Opinion: The Empire is more evil than the rebels ever will be.

[RyD]

I know for a fact I'm going to catch a lot of heat, but I don't care.

The Empire as we all know is basically seen as the true ruler's of Skyrim, at least from the majority of players that I've encountered. But are they really that good?

Last I saw, Countess Alessia Caro of Leyawiin in Oblivion hated all things Dunmer, Argonian, and Kahjiit. And last I saw, Ulfric get's replaced by none other than Rolff Stone-fist, the very racist that hates the Dunmer, and that we see harassing one as soon as you enter the city. And last I saw, Laila Law-giver gets replaced by Maven Black-Briar, who as we know is a crime lord.

If the empire is really as good as they say, then why do they allow these people in power, huh? I'd much sooner kill Maven then let her on Riften's throne, and I'd much sooner keep Ulfric in power, and side with him, then let a true racist on Windhelm's throne.

The message here is: take a look at yourself, and the people you support, before making a conclusion about someone else.

[GrimCat]

Ulfric is not replaced by Stone-fist. He's replaced by Brunwulf Free-Winter.
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Brunwulf_Free-Winter

[Saint of Circumstance]

Originally posted by Grim Dolo:

Ulfric is not replaced by Stone-fist. He's replaced by Brunwulf Free-Winter.
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Brunwulf_Free-Winter

who is very pro dunmer in a city full of racist nords

[Jackkel Dragon]

I think the reason people tend to side with the Empire is because it's at least making an attempt to be welcoming and cosmopolitan. The Stormcloaks use nationalism and religion as an excuse to attempt borderline genocide. Meanwhile, the Empire admits that Tiber Septim was a conquering warlord that used a superweapon to bend people to his will, and tries to make up for that. (Though deifying him as Talos in the official state religion does make things a bit awkward for non-Nords, which is why that was changed when the Aldmeri Dominion defeated the Empire.)

As for the specific examples of bad Imperial leaders, keep in mind that the Empire as of Skyrim (the game) is a weak, corrupt government that threw people like Tellius (who dislikes Nord customs) at Skyrim to try to fix it. The people who become jarls in Imperial Skyrim are those who supported the war effort, not people who embody moral virtues. Thus the crime lord whose business is best suited to a united Empire is going to take charge in Imperial Riften, because she's the next most powerful person in town after the Stormcloak jarl.

(It doesn't help in the metagame that documents in the main quest suggest that the nationalistic, theocratic Aldmeri Dominion is using the Stormcloak rebellion as a way to weaken reality and thus destroy the universe. Makes things a bit awkward, since my stuff is in the universe.)

Edit: I can't believe I missed this bit:

The message here is: take a look at yourself, and the people you support, before making a conclusion about someone else.

I could really say the same to you. The entire point of the Civil War questline in Skyrim is that both sides have heroes and villains among their ranks. General Tellius is borderline racist, and Ulfric is racist. Both of them have reasons they think justify mass murder in the name of their cause. One side is a dying, corrupt Empire that was born from ambition and cruelty. On the other is a nationalistic band of religious extremists. Both sides are being played by a faction that literally wants to destroy the world. Ultimately, the Elder Scrolls franchise is not a great place to look for moral clarity.

[76561198027586553]

the whole empire vs stormcloak thing is a lot bigger than bad traits for certain individuals.

stormcloaks are absolute idiots considering the intent to ban talos came straight from the thalmor, yet they target the empire instead. the empire didn't want to give up talos worship any more than the stormcloaks do, yet apparently to those stormcloak morons it makes total sense to throw your already limited military force against the empire instead of the thalmor.

let's pretend the emporer and empire, during the great war with the thalmor, had the exact mindset of the stormcloaks, i'm sure they would've preferred death instead of any kind of deal. what good does dying instead of striking the white gold concordat do? talos worship would've been banned anyway, with or without the concordat.

at least the empire striking that treaty allows hope for future coup planning. planning that could be happening in skyrim right now if stormcloaks didn't have more fingers than brain cells.

what exactly is ulfric's game plan after he throws out the empire from skyrim? he'll have an all time low number of troops due to his fighting with the legion, and the thalmor will be able to snuff them out like me stepping on a bug if they desired to. i'm sure they'll truly have their independent skyrim once they're all dead from angering the thalmor.

even if the stormcloaks and empire teamed up, i'm pretty sure the thalmor would still claim an easy victory if an outburst of talos worship spread nationwide. if thalmor are strong enough to cripple the empire right on the empire's home turf, i don't see them standing a chance even if the stormcloaks were smart enough to see who the real enemy is.

ideally, the races of men should be banding together in hopes to overthrow the thalmor, not fighting each other like the thalmor want them to.

i will always side with the empire as a result. if the stormcloaks are too stupid to know who their real enemy is, then they deserve to get the snot beaten out of them.

even after the markarth incident where ulfric got betrayed by the thalmor, he still decides to fight the empire instead. to call ulfric an absolute moron would be understating it.

