Stormcloaks or Imperials: Who is right?

[He Who Yeets]

Okay so ive given it some thought and it seems to me at least that, while the stormcloaks are cool and all they might not be in the right, for the whole civil war business. For one, they are quite racist to anyone who isn't a pure blood Nord, whens the last time you saw a stormcloak NPC who wasn't a nord? Secondly, all they're really doing is weakening the Imperial army which is the only defence against everyones worst enemy... The Aldmeri Dominion (Thalmor essentially). But, it cant be ignored that the imperials are certainly not the beacon of justice as they once were, for example: at the start of the game you're taken to an execution but you didn't do anything other than cross a border and Lokir, your horse stealing brother in bonds, was also killed... for stealing a horse... i punched the Queen and was put in jail for a little bit, as well as this they've given in to the Thalmor demands and banned the worship of a well respected god despite nearly everyones outcry. So the question stands as more "which side is less wrong" rather than "Which side is right". Feel free to coment opinions or counter arguments.

[papajack_papajohn]

Both are wrong but you have to make the choice on who to pick whcih wrong side you want to be on...lol

[Collimation]

Nope. The Imperials are right. When you break into the Thalmor Embassy you discover a dossier of Ulfric Stormcloak that discusses his capture by the Thalmor and how they turned him into their agent. What we can be utterly certain about is that Ulfric is working with the Thalmor to separate Skyrim from the Empire so the Empire is stripped of a powerful province when the Aldmeri Dominion next attacks. The Empire couldn't stand against the Aldmeri WITH Skyrim in the last war, so how much weaker will they be without Skyrim next time? There is a also good chance that Ulfric is responsible for calling Alduin, as he is an ex-Greybeard who knows all about such things. An independent Skyrim is a weak Skyrim that has virtually no magical assets except for the College of Winterhold that everyone hates. When the Aldmeri conquer the Empire, they will come for that weakened Skyrim and pull it down with spells and force of arms that Skyrim on its own cannot resist. As the reincarnation of Tiber Septim it is your duty to hold your empire together and halt the ambitions of the haughty Elves.

[Raga]

Imperium does not want to loose the Nord's army against the Thalmor.
Supports the Battle-Born to avoid the events from the Hammerfell.
Stormcloaks fight for freedom even if the cost is death.

History:
The White-Gold Concordat and the End of the War

Although victorious, the Imperial armies were in no shape to continue the war. The entire remaining Imperial force was gathered in Cyrodiil, exhausted and decimated by the Battle of the Red Ring. Not a single legion had more than half its soldiers fit for duty. Two legions had been effectively annihilated, not counting the loss of the Eighth during the retreat from the Imperial City the previous year. Titus II knew that there would be no better time to negotiate peace, and late in 4E 175 the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion signed the White-Gold Concordat, ending the Great War.

The terms were harsh, but Titus II believed that it was necessary to secure peace and give the Empire a chance to regain its strength. The two most controversial terms of the Concordat were the banning of the worship of Talos and the cession of a large section of southern Hammerfell (most of what was already occupied by Aldmeri forces). Critics have pointed out that the Concordat is almost identical to the ultimatum the Emperor rejected five years earlier. However, there is a great difference between agreeing to such terms under the mere threat of war, and agreeing to them at the end of a long and destructive war. No part of the Empire would have accepted these terms in 4E 171, dictated by the Thalmor at swords-point. Titus II would have faced civil war. By 4E 175, most of the Empire welcomed peace at almost any price.

***
Epilogue: Hammerfell Fights On Alone

Hammerfell, however, refused to accept the White-Gold Concordat, being unwilling to concede defeat and the loss of so much of their territory. Titus II was forced to officially renounce Hammerfell as an Imperial province in order to preserve the hard-won peace treaty. The Redguards, understandably, looked on this as a betrayal. In this, the Thalmor certainly achieved one of their long-term goals by sowing lasting bitterness between Hammerfell and the Empire.

In the end, the heroic Redguards fought the Aldmeri Dominion to a standstill, although the war lasted for five more years and left southern Hammerfell devastated. The Redguards say that this proves that the White-Gold Concordat was unnecessary, and that if Titus II had kept his nerve, the Aldmeri could have been truly defeated by the combined forces of Hammerfell and the rest of the Empire. The truth of that assertion can, of course, never be known. But the Redguards should not forget the great sacrifice of Imperial blood - Breton, Nord, and Cyrodilic - at the Battle of the Red Ring that weakened the Dominion enough to allow the eventual Second Treaty of Stros M'kai in 4E 180 and the withdrawal of Aldmeri forces from Hammerfell.

