sovngarde go?

[Trehek]

Originally posted by Dariken:

So where do people who don't make it to Sovngarde go?

To various places, apparently, many of which haven't been introduced in the series. We know that each daedric lord has ways of claiming souls to their realms of Oblivion, and souls consumed by soul gems end up in the Soul Cairn.

[TheLemmaLlama]

So either one dishonourable action could be excused or that fact that Ulfric made it to Sovngarde proves the use of a shout in that duel wasn't dishonerable? D:

[Valden21]

Well, the problem to me, is that the challenge was made "in the old traditions", according to the UESP entry on Toryyg. We're not really told what that phrase means. It could very well be that duels fought that way don't really have any rules about the Thu'um, or they could require the combatants to use everything at their disposal.