[RyD]

Originally posted by Grim Dolo:

Ulfric is not replaced by Stone-fist. He's replaced by Brunwulf Free-Winter.
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Brunwulf_Free-Winter

Even then, I'm NOT changing my opinion whatsoever, because what he is doing WILL backfire, look at the event when you join the thieves guild. You lose a merchant because the the targets are the VERY TWO RACES that HATE each other. That is going to happen on a city wide scale in Windhelm due to Brunwulf's ignorance on the reason why they are separate.

[RyD]

Originally posted by Jackkel Dragon:

I think the reason people tend to side with the Empire is because it's at least making an attempt to be welcoming and cosmopolitan. The Stormcloaks use nationalism and religion as an excuse to attempt borderline genocide. Meanwhile, the Empire admits that Tiber Septim was a conquering warlord that used a superweapon to bend people to his will, and tries to make up for that. (Though deifying him as Talos in the official state religion does make things a bit awkward for non-Nords, which is why that was changed when the Aldmeri Dominion defeated the Empire.)

As for the specific examples of bad Imperial leaders, keep in mind that the Empire as of Skyrim (the game) is a weak, corrupt government that threw people like Tellius (who dislikes Nord customs) at Skyrim to try to fix it. The people who become jarls in Imperial Skyrim are those who supported the war effort, not people who embody moral virtues. Thus the crime lord whose business is best suited to a united Empire is going to take charge in Imperial Riften, because she's the next most powerful person in town after the Stormcloak jarl.

(It doesn't help in the metagame that documents in the main quest suggest that the nationalistic, theocratic Aldmeri Dominion is using the Stormcloak rebellion as a way to weaken reality and thus destroy the universe. Makes things a bit awkward, since my stuff is in the universe.)

Edit: I can't believe I missed this bit:

The message here is: take a look at yourself, and the people you support, before making a conclusion about someone else.

I could really say the same to you. The entire point of the Civil War questline in Skyrim is that both sides have heroes and villains among their ranks. General Tellius is borderline racist, and Ulfric is racist. Both of them have reasons they think justify mass murder in the name of their cause. One side is a dying, corrupt Empire that was born from ambition and cruelty. On the other is a nationalistic band of religious extremists. Both sides are being played by a faction that literally wants to destroy the world. Ultimately, the Elder Scrolls franchise is not a great place to look for moral clarity.

HE IS NOT RACIST! I just explained why they are sperate in my other comment.

[RyD]

Originally posted by Special Agent Gretchin:

the whole empire vs stormcloak thing is a lot bigger than bad traits for certain individuals.

stormcloaks are absolute idiots considering the intent to ban talos came straight from the thalmor, yet they target the empire instead. the empire didn't want to give up talos worship any more than the stormcloaks do, yet apparently to those stormcloak morons it makes total sense to throw your already limited military force against the empire instead of the thalmor.

let's pretend the emporer and empire, during the great war with the thalmor, had the exact mindset of the stormcloaks, i'm sure they would've preferred death instead of any kind of deal. what good does dying instead of striking the white gold concordat do? talos worship would've been banned anyway, with or without the concordat.

at least the empire striking that treaty allows hope for future coup planning. planning that could be happening in skyrim right now if stormcloaks didn't have more fingers than brain cells.

what exactly is ulfric's game plan after he throws out the empire from skyrim? he'll have an all time low number of troops due to his fighting with the legion, and the thalmor will be able to snuff them out like me stepping on a bug if they desired to. i'm sure they'll truly have their independent skyrim once they're all dead from angering the thalmor.

even if the stormcloaks and empire teamed up, i'm pretty sure the thalmor would still claim an easy victory if an outburst of talos worship spread nationwide. if thalmor are strong enough to cripple the empire right on the empire's home turf, i don't see them standing a chance even if the stormcloaks were smart enough to see who the real enemy is.

ideally, the races of men should be banding together in hopes to overthrow the thalmor, not fighting each other like the thalmor want them to.

i will always side with the empire as a result. if the stormcloaks are too stupid to know who their real enemy is, then they deserve to get the snot beaten out of them.

even after the markarth incident where ulfric got betrayed by the thalmor, he still decides to fight the empire instead. to call ulfric an absolute moron would be understating it.

