Is Ulfric Stormcloak worthy to be a leader (for skills)?

[Elaini]

Well, we all know that Ulfric, along with quite a few people want Ulfric to be a "true High King", because apparently:

1) Empire isn't interested to fight the Thalmor.
2) Under the Imperial rule the High King cannot really control the business of the province as he truly would like.

I've made a few points about his leader skills before, but I thought "why not make a topic of it's own about it"?

Well, first off, #1 is simply false. Both Tullius and Rikke hate the guts of Thalmor just as much as Ulfric does, and it's something they definitely agree on. It's just that Emperor Titus and some of the Imperial jarls such as Balgruuf didn't have much of a choice than to accept the White-Gold Concordat at the time being, if they wished to keep the Empire intact, and thus strong enough to survive.

#2 is mainly to ensure that the High King enforces the law and order of the Empire, and unfortunately for the time being it also needs following the terms of the Concordat.

Talos worshippers need to do their prayers in secret, but as the priestess of Talos says in Riften after the civil war if the Empire wins: as long as Talos is kept in hearts, he would still prevail. Even if you joined the Legion, you can still build a secret Talos shrine for Hearthfire homes. Even Elisif wishes you to visit a shine of Talos for Torygg, because she can't.

All that the Skyrim inhabitants would have to do is wait until the Empire has a victory over Thalmor and the practise is no longer outlawed. But Ulfric believes that the change will never come.

What I think is the major mistake of Ulfric was failing to realize that to defeat the Thalmor, Empire needs to stop fighting within itself (to be precise: within Skyrim) first. The civil war takes a lot of energy, time and people, when those things could be directed and carefully planned against the Thalmor, in great numbers.

When the Empire is fractured, it will weaken that power against the Thalmor, and buys Thalmor unreasonably much time to do as they please without even needing to engage a new conflict.

Ulfric, like the Stormcloaks that follow him, are rash and driven by their emotions, ignoring the long term planning that is the way of the Empire. His leading decisions, as well as his personal, prove this. Killing Torygg was the last straw. He did something undoable that set a chain of events which cannot be stopped. The conflict cannot be stopped.

No, Skyrim doesn't have to belong to the Empire. Either way, a union of some kind needs to be done to defeat the Thalmor, even if it was Cyrodiil and independent Skyrim. But if the Stormcloaks won the independence for Skyrim it would cause wounds and bad blood that take too long to heal for the union to happen. It's better off that if Skyrim is made as a separate country, it happens peacefully.

So being a part of the Empire is the best solution of union for now.

So in a nutshell, Ulfric's major flaws are being:

- Short sighted
- Rash and driven by emotions

Definitely not qualities of someone who's worthy to be a leader. He's endangering both the Empire and his own Stormcloaks with his actions.

[ReallyMeanGoldfish]

He is also an oathbreaker and ambitious. He pledged himself to study with the Greybeards, In order to study with the Greybeards, one has to forego a regular life. He probably did it just so he could learn the Thu'um.
As soon as war breaks out; he quits his study and new lifestyle to fight the Domnion. This also plays into his rashness if he just decided to study with the Greybeards on a whim. No forethought to the possiblility that he would be Jarl of Windhelm.
On a seperate note, is Jarl necessarily hereditary? If so, he would almost surely have had a brother/sister (probably older) would was in line to succeed the Jarl. His father was Jarl but died either right before or during the war. Any clarification on that ? I'm kind of fuzzy.
They mention a moot. In Viking society, both Jarls and Kings were elected for a term ; at least for a while. The idea of a king being born into the job was introduced after they began expanding.

[hodie]

If Hammerfell could fight the Thalmor to a standstill an independant Skyrim could also.

[Elaini]

Originally posted by hodie:

If Hammerfell could fight the Thalmor to a standstill an independant Skyrim could also.

Perhaps - but as I stated, I think that the separation would then have to happen peacefully and in good terms with the Empire, should they need Skyrim's alliance in defeating Thalmor. Having a civil war doesn't really help the matter of domestic - or later foreign - relations.

The civil war is needless and doing nothing but harm. All because of short sightedness of one man, and the whims of Thalmor.

Ulfric may want independence for Skyrim, but started on a wrong foot.

[hodie]

Ulfric's skills as a leader are unquestionable, that he can hold together his 'rebels' against the Empire and inspire the populace to resist is testament to this. An independant Skyrim doesn't necessarily mean a weakened Empire in the long-term, the Thalmor will always remain the common enemy, something that would likely overcome any resentment between Skyrim, Empire and Hammerfell. Consequently the Empire could be labelled 'short-sighted' with its attempt to pacify the Stormcloaks by force.

EDIT: Your edit.

[Elaini]

Originally posted by hodie:

An independant Skyrim doesn't necessarily mean a weakened Empire in the long-term, the Thalmor will always remain the common enemy, something that would likely overcome any resentment between Skyrim, Empire and Hammerfell.