There can be no doubt that the current peace cannot last forever. The Thalmor take the long view, as is proved by the sequence of events leading up to the Great War. All those who value freedom over tyranny can only hope that before it is too late, Hammerfell and the Empire will be reconciled and stand united against the Thalmor threat. Otherwise, any hope to stem the tide of Thalmor rule over all of Tamriel is dimmed.

[jancawa55]

Just like Trump and Clinton. Pick your ass-ole.

[Raga]

Collimation:
Many of the things you have written do not have any confirmation - it is only your interpretation.
The creators made all facts blurry enough to make none on the sides clearly better or worse.

Fact is that Ulfric was broken during the interrogation and gave the Thalmor information that he thought was vital to capturing the city (the city was captured before he was broken but the fact stays) - there is no written evudense even in Thalor Dossier that he is an agent.
He was released or they let him escape and manipulated into drascic actions against Empire.

I do not believe that there is a single being to command Alduin - and Ulfric has nothing to do with this dragon.

The Nords would not require the magic to deal with the Thalmor. The land, the climate, querilla tactic would be enough to deal tith them.
That would require a couple of months or years but Nords are pretty stubborn.
History shows that the enemy occupation is always costly and difficult.
Thalmor would devastate the land but would have retreat.
The fact that they support indirectly the continuation of the war shows that they are aware of it.

[alexander_dougherty]

Originally posted by Collimation:

There is a also good chance that Ulfric is responsible for calling Alduin, as he is an ex-Greybeard who knows all about such things.

What??????
Ulfric was never a Greybeard, let alone an ex-Greybeard.
Greybeards demand years of training, probably decades. Ulfric is a Jarl, you don't become a Jarl by spending years meditating ontop of a mountain.

Nords know shouts as part of their culture, they pass them down via family lines, usually parent to child. This is how Ulfric knows shouts.

[Falro the Great]

Originally posted by alexander_dougherty:

Originally posted by Collimation:

There is a also good chance that Ulfric is responsible for calling Alduin, as he is an ex-Greybeard who knows all about such things.

What??????
Ulfric was never a Greybeard, let alone an ex-Greybeard.
Greybeards demand years of training, probably decades. Ulfric is a Jarl, you don't become a Jarl by spending years meditating ontop of a mountain.

Nords know shouts as part of their culture, they pass them down via family lines, usually parent to child. This is how Ulfric knows shouts.

There is some dialogue that indicates that Ulfric was at least training to become a Greybeard.

[KLM88]

imperials weak and they try to kill ya,the choice is clear.

[He Who Yeets]

Originally posted by ...............:

imperials weak and they try to kill ya,the choice is clear.

seems about right

[velvetsanity]

Originally posted by Geralt's more manly friend:

Originally posted by ...............:

imperials weak and they try to kill ya,the choice is clear.

seems about right

Only because one overly ambitious captain wanted to try to look good in front of general Tullius

[Schanez]

The Empire is the good side, while the Stormcloaks are the bad side. In short words. This is why I think such.

Stormcloaks:
they fight the very organisation their diety, aka Talos created; Ulfric has no right to the throne and it's jsut his ambition that drives him onwards; he used Talos faith ban to excuse himself in front of all the nords, that are his possible allies, just to make it easier for himself to gather an army he intends to use to free Skyrim;

Empire:
they never trully enforced the Talos faith ban; they agreed to it only becaues they wished to end a war; as Lokir is stating, they were nice and lazy, content with allowing people to do their things; at least untill Ulftic murdered the previous King; yes, they are corrupt; and yes, they are not always just, but they are the ones in law;

Explenation:
the officer sends you to death, jsut to be sure; you were cought together with a ♥♥♥♥ thief and a traitor to the crown together with his most trusted bodyguards and officers; I belive it's safe to assume, she assumed you were a part of it; now back to Stormcloaks, imagine they free Skyrim from Empire's grasp, what happens next? Simple, Aldemari Dominion attacks weakened Skyrim, because it's not a part of the Empire anymore, so it's outside of the accepted peace treaty; and we know that Thalmor has an army that is capable of it; so not only do Stormcloaks risk a much worse fate for Skyrim, than the current one, but they also risk the entire Empire's future, as the Thalmor would have the opportunity to strike from a new direction.