He can't attack the Thalmor directly, because he's not an idiot. If he did, then they can just tell the Empire to attack him, forcing him to fight a two front war. He's not stupid. And, what's more, how would YOU like it if your family and friends and loved ones were being dragged out in the middle of the night, and the only thing can hope to do to free them was to break the law? (The imperial guards do this in game.) I'm sorry, but I'm not going to just sit on my hands and let those bastards do this willy nilly.

[RyD]

Before anyone else makes another comment, think about what YOU would do if a loved one or friend of yours faced Thorald's fate in the quest Missing in Action. Think about that, and come back to me when you do have an answer.

[76561198027586553]

Originally posted by rndunham:

He can't attack the Thalmor directly, because he's not an idiot. If he did, then they can just tell the Empire to attack him, forcing him to fight a two front war. He's not stupid. And, what's more, how would YOU like it if your family and friends and loved ones were being dragged out in the middle of the night, and the only thing can hope to do to free them was to break the law? (The imperial guards do this in game.) I'm sorry, but I'm not going to just sit on my hands and let those bastards do this willy nilly.

he is stupid though. by kicking the empire out of skyrim, what makes him think the thalmor are suddenly going to hand over skyrim's independence and legalize talos worship? he'll have fought for all that for nothing.

seriously, what good does this war do? the empire is not the enemy, the thalmor are. the thalmor could squish what's left of the stormcloaks like a bug if they desire to.

[RyD]

Originally posted by Special Agent Gretchin:

Originally posted by rndunham:

He can't attack the Thalmor directly, because he's not an idiot. If he did, then they can just tell the Empire to attack him, forcing him to fight a two front war. He's not stupid. And, what's more, how would YOU like it if your family and friends and loved ones were being dragged out in the middle of the night, and the only thing can hope to do to free them was to break the law? (The imperial guards do this in game.) I'm sorry, but I'm not going to just sit on my hands and let those bastards do this willy nilly.

he is stupid though. by kicking the empire out of skyrim, what makes him think the thalmor are suddenly going to hand over skyrim's independence and legalize talos worship? he'll have fought for all that for nothing.

seriously, what good does this war do? the empire is not the enemy, the thalmor are.

To be honest, I don't the thalmor are going to have a choice. The Sea of Ghosts is almost as violent as Cape Horn, Hammerfell is already independent and they have a STRONG navy. It would benefit Skyrim MORE if they ally with Hammerfell, and High Rock does not share a border with Cyrodiil. They might prove allies as well with magic. I don't even think the Dominion have enough troops to occupy Skyrim, and even then, the Nords WILL NOT STAND FOR IT. They would rebel almost immediately AGAIN. Get the notion that the thalmor will invade full force out of your head, and instead think about the amount of logistics and manpower involved, the rammifications of it, the fact that they lost ALL of their troops at the battle of the red ring, the challenges they would face, AND the fact that they have been attacking Talos worshippers for a long time already, among other things, and think about what the Stormcloaks can do to make any occupation pretty much impossible, Etc etc. And come back to me when you have thought all this through.

[76561198027586553]

Originally posted by rndunham:

Originally posted by Special Agent Gretchin:

he is stupid though. by kicking the empire out of skyrim, what makes him think the thalmor are suddenly going to hand over skyrim's independence and legalize talos worship? he'll have fought for all that for nothing.

seriously, what good does this war do? the empire is not the enemy, the thalmor are.

To be honest, I don't the thalmor are going to have a choice. The Sea of Ghosts is almost as violent as Cape Horn, Hammerfell is already independent and they have a STRONG navy. It would benefit Skyrim MORE if they ally with Hammerfell, and High Rock does not share a border with Cyrodiil. They might prove allies as well with magic. I don't even think the Dominion have enough troops to occupy Skyrim, and even then, the Nords WILL NOT STAND FOR IT. They would rebel almost immediately AGAIN. Get the notion that the thalmor will invade full force out of your head, and instead think about the amount of logistics and manpower involved, the rammifications of it, the fact that they lost ALL of their troops at the battle of the red ring, the challenges they would face, AND the fact that they have been attacking Talos worshippers for a long time already, among other things, and think about what the Stormcloaks can do to make any occupation pretty much impossible, Etc etc. And come back to me when you have thought all this through.

