The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

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xvii-Dietrich Nov 28, 2021 @ 11:14am
Which factions would the canonical dragonborn join?
On my current playthrough (for the 10th anniversay of ES5 :) ), I am playing the default, "canonical dragonborn", namely: minimal mods, default build, studded armor with the iron gauntles/helmet/boots, banded iron shield and steel broadsword. Basically what you would see in the trailer/posters. I'm trying to play the role too: so using lots of shouts, no looting Nord tombs, etc..

But what I'm wondering is: would that "canonical dragonborn" join any factions?

I mean, I guess he wouldn't take sides with the Empire (outlawing Talos seems wrong), and the Dark Brotherhood also seems a bit out of character. But what the Stormcloaks? Or the Companions? Or Bards' College? Or any others?
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Showing 1-15 of 23 comments
alexander_dougherty Nov 28, 2021 @ 11:25am 
Well it's not the canonical Dragonborn just your take on it.

But if you aren't looting Nord Tombs then the beginning of Mages College is problematic, and the acquiring the pieces of Wulthrad is another problem, and come to think of it Thieves Guild requires to go into at least one tomb... As does the Civil War... And both the Dawnguard and Volkihar Vampires.....

So that just leaves the Dark Brotherhood.....
slayor3000 Nov 28, 2021 @ 11:35am 
That is something you really have to decide as: "The Nords believe Dragonborn represent the end of all of Skyrim's foes."
So who are Skyrims foes? The Stormcloaks sound a good choice or do you think Ulfric is just power hungry.
The Companions are "the Warriors of Skyrim" but after centuries of being basically "leaderless" many ideals have changed.
Bards College, I see no problem with.
Which factions would be the most use to helping return Skyrim to the Nords.
258789553873 Nov 28, 2021 @ 12:24pm 
Well, its obvious from the trailers you're a nord warrior who uses shouts. The three 'main' questlines would clearly be canon (strangely, the trailer for dawnguard suggests the dragonborn becomes a vampire).

Then again, the very first book you run into says that the dragonborn can be any race, retconning the old lore that the dragonborn had to be descended from tiber septim to be dragonborn. Then again, they may be a necessary retcon seeing as the septim bloodline is no more, thus dragonborn shouldn't exist anymore. Of course, there are other dragonborn in sovngarde, and they're clearly all nords. Though to my knowledge, everyone in sovngarde is a nord. Perhaps non-nord dragonborn don't get to go to sovngarde?

It should also be noted that its heavily implied that the main character of Oblivion did all the faction quests and even the dlcs. In fact, its canonical that you meet him in Skyrim, and he hints at all of this. I don't know much about the mc of Morrowind, all I've heard is that the character is said to have traveled to akavir after the storyline of Morrowind ended. Who knows what they'll say about the Last Dragonborn in the next game. Honestly, it probably won't be until that comes out that we know what's canon. All we know so far is that NEITHER side's victory in the civil war is canon; the canon ending is the truce you help make during Season Unending, even though you can continue the civil war questline after doing that (its what I did on my first playthrough, I opted to save the Civil War quest for after the main storyline, seeing as the fate of the entire world seemed to be a bit more important).
Originally posted by IXBlackWolfXI:
Then again, they may be a necessary retcon seeing as the septim bloodline is no more, thus dragonborn shouldn't exist anymore.
Reman Emperors were Dragonborn, this was stated in books in Oblivion, and they were Cyrodiilic (probably Imperials).... they predated the Septims
Poil Nov 29, 2021 @ 2:21am 
Well if the dragonborn can become the emperor then the dark brotherhood is an excellent choice, as well as the companions for the "honor" (the nords highly respect them and dragonborn would just retire from being harbinger when entering politics) and side with imperials for the legitimacy. Shout the thalmor off the face of Tamriel.
Originally posted by Poil:
Well if the dragonborn can become the emperor then the
That's a mod, not canon.
no1schmo Nov 29, 2021 @ 8:14pm 
Originally posted by alexander_dougherty:
Well it's not the canonical Dragonborn just your take on it.

But if you aren't looting Nord Tombs then the beginning of Mages College is problematic, and the acquiring the pieces of Wulthrad is another problem, and come to think of it Thieves Guild requires to go into at least one tomb... As does the Civil War... And both the Dawnguard and Volkihar Vampires.....

So that just leaves the Dark Brotherhood.....

The Dark Brotherhood LIVE in a Nordic Tomb. But really, while the Nords talk about their "honored dead", they also hate draugr and have no issues killing them. It's implied the draugr were members of the dragon cult, whom the Nords consider like ancient enemies or traitors, yet clearly there are draugr who were not. There's really no consistent lore regarding them, so I see no problem looting their tombs. Heck, in one tomb, we can fight the ghost of a man whose soul is Sovngarde; did he come down for 5 minutes for that fight, or does he have two souls, or what?