[Mustafa Kemal Atahayk]

Imperials aren't right but Storm cloacks are stupid
Also lets be real what is any army to a dragonborn?

[velvetsanity]

Originally posted by EnderSRB:

Imperials aren't right but Storm cloacks are stupid
Also lets be real what is any army to a dragonborn?

Depends on the Dragonborn. To some (Miraak, for example) an army would just be cannon fodder. To others, comrades in arms. To still others, friends and family.

[alexander_dougherty]

Originally posted by Schanez:

The Empire is the good side, while the Stormcloaks are the bad side.

While I generally choose the Imperials, it is far too simplistic to say Imperials are good, Stormcloaks are bad. The Imperials have bad people and policies, and the stormcloaks have good people and policies.

The Thalmor have backed the Imperials into a corner, and they are making the best of a bad deal, until they can reject the White Gold Concordat. The Ulfric and the Stormcloaks know this, but they have collectively decided to throw a strop and rebel.

If they had just been patient and waited, the Imperials would have eventually have relegalised Talos worship.

[Raga]

Schanez:
Please listen or read his dialogue with Galmar.
He does not need to lie to him they are talkig from their hearts:

Galmar: "Balgruuf won't give us a straight answer."
Ulfric: "He's a true Nord. He'll come around."
Galmar: "Don't be so sure of that. We've intercepted couriers from Solitude. The Empire's putting a great deal of pressure on Whiterun."
Ulfric: "And what would you have me do?"
Galmar: "If he's not with us, he's against us."
Ulfric: "He knows that. They all know that."
Galmar: "How long are you going to wait?"
Ulfric: "You think I need to send Balgruuf a stronger message."
Galmar: "If by message you mean shoving a sword through his gullet."
Ulfric: "Taking his city and leaving him in disgrace would make a more powerful statement, don't you think?"
Galmar: "So we're ready to start this war in earnest then?"
Ulfric: "Soon."
Galmar: "I still say you should take them all out like you did Deadking Torygg."
Ulfric: "Torygg was merely a message to the other Jarls. Whoever we replace them with will need the support of our armies."
Galmar: "We're ready when you are."
Ulfric: "Things hinge on Whiterun. If we can take the city without bloodshed all the better. But if not..."
Galmar: "The people are behind you."
Ulfric: "Many I fear still need convincing."
Galmar: "Then let them die with their false kings."
Ulfric: "We've been soldiers a long time. We know the price of freedom. The people are still weighing things in their hearts."
Galmar: "What's left of Skyrim to wager?"
Ulfric: "They have families to think of."
Galmar: "How many of their sons and daughters follow your banner? We are their families."
Ulfric: "Well put, friend. Tell me, Galmar, why do you fight for me?"
Galmar: "I'd follow you into the depths of Oblivion, you know that."
Ulfric: "Yes, but why do you fight? If not for me, what then?"
Galmar: "I'll die before elves dictate the fates of men. Are we not one in this?"
Ulfric: "I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil. I fight for their wives and children, who's [sic] names I heard whispered in their last breaths. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight... because I must."
Galmar: "Your words give voice to what we all feel, Ulfric. And that's why you will be High King. But the day words are enough, will be the day when soldiers like us are no longer needed."
Ulfric: "I would gladly retire from the world were such a day to dawn."
Galmar: "Aye. But in the meantime, we have a war to plan."

Empire does not give a ... about Nords.
They only need their army against the Thalmor.
The only persone that cares about Nords on the Empire side is Rikke.

Here you have who is bad and who is good:
Ulfric: "This is it for you. Any last words before I send you to Oblivion?"
Tullius: "You realize this is exactly what they wanted."
Galmar: "What who wanted?"
Tullius: "The Thalmor. They stirred up trouble here. Forced us to divert needed resources and throw away good soldiers quelling this rebellion."
Ulfric: "It's a little more than a rebellion, don't you think?"
Galmar: "Heh."
Tullius: "We aren't the bad guys you know."
Ulfric: "Maybe not, but you certainly aren't the good guys."
Tullius: "Perhaps you're right. But then what does that make you?"
Ulfric: "You just said it yourself."
Galmar: "It makes us right."
Tullius: "And if I surrender?"
Ulfric: "The Empire I remember never surrendered."
Galmar: "That Empire is dead. And so are you."
Tullius: "So be it."