the thalmor has been weakened since the battle of the red ring of course, but that was 26 years ago. if they didn't still have a military power to be reckoned with even at that time, the emporer wouldn't have agreed to the concordat shortly after to begin with.

that being said, the stormcloaks themselves would be weakened too after overthrowing the empire from skyrim. i have more faith in the thalmor's military might than the stormcloaks given that the thalmor have had 21 years (hammerfell) to recover. a few thalmor losses over angry talos worshippers isn't going to leave much of a dent.

i agree completely when it comes to forging alliances with the other provinces in order to overthrow the thalmor, the stormcloaks aren't going to be able to do it alone. they've forged no such alliance with other provinces and are vulnerable directly after throwing the empire out, to which yes, i fully believe the thalmor would steamroll them as a direct response before any such alliances could be forged.

i have no faith in stormcloaks whatsoever as they're operating on knee-jerk emotion rather than long term planning. planning is what wins large scale wars like this, not raw emotion.

all i'm saying is, the real enemy here is the thalmor. i want them overthrown as much as anyone else. hopefully we'll get a follow up to these events in the next ES game.

[Jackkel Dragon]

Originally posted by rndunham:

Before anyone else makes another comment, think about what YOU would do if a loved one or friend of yours faced Thorald's fate in the quest Missing in Action. Think about that, and come back to me when you do have an answer.

I've seen children put into cages using the same logic that the Stormcloaks use to justify deporting Dunmer and Argonians. (Even though many of the Dunmer literally have nowhere to return to, since Vvardenfell is covered in ash after Vivec vanished and the Red Mountain erupted.) Does that count?

[Doc Holiday]

I'm gonna side with the Empire now

[RyD]

Originally posted by Doc Holiday:

I'm gonna side with the Empire now

I will gladly chop your head off on the battlefield. See you in Sovngarde, or Oblivion.

[RyD]

Originally posted by Special Agent Gretchin:

Originally posted by rndunham:

To be honest, I don't the thalmor are going to have a choice. The Sea of Ghosts is almost as violent as Cape Horn, Hammerfell is already independent and they have a STRONG navy. It would benefit Skyrim MORE if they ally with Hammerfell, and High Rock does not share a border with Cyrodiil. They might prove allies as well with magic. I don't even think the Dominion have enough troops to occupy Skyrim, and even then, the Nords WILL NOT STAND FOR IT. They would rebel almost immediately AGAIN. Get the notion that the thalmor will invade full force out of your head, and instead think about the amount of logistics and manpower involved, the rammifications of it, the fact that they lost ALL of their troops at the battle of the red ring, the challenges they would face, AND the fact that they have been attacking Talos worshippers for a long time already, among other things, and think about what the Stormcloaks can do to make any occupation pretty much impossible, Etc etc. And come back to me when you have thought all this through.

the thalmor has been weakened since the battle of the red ring of course, but that was 26 years ago. if they didn't still have a military power to be reckoned with even at that time, the emporer wouldn't have agreed to the concordat shortly after to begin with.

that being said, the stormcloaks themselves would be weakened too after overthrowing the empire from skyrim. i have more faith in the thalmor's military might than the stormcloaks given that the thalmor have had 21 years (hammerfell) to recover. a few thalmor losses over angry talos worshippers isn't going to leave much of a dent.

i agree completely when it comes to forging alliances with the other provinces in order to overthrow the thalmor, the stormcloaks aren't going to be able to do it alone. they've forged no such alliance with other provinces and are vulnerable directly after throwing the empire out, to which yes, i fully believe the thalmor would steamroll them as a direct response before any such alliances could be forged.

i have no faith in stormcloaks whatsoever as they're operating on knee-jerk emotion rather than long term planning. planning is what wins large scale wars like this, not raw emotion.

all i'm saying is, the real enemy here is the thalmor. i want them overthrown as much as anyone else. hopefully we'll get a follow up to these events in the next ES game.

Come back to me once you really think about what I said. It's been stated in books in the game that the Dominion lost their ENTIRE ARMY man for man. Yet, that pisspot COWARD of an Emperor, who wanted a peace treaty, signed what was essentially the SAME ULTIMATUM BEFORE THE WAR, and ultimately, the death knell of the Empire. It's no longer Talos' empire, it's a disgraced vassal is what it is. AND, 26 YEARS to recover, yet they did NOTHING! If he was serious about the war, HE WOULD HAVE GONE ON! INSTEAD, HE PUT THE LAST NAIL IN THE COFFIN!