Originally posted by alexander_dougherty:
Originally posted by IXBlackWolfXI:
Then again, they may be a necessary retcon seeing as the septim bloodline is no more, thus dragonborn shouldn't exist anymore.
Reman Emperors were Dragonborn, this was stated in books in Oblivion, and they were Cyrodiilic (probably Imperials).... they predated the Septims

Yup, you are correct. While Oblivion made clear that having Septim's blood was important for the Dragonfire (although that too predates Tiber Septim), that's not the same thing as Dragonborn; none of his relatives were actually Dragonborn, as far as I recall. So it's two separate issues, the importance of his blood and him having the soul of a dragon, that just so happened to coincide in one man.

Honestly, I'm going to guess that the only things that end up being canon are the end fights of the main game and both DLCs and MAYBE one of the Civil War questlines. However, the civil war aspect was actually written fairly well, as both sides have good and bad points--would the ultimate Nord hero fight against the Empire created by Talos? I dunno. I think the game, overall, implies that Ulfric was wrong, even if he meant well (at least judging by his comments in Sovngarde, and the game basically tells us that the entire rebellion is a Thalmor plot to weaken the Empire before the Dominion invades again). But I wouldn't be surprised if the next game refuses to take a side on this (old-school players will remember the mental gymnastics Bethesda went through to avoid taking a specific side on the ending to Daggerfall). And hey, the next game could be in the past, who knows?
258789553873 Nov 29, 2021 @ 8:29pm 
What 'good points' do either side have? The empire is now just puppets to a racist cult that literally wants to destroy the world! Ulfric on the other hand, clearly just started the way to try and become high king (the 'great war' actually happend 20 years before the start of the game, and in fact the only thing that preceded it was Toryg winning the moot, and keep in mind, by all accounts he was a stormcloak supporter himself). Its also pretty obvious that Ulfric is racist, and so are his 'stormcloaks'. Just listen to what they yell as they're fighting. They never ever say 'for Talos', they only mention Ulfric and how 'skyrim is for the nords'.

The only thing I can think of that's likable about either of them is that the empire clearly isn't racist (even if they're currently under the thumb of another racist faction). Besides, the empire united has a better chance of fighting off the aldmeri dominion than each nation does on its own. Skyrim seceding isn't helping to stop the thalmor, it just gives them less resistance. Also, keep in mind, they also have both Valenwood and Elsweyr on their side, if Skyrim secedes, then the empire is just Cyrodiil and High Rock, the former of which is already under Thalmor control and in fact already lost a war against them when they were at their strongest. What, does Ulfric think that Skyrim alone can fight off an alliance of three (or four if you count cyrodiil) nations? Does he really think he could beat them, and right after fighting off cyrodiil? Yeah, hammerfell did it, but they didn't have to drive the empire out first. Besides, the dominion had just conducted a war right before that, so they were weakened in that circumstance. Now, it would be the other way around, with the aldmeri having had time to recover while Skyrim has just gone through a bloody civil war. What Ulfric's doing is stupid, and puppets to the thalmor or not, a united empire is the only hope the world has to stop the dominion from literally destroying the world. Ulfric is selfish, back-stabbing, and obviously short-sighted. And all this just so he can be high king? Really? Yeah, the empire may not be ideal, but they're the best chances the world has, and besides, they're not ulfric, so that's another plus.
no1schmo Nov 29, 2021 @ 8:49pm 
"Literally wants to destroy the world"? Imma need a citation on that. The Altmer think they are superior and deserve to rule, as elves once did in the old times, before the Atmorans came; I am not aware of any desire to destroy the world.

The racism of Ulfric and his Stormcloaks is left deliberately unclear. I mean, if he's so racist, why did he let my High Elf butt into his army? Why does he not clear out the Grey Quarter? Speaking of which, the Dunmer there complain about being discriminated against, but the High Elf merchant can be asked about that and outright says it's their own fault for refusing to try and fit in, where she has no problems (and keep in mind the Stormcloaks have far more reason to hate a High Elf, one with known criminal connections to boot, than Dark Elves, who are basically their neighbors and have been for millennia). There IS racism, no doubt, but how much of that is from Ulfric, or is official policy, versus some jerks just being jerks, is left open. Furthermore, if Ulfric just wanted to be High King, he probably could have gotten there by working with the Thalmor as an asset; instead, he does the opposite, and launches a long-shot war? Seems like a terrible strategy, to be honest; 4 holds (if we even count Winterhold as a real hold) against 5, backed by the Empire, and any Thalmor in the area? And Ulfric, if killed, goes to Sovngarde; he died honorably, and if I recall, admits he was wrong--he truly believed he was doing what was best for Skyrim, and just acted foolishly.