Is it simple as that after war, or after many people have been killed, or the damage that has been done?

[Panda]

You fail to take into account what was already sacrificed in the Great War. The Nords fought for their freedom (it was the Aldmeri who invaded) and despite these sacrifices, they are hunted down in their own lands by the Thalmor and Hamerfell abandoned even after they suffered heavy casualties (under Imperial orders, no less) to smash Arannelya's armies so the Imperial City could be reclaimed without fear of Arannelya hitting them from behind.

In the face of that, saying Ulfric is emotional is a vast simplification of what the Nords who were in the war feel. Of course, everyone had their own reasons to join the Great War and Ulfric, and I assume a lot of the other Nords, fought for their right to worship Talos among other things; the White-Gold Concordat would definitely feel like betrayal to them. Sure, they could still worhsip Talos in secret but why do they have to? It's their land.

Imagine aliens telling Americans they can't watch TV in their houses or anywhere and the police doing nothing when alien elite squads hunt down and carry off Americans to be imprisoned or worse. Does it make it okay because they can still watch TV in secret anyway? Or is it okay for now because the Americans have to be united when they eventually rise up to defeat the aliens. I mean, they're not hearing anything right now but surely it will come, right?

And oh, those American soldiers sent off to war to protect the right to watch TV and because the government didn't want to give the aliens the west coast when they demanded for it and also to avenge the American astronauts the aliens killed as an example? Yep, a lot of those soldiers died, especially when those soldiers in the west coast took out half of the alien armies over there so they can make sure there won't be any reinforcement when the Americans reclaim the east coast and the White House. Well, they have the White House and the east coast back now and they're totally looking at the long term here so it's okay to abandon the west coast to those aliens and tell the Americans not to watch TV anymore. Besides, the west coast was strong enough to fight off the aliens on their own anyway.

I'm not saying there's a right side here. There never is when it comes to war but making peace for the sake of peace, regardless of what is sacrificed and regardless of who gets stepped on, is not wise either, I think.

[Improper Use]

There is never a better time to claim more than what you normally could, then during a war/uprising/religious unrest.

His motivations are not really explained, but as far as a power grab goes, this is atypical.

[markdb92]

In my mind he isnt fit to lead skrim as only nords like him and when the other races see that successfully lead a revolt they may rise up and form theirs making skyrim easy targets to either imperials or the elves

[bob]

Since my current character it's a Dunmer, I'm gonna have to say he sucks hard.

[SpeedFreak1972]

Ullfric is probably a good leader however .... his points of view about anyone that isn't a Nord I really don't like and how about succession ... If Ullfric dies then what?

[Panda]

Originally posted by SpeedFreak:

Ullfric is probably a good leader however .... his points of view about anyone that isn't a Nord I really don't like and how about succession ... If Ullfric dies then what?

The Moot will meet and another Jarl will be made High King. The idea of the Moot works in theory but it requires the whole of Skyrim to be united first for it to really work. That's also why Elisif is still not High Queen. The Jarls are divided and there is no way for the Moot to agree on who to make High King/Queen.

[DustyBoooooones]

Hella

[ShinsFortress]

Originally posted by hodie:

Ulfric's skills as a leader are unquestionable, that he can hold together his 'rebels' against the Empire and inspire the populace to resist is testament to this. An independant Skyrim doesn't necessarily mean a weakened Empire in the long-term, the Thalmor will always remain the common enemy, something that would likely overcome any resentment between Skyrim, Empire and Hammerfell. Consequently the Empire could be labelled 'short-sighted' with its attempt to pacify the Stormcloaks by force.

EDIT: Your edit.

Well said. I thought the OP was rather leading. I particularly disliked the seeming empahis on the rebels emotional nature being a bad thing. Have we learnt nothing from history or from science fiction? Stifling emotions leads at best to a stagnant culture or at worst to an evil totalitarian state. We are humans. Most of the fictional Skyrim are human. Those that don't look it or are represented as a different 'race' still are basically human in terms of logic and behaviour, even if some are more specialised than others. It is after all a video game and needs to be readily understandable to it's customers. Us.

[Elaini]

Originally posted by ShinsFortress:

Well said. I thought the OP was rather leading. I particularly disliked the seeming empahis on the rebels emotional nature being a bad thing. Have we learnt nothing from history or from science fiction? Stifling emotions leads at best to a stagnant culture or at worst to an evil totalitarian state. We are humans. Most of the fictional Skyrim are human. Those that don't look it or are represented as a different 'race' still are basically human in terms of logic and behaviour, even if some are more specialised than others. It is after all a video game and needs to be readily understandable to it's customers. Us.

Well... rather than being leading on purpose, I just told how I see it.

[Jón]

The Stormcloaks only have a presence in Skyrim. That's one country. By kicking out the Imperials, they're essentially just weakening the only power that could even hope to fight the Thalmor.