That said, the Empire is corrupt and short-sighted too. They abandoned Morrowind AND Hammerfell to save their own butts, yet aggressively attempt to enforce Thalmor demands against Skyrim, knowingly leading to discontent and division, instead of trying to drag their feet and play dumb. They have no plan to deal with the Dominion, as far as we know; they just lick elf boot and hope for the best, but gladly kill their own fellow, uh, Empire-men at their behest. I mean, the Thalmor openly admit that the war is merely "paused", that they have every intention of conquering the Empire, and what does the Empire do? Nothing! Nay, worse they nothing! They impose the will of the Thalmor against their own people!

And honestly, is it necessarily worse for multiple, allied countries to fight together against a threat as opposed to an Empire rife with division and hatred? Ulfric knows the Thalmor are the biggest threat and says so upon winning the war; he'd work with the Empire, and the Redguards, to stop the Elves. But as equals, not as subordinates stripped of their own identity and religion. You say the Empire is the best bet to stop the Dominion, but, as you also mentioned, they already failed. Maybe the Empire's time is past, maybe there's too much greed, corruption, and decadence, to fight a real war against a real enemy. Heck, is the Empire even legitimate anymore? It's not the Septim bloodline, so why should anyone care what they think, besides fear of tyrannical oppression?

Please note, I am not actually saying Ulfric is right. I am just throwing out my thoughts as to why both sides have points, and how it's not an easy decision to make; abandon Talos, or fight his own creation? Perpetuate an arguably failed Empire, or accelerate it's decline and possibly hand humanity over to Elven overlords? Stick by your beliefs and principles at all costs, or sacrifice that which is most important to you in order to make the "pragmatic" choice?
258789553873 Nov 29, 2021 @ 9:56pm 
The Thalmor's shtick is that they think by destroying the world (which they do have a plan for, by destroying these variouis pillars that hold their universe together, literally) will grant all elves immortality. Seriously. Everyone agrees their plan to destroy the world would work, but there's no proof it would grant anyone immortality.

As for Morrowind and Hammerfell, Morrowind seceeded shortly after the Oblivion crisis since the empire had done nothing for them (they only joined shortly before the crisis happened too). Hammerfall though, could've been said to have been betrayed by the empire. Also, keep in mind that Valenwood and Elsweyr were also a part of the empire not that long ago. So three provinces left them, two for the aldmeri dominion, then hammerfell seceedes, and now Skyrim is trying to do the same.

Also, if you talk to the Jarls that are put in place by Ulfric, you'll find that they openly admit themselves that he can't be trusted. Dengeir just straight-up claims that he'd rather be ruled by 'the devil he knows' than one he does not.

Regarding the dark elves, you do realize that in-game books make it pretty clear that they weren't confined to the grey quarter until recently, right? It wasn't even known as the grey quarter. There's even an abandoned monument dedicated to them not far from the city that has clearly fallen into ruin. So, they integrated into Windhelm society and were even initially welcomed, and now Ulfric has confined them to a ghetto which he doesn't even bother to protect. He's also having his men only protect NORD caravans, leaving all others on their own.

Also, all of the jarls he puts into power clearly shouldn't hold their position. Two of them clearly have shady associations (one is even involved in the TG questline). Then there's dengeir, who is overly paranoid and clearly going senile. Oh, and lets not forget about Skald, who is an open racist that sends you on a mission to kill a giant purely because he likes them being killed. The empire even had to tell him to not do that without justification, and as soon as they're gone he gleefully points out this fact right before he tells you to go kill a giant that as far as you know did nothing wrong. The man's also a fanatic who doesn't even like having an imperial veteran in his town, even though he's clearly not in fighting shape anymore.

Of course, not all the imperial jarls are that likable either. The worst in my mind would have to Igmund, who is the only Jarl who lets the Thalmor in his palace. He's also obviously quite racist towards the reachmen. For the other three, we don't really get to know Idgrod all that well. Elisif is obviously just fighting for the empire because Ulfric killed her husband (who as I stated was an open supporter of his by all accounts, including hers). Then there's Balgruuf, who is an obvious fence-sitter. Yeah, he sides with the empire, but he's also a Talos worshipper whose not afraid to express his hatred for the thalmor and to their face at a party they invited him to! A lot of npcs claim Balgruuf probably sided with the empire just because he wasn't willing to betray anyone, no matter what. Keep in mind, that man tried to stay neutral as long as he could. Even when he was finally forced to pick a side, he's clearly quite hesitant to do it. Though come to think of it, regarding imperial jarls, there's also the one in Falkreath who is clearly just a spoiled prince. Of course, he came to power because Dengeir's mental faculties are clearly declining (contrary to Dengeir's claims that he got to be Jarl just because he's loyal to the Empire).

Either way, the empire isn't really a likeable option, they're just the least bad. Its like US elections, you don't pick the one you like, you just pick the one who's the least bad. Personally, I normally prefer to just ignore the Civil War questline (its not like its forced upon you anyway, heck, you have to start the main questline to do it even). When I do actually do it though, I normally side with the empire now. Siding with Ulfric just isn't as appealing after Trump. Besides, the Jarls overall are more likable anyway. The only thing I miss is I prefer the look of the stormcloak armor, but eh.
Originally posted by no1schmo:
Originally posted by alexander_dougherty:
Well it's not the canonical Dragonborn just your take on it.

But if you aren't looting Nord Tombs then the beginning of Mages College is problematic, and the acquiring the pieces of Wulthrad is another problem, and come to think of it Thieves Guild requires to go into at least one tomb... As does the Civil War... And both the Dawnguard and Volkihar Vampires.....

So that just leaves the Dark Brotherhood.....

The Dark Brotherhood LIVE in a Nordic Tomb.
Yes, but it's the only guild that doesn't have you looting them, someone else did that years ago.

Originally posted by no1schmo:
Originally posted by alexander_dougherty:
Reman Emperors were Dragonborn, this was stated in books in Oblivion, and they were Cyrodiilic (probably Imperials).... they predated the Septims

Yup, you are correct. While Oblivion made clear that having Septim's blood was important for the Dragonfire (although that too predates Tiber Septim), that's not the same thing as Dragonborn; none of his relatives were actually Dragonborn, as far as I recall.
The lore says something about them only becoming Dragonborn when they ascended the Throne, but a couple of civil wars would contradict that, so it's not exactly the most consistant thing.
Originally posted by no1schmo:
"Literally wants to destroy the world"? Imma need a citation on that.
It's a theory by an exwriter for Bethesda, apparently they want to undo creation and return to being Aedra like their ancestors. It involves destroy the various Towers and a few other undisclosed things..... It's been denied by Bethesda, but that means literally nothing.
Master Talon Nov 30, 2021 @ 5:06am 
The only things that actually Canon with the Dragonborn Story is the main game's story and the Dragonborn DLC's main story and killing Harkon at the end of the Dawngaurd main story
Last edited by Master Talon; Nov 30, 2021 @ 5:07am
slayor3000 Nov 30, 2021 @ 12:31pm 
Originally posted by Master Talon:
The only things that actually Canon with the Dragonborn Story is the main game's story and the Dragonborn DLC's main story and killing Harkon at the end of the Dawngaurd main story
Almost true but I go further because I do get a little puzzled sometimes by the constant use of the word "canon" for this game. The game has no canon unless you wish to pick a side and even then some things are contradictory.

"a general law, rule, principle, or criterion by which something is judged."
"a collection or list of sacred books accepted as genuine."

Each side views things differently. Nearly anything you may read has another book written by someone else that says the opposite.
Example is Orc lore. Two different stories of how Boethiah and Trinimac duelled.
Accounts of Orc tribes that existed well before Trinimac and Boethiahs encounter. Which is the truth? Even dates contradict themselves in the game.

So choose a side, Thalmor, Imperial etc and look at what is canon to them and you will see it is all contradictory.

Also over the DragonBorn - The original was Miraak an Atmoran.
The Atmorans that came to Tamriel were enslaved by the Ayelid. They later had a slave rebellion and eventually started the first Imperial Empire.
So the first Dragonborn was in reality an Imperial and not a Nord.
So if you want to play a "canonical" Dragonborn - choose Imperial.
alexander_dougherty Nov 30, 2021 @ 12:55pm 
Originally posted by slayor3000:
Almost true but I go further because I do get a little puzzled sometimes by the constant use of the word "canon" for this game. The game has no canon unless you wish to pick a side and even then some things are contradictory.

"a general law, rule, principle, or criterion by which something is judged."
"a collection or list of sacred books accepted as genuine."
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/canon
see 3C
"An accepted group or body of related works", given that the social standard is that the makers of a game/film define what is or isn't canon, this means Bethesda defines what is canon (God help us)
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Date Posted: Nov 28, 2021 @ 11:14am
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